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#1 2005-06-26 10:59:32

rasat
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From: Finland, working in Romania
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Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

Dusty wrote:

I'm getting tired of WMI and am renewing my search for the perfect window manager once again. Every day I pray I will discover a window manager that will end this search in the same way that Arch ended my seach for the perfect Linux distribution.

http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?p=95872

The quote of Dusty is not something new but quite many users, I believe, do same shifting/searching for the perfect WM. This thread is NOT about comparing WMs and DEs but what do we want a WM to do? Can we use the same things what made Arch perfect also for a WM? Does it have to be a WM or can it instead be a PM (program manager)? What's an ideal whatever it would be?

EDIT
Let's try not to mention any WM/DE names. Here we want to discuss ideas not what a particular WM does.

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#2 2005-06-26 14:24:09

ozar
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From: USA
Registered: 2005-02-18
Posts: 1,681

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

rasat wrote:

This thread is NOT about comparing WMs and DEs but what do we want a WM to do? Can we use the same things what made Arch perfect also for a WM? Does it have to be a WM or can it instead be a PM (program manager)? What's an ideal whatever it would be?

You'll probably get a wide range of opinions on this, but I prefer those minimal WMs/DEs such as "bleep", "bleep", and even "bleep".  Lightweight, and not too flashy and with very few dependencies is good in my opinion.  I don't want to load any KDE/Gnome libs if I don't have to, and I want programs that don't depend on any particular WM/DE.

I reserve the right to add more comments after thinking it over some.    wink

Edited to comply with:

rasat wrote:

Let's try not to mention any WM/DE names, only options, features and styles we prefer.

    smile


oz

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#3 2005-06-26 14:29:53

iphitus
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

Tiling window manager. With support for not only tiling workspaces but regular ones. Must be scriptable. Would be good if it had pixmap theme support and antialiased fonts.

iphitus


Edited to remove a particular name...

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#4 2005-06-26 14:36:16

CyberTron
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From: Gotland ,Sweden
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Posts: 645
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

I like the way *** is going, light, fast and still alot of eyecandy (which doesn't take all my resources)

My perfect manager:
Configurable
Moduleable
light
fast
transparency (and other eyecandy)

EDIT: Edited big_smile


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

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#5 2005-06-26 14:48:49

rasat
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

Let's try not to mention any WM/DE names, only options, features and styles we prefer.

I have been using for awhile transparency windows instead of solid. It creates an interesting environment when getting rid of the divisions created by solid windows. My first thoughts of an ideal WM, it should be "windowless" far as possible thereby user manages programs instead of windows.

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#6 2005-06-26 16:17:40

sarah31
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From: Middle of Canada
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

It is kinda hard not to mention names and elicit the necessary responses. Imo  you cannot get the perfect WM or DE because in order for it to do or look the way you want will force a certain amount of bloat.

Again imo as soon as *nix users understand that "bloat" in inevitable then perhaps there will a move towards a "perfect" WM or DE. However, they will also have to accept that working together or collaborating may be one of the ways to get closer to "perfection".

Think of the graphical toolkits. There isn't really a nice one in the lot. I often wondered how good some of them could be if they just worked together. Too much choice can be overwhelming and people will often ignore all those other choices in order to stick with something they know.

(If you disagree with the graphical toolkits be in adequate isn't a good one then one only needs to look how often they are used to try and recreate the looks of other OSes such as Windows or the Aqua gui of OS X.)


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#7 2005-06-26 16:25:26

CyberTron
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From: Gotland ,Sweden
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

you are quite right in some ways sarah, *nix people have to work more together, do a sort of standard (like freedesktop.org is trying to do*)

osx is in many ways a perfect desktop as well as windows are ....this is because they feel complete, the programs look/behave the same and so on..

Linux, on the other hand, have the oportunity to change what ever you want, YOU decide, but there must be limit somewhere, maybe do a golden way between os-x way and linux way (meet halfway)

Have a common graphic toolkit and then a lot of different versions (modular?) of it. Then have a lot of different windowmanagers / desktop managers


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
Kernel 2.6.14-archck1  (selfcompiled)
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#8 2005-06-26 16:40:02

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

This has been discussed to death already.

Here, for example:
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=10768&start=0

though that's not the only thread.

Dusty

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#9 2005-06-26 16:42:53

Gullible Jones
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Registered: 2004-12-29
Posts: 4,863

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

Okay...

