[Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

ShaneRoach · 2016-04-22 03:30:56

================================ Added for informative purposes================
The solution to the issue I have here is to understand that KDE, in the form of the plasma group, comes with SDDM, which is a display manager, already. But, there is nothing in the Wiki to indicate this apart from a mention of enabling the sddm.service IF you are upgrading. The section on starting a new install says you need a display manager, not that you need to enable the one you already have after you have installed plasma.

There is no functional way to check to see if you have a "functional" xorg without at least startx or a display manager, and if you have installed xorg AND the plasma group, you may as well enable sddm.service while you're there to see if your xorg is "functional", and by extension, all the rest of KDE.

systemctl enable sddm.service

That's all it turns out I actually needed.
================================/End=====================================

I feel like I must be missing something simple. I decided to go with KDE desktop because I had never tried it and wanted to see how it worked. KDE on the Wiki says you need Xorg. I Installed everything the wiki said on Xorg entry, but as it turns out you can't even start xorg without xinitrc (which I went back and installed), and even then it seems there are other x-related things I don't have because even after fully installing KDE I get an error trying to startx.

I suppose I should offer up the error, but my real question is actually this - am I doing this utterly wrong? Is there not a method where you can at least know all the dependencies for an end product and can efficiently install them? Or is this just how it works with pacman?

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by ShaneRoach (2016-05-01 16:58:31)

Scimmia · 2016-04-22 03:38:37

Generally, you get X running before installing a DE. Getting X running mostly means installing the server and a driver, and even the driver is optional. You need xinit if you want startx, but don't need it if you use a DM.

JohnBobSmith · 2016-04-22 03:45:47

Ugh, I'm a bit confused by what you asking, and it may have to do with the title. With minimal relevant info (no logs? exact errors?? a clearer and more detailed description of what went wrong???), I'm going to assume you've installed arch successfully, maybe for the first time, and wanted to install KDE. Though it seems you missed a few (a lot????) of steps. Let's back up...

The very first thing we need is a working Xorg install. Please paste the output of the following commands here:

#Run these one at a time and record, then post the output.
pacman -Qs xorg | grep -i xorg-server
pacman -Qs xorg | grep -i xinit
cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | curl -F 'clbin=<-' https://clbin.com

The last command will give you a clbin.com link. Copy and paste that here.

This is a good start. Once we have the basic information, we can continue further.

ShaneRoach · 2016-04-22 04:18:04

I definitely have some semblance of something with windows running. I will get back to you, JohnBobSmith, tomorrow. And thanks.

My question though was a simple one, and I think the answer must be "no". There is no streamlined set of instructions to install KDE, for example, or any other application that requires other full applications to build on top of. You just sort of have to piece together as you go what it is you need by trial and error and Google.

Is that not correct?

x33a · 2016-04-22 05:31:31

Moving to NC.

V1del · 2016-04-22 08:35:14

The general method of installation is following the Beginner's Guide and the links therein to a fully setup Arch install. Which would've lead you to https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ge … _interface in which you would be lead in to how to install and configure Xorg properly and after which you can install KDE properly and the KDE Installation paragraph provides all info from that step onwards. It isn't more streamlined than that because there are multiple choices to make after the Xorg part

ShaneRoach · 2016-04-22 14:16:06

V1del wrote:

The general method of installation is following the Beginner's Guide and the links therein to a fully setup Arch install. Which would've lead you to https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ge … _interface in which you would be lead in to how to install and configure Xorg properly and after which you can install KDE properly and the KDE Installation paragraph provides all info from that step onwards. It isn't more streamlined than that because there are multiple choices to make after the Xorg part

It would appear there are missing steps between Xorg and KDE entries on ArchWiki that the KDE entry does not cover, making it impossible to follow the process you describe.

Confusion arises when things like xinit and xserver turn out not to be included in xorg. The ArchWiki entry for KDE says to have a working copy of xorg running, but that phrase appears to have no functional meaning as xorg does not "run" without xinit at the very very least, and somehow xinit is not part of xorg. Xserver is not in the list of display managers, and yet xinit does not have anything to start with a generic Xorg install through pacman, so again throws errors. The error is that it cannot find xserver, so I installed xserver. Now it runs... something. Three different windows of the command line is what I get now when I issue startx.

The process you describe simply doesn't work, and what I was asking is did I miss a section of the wiki or something?

Apparently not. I'm going to proceed with the assumption there are no such instructions, or at least that no one knows where they might be precisely.

Scimmia · 2016-04-22 14:20:19

ShaneRoach wrote:

Confusion arises when things like xinit and xserver turn out not to be included in xorg. The ArchWiki entry for KDE says to have a working copy of xorg running, but that phrase appears to have no functional meaning as xorg does not "run" without xinit at the very very least, and somehow xinit is not part of xorg. Xserver is not in the list of display managers, and yet xinit does not have anything to start with a generic Xorg install through pacman, so again throws errors. The error is that it cannot find xserver, so I installed xserver. Now it runs... something. Three different windows of the command line is what I get now when I issue startx.

