OSX font rendering

A.I. BOT · 2008-01-22 19:21:37

Hmm, Iv tried everything suggested here, I get pretty damn good rendering but I still get that red/blue border on some letters... in Ubuntu or even on my mac, the fonts are perfectly crisp and clear, what is Ubuntu doing that we're not? anyone know?

Thanks.

finferflu · 2008-01-23 00:51:12

paramthegreat wrote:

I think the default OSX terminal font is Monaco.
finferflu wrote:
I don't know if you are interested, but I have found some OS X fonts, they look very nice with these settings. You can get them here.
By the way, if you know what is the default font in the OSX terminal, please tell me

Thanks! I have installed it, but it's quite ugly for me
What I have always seen in the screenshots is a quite bold font with "dotted" zeros, I wonder what font that is. The closest one I could find is Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, but it's a bit too narrow for me. Monaco reminds me of Comic Sans too much (and it's not a compliment)... and now it's the default monospace font for Conkeror, it seems like a curse

Last edited by finferflu (2008-01-23 00:51:56)

brebs · 2008-01-23 02:01:18

A.I. BOT wrote:

what is Ubuntu doing that we're not?

See /etc/fonts/, ~/.fonts.conf and cairo-ubuntu.

There's a huge amount of subtlety possible in /etc/fonts/

So, the answer is that you can set up fonts exactly how you like them, if you're prepared to put in some *effort*.

bionnaki · 2008-01-23 02:12:29

A.I. BOT wrote:

Hmm, Iv tried everything suggested here, I get pretty damn good rendering but I still get that red/blue border on some letters... in Ubuntu or even on my mac, the fonts are perfectly crisp and clear, what is Ubuntu doing that we're not? anyone know?
Thanks.

coming from ubuntu, I missed the excellent fonts on that distro. luckily, the patches are available in AUR. everyone's configuration is going to be different, but I recommend the -ubuntu packages, modifying .fonts.conf and playing around with your xorg.conf for optimal settings. follow http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fon … r_LCD_in_X but for the -ubuntu packes, for starters.

slackhack · 2008-01-26 18:52:35

I've tried lcd, ubuntu, and cleartype. my text fonts always look basically the same no matter what. in fact, I'm still using freetype2-2.2.1-4.pkg.tar.gz libxfont-1.2.7-1.pkg.tar.gz from like 6 months-year ago because the new ones since then make my fonts look like total crap.

I just got a new LCD, and now the once okay fonts are too "thin." So I'm not sure what's going on or what I"m doing wrong, but I'm definitely not getting good cleartype-like, full fonts. they're very spindly, except in the application menus, etc. where they get too "wonky" with the newer freetypes.

here's what I have originally, except a little more spindly on the new LCD:

original - good

and here's what the newer freetype2s do (even worse with the regular, non-lcd freetype2):

freetype-lcd - bad

as you can see, it makes them look too big and "cartoony."

here's a before and after with regular text in a browser -- not too much different (although really screwed up with the regular freetype2):

before

after

you can see again in the XFCE4 menu and firefox menu bar how the later freetype2 (in this case, freetype2-lcd) makes the fonts look too big/tall and "wonky" compared to the sleeker "neutral" original ones.

>>edit: easier to compare:
menus
dialog

the strange thing is that fonts look *perfect* on my laptop with all the latest freetype2, fontconfig, etc. They look just like in the first examples, except a slight bit meatier (they thinned out on the new LCD). I thought it was my video card, but I switched it from a radeon (which died) to an old matrox, and it's exactly the same with both. I've tried every configuration option known to humans, DPI, autohinter, subpixel rendering, going to fractionated point fonts (9.5, 9.8, etc.) to try to reduce them from the wonkiness, etc. -- nothing works.

Is this just something I'm going to have to live with, with freetype2 and libxfont in IgnorePkg forever? :?:

Last edited by slackhack (2008-01-26 19:06:19)

schivmeister · 2008-01-26 19:19:09

None of those are "good". Can be much, much, much better.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9830 … eenzp7.png

Don't know how one couldn't achieve similar results as all I did was grab the *lcd packages, link the autohinter and steal the gentoo-wiki lcd font conf. I also set the DPI and all but that was after I had good-looking fonts, makes no visual difference at all, IMO. GPU has nothing to do with it, except for the drawing part, but that's mostly insignificant here. Some lcds are just bad, though.

Last edited by schivmeister (2008-01-26 19:21:52)

slackhack · 2008-01-26 19:30:24

schivmeister wrote:

None of those are "good". Can be much, much, much better.
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9830 … eenzp7.png
Don't know how one couldn't achieve similar results as all I did was grab the *lcd packages, link the autohinter and steal the gentoo-wiki lcd font conf. I also set the DPI and all but that was after I had good-looking fonts, makes no visual difference at all, IMO. GPU has nothing to do with it, except for the drawing part, but that's mostly insignificant here. Some lcds are just bad, though.

yes, those are really good. those are more like what I had on slackware before switching to arch. then I got them pretty good in arch, and then Xorg changed their freetype2 and screwed everything up. I can't stand the way they display with the new freetype2 at all, and would rather take them "thin" and a little weak looking over the way they are with the newer freetypes.

the LCDs are samsung S-PVA panels, so I don't think there is much of problem with them. In fact, I gave my old 17" panel to my sister, and it looks quite amazing on fedora.