- Multiple focus modes (click, sloppy, semi-sloppy)
- Fast, easy, unobtrusive method for opening/selecting windows (no iconboxes that get overlapped by windows, for example)
- Does not require extensive configuration before it stops being an eyesore
- Allows docking of windows to each other, etc.
- Not a resource hog
- Fast and easy generation of complete menus

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#10 2005-06-26 22:52:02

Cam
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From: Brisbane, Aus
Registered: 2004-12-21
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

Allows docking of windows to each other, etc.

Ohhh, I like that one!

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#11 2005-06-26 23:31:48

Gullible Jones
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Registered: 2004-12-29
Posts: 4,863

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

IIRC, some WMs do that.

Also, related: adjustable level of resistance for moving windows past each other, ala Openbox.

And: eyecandy features should be OFF by default! By this, I don't mean ugly default theme... I just mean no transparency, dropshadows, etc. by default.

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#12 2005-06-27 03:20:57

rasat
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From: Finland, working in Romania
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

sarah31 wrote:

It is kinda hard not to mention names and elicit the necessary responses.

The problem what I have noticed in other similar threads when mentioning names, users who have not used the related WM cannot participate in the discussion. Also new ideas are not created when thinking is fixed to a particular WM. Einstein came up with his theory of relativity mainly because he didn't relate to existing theories wink .... thereby making it original to large extent. Same did Arch Linux. smile CRUX was there to give the idea only.

The point is, the perfect WM has to be developed. Myself I don't have the skill. But hopefully this type of discussion could be useful for someone who does. Once the ideas are created maybe there is an existing WM what can be used as a base.

PS.
What I also have in mind, is to find a perfect toolkit.

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#13 2005-06-27 06:02:42

iphitus
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Posts: 4,927

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

rasat: I think a search for a 'perfect' wm is futile.

Everyone has their own perception of what a 'perfect'
wm is. If we were to include everyone's idea of a perfect wm into one, it would be huge, which would conflict with some people's liking of lighter WMs.

For me, it'd be ion3 with pixmap themes + AA fonts, but not everyone out there likes tiling based window managers. I like it's configuration because of it's complexity, i can do things I can't do in any other window manager, whereas others here wouldnt want to mess in lua scripting to change settings for their WM and make it do certain things.

iphitus

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#14 2005-06-27 14:40:55

phrakture
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From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

my perfect WM will be self aware... just got a few minor bugs to work out, then SkyNet(TM) will be ready to go...

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#15 2005-06-27 15:58:09

cactus
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From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

Does that mean a robot from the future is going to come back, protect me, and help me configure my wm for maximal productivity, all the while shooting up a shopping mall?
All I can say is..I for one welcome our new window manager configuring, mall shooting, time travelling, robot overlords.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#16 2005-06-27 16:10:11

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

dun-dun, dun dun dun
dun-dun, dun dun dun
*cue brass section*

no i'll have that theme music in my head all day

Oh, and don't worry, I killed the time travelling robot, but I saved his arm and CPU for study - it's safe though

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#17 2005-06-27 18:24:57

keevn7
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From: Lancaster, OH, US
Registered: 2005-06-09
Posts: 206
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

Back when I used Fluxbox, Openbox, and etc, I always liked trying new WMs to see if I liked on more. Now that I have settled in with Xfce4 and its window manager, I look forward to new versions and not new WMs. So I think that I have found the perfect WM. wink

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#18 2005-06-27 18:38:39

Gullible Jones
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Registered: 2004-12-29
Posts: 4,863

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

I might be moving to XFCE4 myself, since GNOME is suffering more and more from Windows-esqe integration of everything... But last time I installed it and tried it out (a few days ago), I had problems getting XFCE apps to use the icons I wanted them to.

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#19 2005-06-28 07:08:23

rasat
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From: Finland, working in Romania
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

iphitus wrote:

rasat: I think a search for a 'perfect' wm is futile.

Everyone has their own perception of what a 'perfect'
wm is. If we were to include everyone's idea of a perfect wm into one, it would be huge, which would conflict with some people's liking of lighter WMs.

Why do we think a perfect WM includes everyone's liking and preferences? That's not the Arch Way!

A perfect WM is a base what doesn't include everyone's liking but allows everyone to setup and configure how they want. That's why Arch Linux is perfect for many users. wink

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#20 2005-06-28 07:59:11

iphitus
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

rasat wrote:
iphitus wrote:

rasat: I think a search for a 'perfect' wm is futile.