Nothing in this paragraph makes sense. Reread the Xorg article in the wiki.

Lone_Wolf · 2016-04-22 17:48:59

Shaneroach,

There are 2 ways to start X11 :

A. use any display manager
B.use startx / xinit

Method A does not require xinit to start X11 .

as for the "Three different windows of the command line is what I get now when I issue startx."

That is a fully functional X-session, using twm as window manager and providing you with 3 x-terminals .
(iirc there should also be a clock on screen)

GermanyChris · 2016-04-22 19:40:03

OP you need to read..not sections at a time but the whole thing from start to finish. If you need to write it all down that's what I do and keep some notes since you are going to blow this install up. You shouldn't be more than a half hour putting this all together with a big complete DE like KDE and SDDM. Read first type second.

ShaneRoach · 2016-04-23 00:20:21

Scimmia wrote:

ShaneRoach wrote:
Confusion arises when things like xinit and xserver turn out not to be included in xorg. The ArchWiki entry for KDE says to have a working copy of xorg running, but that phrase appears to have no functional meaning as xorg does not "run" without xinit at the very very least, and somehow xinit is not part of xorg. Xserver is not in the list of display managers, and yet xinit does not have anything to start with a generic Xorg install through pacman, so again throws errors. The error is that it cannot find xserver, so I installed xserver. Now it runs... something. Three different windows of the command line is what I get now when I issue startx.
Nothing in this paragraph makes sense. Reread the Xorg article in the wiki.

No amount of re-reading Xorg is going to fix the problem that unless you either add a display manager or xinit, you will not know whether or not you have a "working Xorg installation on your system." There is a missing step there. I filled it in myself. Thank you for your time.

I don't believe I will be needing any further help with this particular issue. I'll just mark it solved. The simple question, "are there complete instructions for installing specific software" is clearly "no". That's all I asked.

Daerandin · 2016-04-23 00:32:48

I realize this is already marked as Solved, but I just wanted to point out that the second section of the Xorg wiki article clearly states that you either need a Display Manager or xinit. So as others have pointed out multiple times, the Xorg wiki article already have all information you were asking for. So yes, there are very complete instructions available in the wiki.

But there is not a single definite way to install and configure KDE, or any other DE or WM for that matter. You will always need to make specific adjustments depending on your own preferences and use case.

ShaneRoach · 2016-04-23 00:47:35

Daerandin wrote:

I realize this is already marked as Solved, but I just wanted to point out that the second section of the Xorg wiki article clearly states that you either need a Display Manager or xinit. So as others have pointed out multiple times, the Xorg wiki article already have all information you were asking for. So yes, there are very complete instructions available in the wiki.

And the KDE entry gives no hint as to which of these two forks is most useful, which if any display managers might or might not be compatible, and I still have no idea why xserver was not part of my xorg-server package. That's the part that probably makes the least sense to me. Maybe there is a weird typo hidden in all of this that I missed. All I know is I got an error, added the xserver software, and it worked. That's the point at which I became concerned that I was missing a better way to go about this.

I appear to have had to add xserver SEPARATELY from xorg-server. Is that normal? Is that what went wrong?

Daerandin wrote:

But there is not a single definite way to install and configure KDE, or any other DE or WM for that matter. You will always need to make specific adjustments depending on your own preferences and use case.

Indeed.

jasonwryan · 2016-04-23 00:58:51

ShaneRoach wrote:

I appear to have had to add xserver SEPARATELY from xorg-server. Is that normal? Is that what went wrong?

There is no xserver package in Arch. As the wiki makes clear, you install Xorg with the package xorg-server. xinit is owned by xorg-xinit; again, this is made clear in the wiki.

What went wrong is what always goes wrong in these cases: people skim the wiki because they are in a hurry to get to a DE, and when it goes pear shaped, they blame the documentation, not the fact that they have neither read it thoroughly, nor taken the time to comprehend how all of the disparate but related elements fit together.

Daerandin · 2016-04-23 01:20:09

ShaneRoach wrote:

And the KDE entry gives no hint as to which of these two forks is most useful, which if any display managers might or might not be compatible, and I still have no idea why xserver was not part of my xorg-server package. That's the part that probably makes the least sense to me. Maybe there is a weird typo hidden in all of this that I missed. All I know is I got an error, added the xserver software, and it worked. That's the point at which I became concerned that I was missing a better way to go about this.

You just need to learn to read entire wiki articles and follow links to related wiki articles. In the second section of the Xorg wiki page, there is a link to the wiki page for display managers, which provides a list of display managers. Following links from there will explain how to set up the chosen display manager. The second section of the Xorg wiki page also links to the xinit wiki article, which will explain how to set up this method of starting xorg.

No method is preferred, because the choice is up to the user. Which method will work best is entirely dependent on your preference. But in order to make that choice, you will need to read articles further linked to by the Xorg wiki page so you can better understand the choices you need to make.

jasonwryan really did boil it down to the core of the issue. It seems like you have rushed through the wiki articles. Spend more time with the wiki, fully reading the articles as well as related topics.