Everyone has their own perception of what a 'perfect'
wm is. If we were to include everyone's idea of a perfect wm into one, it would be huge, which would conflict with some people's liking of lighter WMs.

Why do we think a perfect WM includes everyone's liking and preferences? That's not the Arch Way!

A perfect WM is a base what doesn't include everyone's liking but allows everyone to setup and configure how they want. That's why Arch Linux is perfect for many users. wink

no, but to have one that will setup and configure how everyone wants, it's going to need to include all of the capabilities of doing what everyone wants. pixmaps, and that'll add size, which the minimalists dont like. Sure we could modularise it, but once you start doing things like that, it makes the situation much more complex, how you would distribute the addons, and avoiding conflicts between those addons.

newbies will want a wm that will just work right off, which means that the wm would need to come with GUI confs etc, others would want one that doesnt have those, which means we'd have to distrobute them seperately, which means that the newbies wouldnt have them if they just installed it.

otherwise, you're just asking for fvwm, from what i've heard and seen, it can do practically anything, and can be configured to do nearly anything. and if it doesnt do it, you can make a plugin for it.

iphitus

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#21 2005-06-28 16:53:38

rasat
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From: Finland, working in Romania
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

Iphitus, what you are saying is same what I am also thinking and concluding. When I analyze the development of Arch (made into a base, got devs building easy installed packages from source, and a user community writing wiki how-tos), I see a solution if done in same manner.

What WM can do it? Become a base same as CRUX was for Arch. I think you are right what you said here (see below).

iphitus wrote:

otherwise, you're just asking for fvwm, from what i've heard and seen, it can do practically anything, and can be configured to do nearly anything. and if it doesnt do it, you can make a plugin for it.

Fvwm is difficult to configure same as any generic WM base will be. But if we get someone to make config packages same what the Package Maintainers do wink .... it could become workable. If more minds join, maybe something new will be created.

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#22 2005-06-28 21:24:35

archdaemon
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Registered: 2005-01-27
Posts: 83

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

You mean create a package 'archfvwm-base' and then have people contribute 'archfvwm-niftytheme' and 'archfvwm-plaintheme' and even create 'archfvwm-somecoolmodule'? Then the experienced (or control-freak smile ) user could just grab base and do his own configs and the new user could grab base and any number of pre-pluggable themes and modules?

Sounds extremely interesting, but maybe hard to coordinate.

Or maybe I'm not following the idea. I'd like to hear more, though.

-- Well, and actually some of this is probably covered by fvwm-themes and the like. Just not a whole lot of it actually *in* Arch now. Have to have the 2.5.x version to start with, too, which is perfectly stable even if labeled 'devel'.

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#23 2005-06-28 22:44:53

Gullible Jones
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Registered: 2004-12-29
Posts: 4,863

Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

D'oh, forgot one of the most important features of the "perfect" WM: key bindings! You should be able to do just about anything you want with keystrokes.

(This is a department where E17 is sadly lacking...)

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#24 2005-06-29 05:07:34

nggalai
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From: Switzerland
Registered: 2004-08-01
Posts: 215
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

As a writer, my ideal / perfect WM would support complete keybindings for all its features. This also means the WM needs to organise my workspace in such a way that I don't need the mouse to easily find and switch open document windows. Tiling window managers with tabs/frames support seem to work best for me; if there's an easy way to have some applications in non-frame mode (say, the Gimp), the better.

Frame layouts should be saveable, and applications remember in what frames they're supposed to go when launched. I also don't like application menus; I'd prefer launching programs via a keyboard shortcut à la Quicksilver's Apple+Space combination.

That's pretty much it for me.

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#25 2005-06-29 05:27:05

rasat
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From: Finland, working in Romania
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Posts: 2,176
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Re: Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?

archdaemon wrote:

You mean create a package 'archfvwm-base' and then have people contribute 'archfvwm-niftytheme' and 'archfvwm-plaintheme' and even create 'archfvwm-somecoolmodule'? Then the experienced (or control-freak smile ) user could just grab base and do his own configs and the new user could grab base and any number of pre-pluggable themes and modules?

This is exactly what I meant. Now when you said it, giving details also the name of the WM smile .... no names in this thread), I am quite sure it will work. It just requires some coordination. Also to get few code devs beside theme devs, who can hack the WM if needed a particular function.

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