ShaneRoach · 2016-04-23 01:40:38

jasonwryan wrote:

ShaneRoach wrote:
I appear to have had to add xserver SEPARATELY from xorg-server. Is that normal? Is that what went wrong?
There is no xserver package in Arch. As the wiki makes clear, you install Xorg with the package xorg-server. xinit is owned by xorg-xinit; again, this is made clear in the wiki.
What went wrong is what always goes wrong in these cases: people skim the wiki because they are in a hurry to get to a DE, and when it goes pear shaped, they blame the documentation, not the fact that they have neither read it thoroughly, nor taken the time to comprehend how all of the disparate but related elements fit together.

I did not blame the documentation. I asked if there was a more straightforward set of instructions for KDE and other pieces of software like it that stack on top of other software..

I installed xorg-server and got an error that was fixed by adding xterm (not xserver as I originally said, whatever difference that makes when I never asked for specific technical advice to being with), which I discovered after installing xorg-xinit (or honestly, I think just xinitrc, but I honestly don't recall anymore) and using startx. How is this horribly pear shaped?

I am more than willing to thrash this installation multiple times. I have Debian to work on if Arch takes a while to get up and running. Why should I care if skimming the instructions causes me to miss a beat here or there?

The issue is not me or my understanding or whether or not I even CARE whether the documentation is good or not, because I don't.

What is wrong with this thread is that the answer to the very simple question, "is there a straightforward entry in the wiki for installing a specific piece of software and all its necessary dependencies," is no. The very reason I did not give any error messages or even really ask for any specific technical advice was to avoid this very discussion. I'm not insulting the documentation. I was asking if there was documentation more tailored to installing specific software.

There is no entry in the wiki that simply walks you through what you need to know specifically for KDE or for that matter any other software that might be similarly complex to install. That is a fact. I have said I have this answer repeatedly. There is absolutely, positively no reason for me to have to come back to this thread and find yet another rude comment about my simple question.

Don't want to help me? My personality rub you the wrong way? Put me on your ignore list. I don't mind.

This is ridiculous.

I'm too old to be bothered tiptoeing around egos on a Linux distro help forum. Please leave me alone and put me on ignore if all you want to do is insult me.

jasonwryan · 2016-04-23 02:27:14

No-one is insulting you, nor is there any evidence of rudeness here. What we are trying to do is clarify your understanding of how Arch (both the distro and the community) work.

There are two reasons for this: one, everyone in this thread (as far as I can tell) actually wanted to help you, and two, we want to save ourselves from having to have this discussion yet again.

If you feel that you are tiptoing around egos, then I am sorry. But please be aware that this is a technical board and the people that are volunteering their time to support Arch here put a premium on accuracy and clarity.

Daerandin · 2016-04-23 02:28:26

I don't think anyone here is attempting to insult you. But based on your posts, I believe everyone get the impression that you have not read the documentation properly. In case it is not clear, there can not be a "simple set of instructions" because as you hopefully do realize by now, it depends on too many other aspects. I don't see how the current wiki instructions could be any better on this specific topic. Most other distributions have a tendency to eliminate choice, which of course makes it easier to provide very straightforward instructions.

About your confusion with xinit. It would be pointless to have xorg or any element of KDE depend on xinit, because people who prefer a display manager might have no need for xinit, and the other way around.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I am trying to help you. And from what I can see, so is everyone else.

ShaneRoach · 2016-04-23 03:29:19

Thanks for the kind tone, Daerandin. I honestly do not want to argue, nor do I like arguing. I just wanted to stop coming back to this thread and see insults to my ability to communicate.

I, at least, know what I meant. Predictably, I still agree with me.

FWIW, KDE is up and running now.
Sorry for the trouble.

TCBear · 2016-04-23 13:09:41

I too am a newbie, and I have one small suggestion that has helped me setting up many parts of my Arch system. If you look up the package in the repository, it lists both the dependencies of the package, and the other packages that require the package. Some of these may be optional. You can even get a list of files the package installs.

Arch Linux

#1 2016-04-22 03:30:56

[Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#2 2016-04-22 03:38:37

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#3 2016-04-22 03:45:47

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#4 2016-04-22 04:18:04

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#5 2016-04-22 05:31:31

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#6 2016-04-22 08:35:14

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#7 2016-04-22 14:16:06

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#8 2016-04-22 14:20:19

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#9 2016-04-22 17:48:59

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#10 2016-04-22 19:40:03

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#11 2016-04-23 00:20:21

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#12 2016-04-23 00:32:48

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#13 2016-04-23 00:47:35

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#14 2016-04-23 00:58:51

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#15 2016-04-23 01:20:09

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#16 2016-04-23 01:40:38

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#17 2016-04-23 02:27:14

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#18 2016-04-23 02:28:26

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#19 2016-04-23 03:29:19

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

#20 2016-04-23 13:09:41

Re: [Solved] KDE or Arch General Method of Installation

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