I'll try the lcd packages again in case I missed something, but I don't think I did. I haven't been able to figure this out for months, it's like something's "blocking" the good configuration from working. Is the gentoo fonts.conf the one posted in this thread?

p.s. what desktop are you using? I just remembered I can get them looking similar to yours in gnome, just not XFCE4, which is what I prefer to run. so maybe there's something to do with the DE that's affecting them.

Last edited by slackhack (2008-01-26 19:33:40)

schivmeister · 2008-01-26 19:46:03

Right. Probably bad LCDs are the ones at least a decade old, so much so that you'd grow to become a CRT fanboy.

KDE. Nope, doesn't matter. In fact, KControl screws up badly if I click on the fonts module so I don't dare touch it.

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd">
<fontconfig>
    <!-- Info at http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Xorg_and_Fonts -->

    <!-- Replace Courier with a better-looking font -->
    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test name="family" qual="any">
            <string>Courier</string>
        </test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign">
            <!-- Other choices - Courier New, Luxi Mono -->
            <string>Bitstream Vera Sans Mono</string>
        </edit>
    </match>

    <match target="font">
        <edit name="rgba" mode="assign">
            <const>rgb</const>
        </edit>
        <edit name="autohint" mode="assign">
            <bool>true</bool>
        </edit>
        <edit name="antialias" mode="assign">
            <bool>true</bool>
        </edit>
        <edit name="hinting" mode="assign">
            <bool>true</bool>
        </edit>
        <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign">
            <const>hintmedium</const>
        </edit>
    </match>

    <!-- Disable autohint for bold fonts, otherwise they look *too* bold -->
    <match target="font">
           <test name="weight" compare="more">
            <const>medium</const>
        </test>
           <edit name="autohint" mode="assign">
            <bool>false</bool>
        </edit>
    </match>

    <!-- Reject bitmap fonts in favour of Truetype, Postscript, etc. -->
    <selectfont>
        <rejectfont>
            <pattern>
                <patelt name="scalable">
                    <bool>false</bool>
                </patelt>
            </pattern>
        </rejectfont>
    </selectfont>

</fontconfig>

>> pacman -Q | grep lcd
cairo-lcd 1.4.12-6
freetype2-lcd 2.3.5-3
libxft-lcd 2.1.12-5

>> ls -l /etc/fonts/conf.d
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 38 2007-12-26 23:42 10-autohint.conf -> /etc/fonts/conf.avail/10-autohint.conf

slackhack · 2008-01-26 21:05:38

I went through the gentoo wiki, and ended up with fonts pretty much identical to what they think are good:

http://gentoo-wiki.com/images/8/8f/Xorg-fonts-lcd.png

except their non-bolded fonts there are worse, and I don't like the stretched out look of the bolded ones.

that was with the old freetype2, so I'll try it with the lcd packages again, and if that doesn't do it, I don't really know what else to try. I just can't figure out what is preventing the good looking fonts like you have.

>>>>> edit: got it looking much better with the -ubuntu packages. now I just have to get used to it and do some tweaking. I'm most interested in this:

brebs wrote:

cairo-ubuntu gives the choice of: lcdfilternone, lcdfilterdefault, lcdfilterlight, lcdfilterlegacy.

what are those, config options? where/how would I use them, in the ~/.fonts.conf? thanks

Last edited by slackhack (2008-01-27 01:00:20)

brebs · 2008-01-27 01:11:21

Yes, see example:

$ grep lcd_filter /etc/fonts/conf.avail/*
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf:    <edit name="lcd_filter" mode="assign">

$ pacman -Qo /etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf is owned by fontconfig-ubuntu 2.5.0-2

slackhack · 2008-01-27 01:48:55

brebs wrote:

Yes, see example:

$ grep lcd_filter /etc/fonts/conf.avail/*
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf:    <edit name="lcd_filter" mode="assign">

$ pacman -Qo /etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf is owned by fontconfig-ubuntu 2.5.0-2

nice -thanks.

bionnaki · 2008-01-27 03:59:30

brebs wrote:

Yes, see example:

$ grep lcd_filter /etc/fonts/conf.avail/*
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf:    <edit name="lcd_filter" mode="assign">

$ pacman -Qo /etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf is owned by fontconfig-ubuntu 2.5.0-2

Sorry for having this asked again, but I dont quite understand what lcdfilternone, lcdfilterdefault, lcdfilterlight, and lcdfilterlegacy are and what I can do with them.

Rasi · 2008-01-30 22:09:11

i have to say.. the method with freetype2-lcd and cairo-lcd just rocks.. looks really nice

Evanlec · 2008-03-04 22:43:52

i've tried the *-lcd and *-ubuntu packages,
but nothing seems to want to get rid of the blue/red tinge around my fonts. especially noticeable with light text on dark background (in terminals).

This only happens when i lower my font size below 10-12 ...
if i disable antialiasing i don't see the color tinge but the fonts look terrible...

Is there a definitive fix for the red/blue color tinge??

Last edited by Evanlec (2008-03-04 22:47:04)

freakcode · 2008-03-04 23:20:04

finferflu wrote:

paramthegreat wrote:
I think the default OSX terminal font is Monaco.
finferflu wrote:
I don't know if you are interested, but I have found some OS X fonts, they look very nice with these settings. You can get them here.
By the way, if you know what is the default font in the OSX terminal, please tell me
Thanks! I have installed it, but it's quite ugly for me
What I have always seen in the screenshots is a quite bold font with "dotted" zeros, I wonder what font that is. The closest one I could find is Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, but it's a bit too narrow for me. Monaco reminds me of Comic Sans too much (and it's not a compliment)... and now it's the default monospace font for Conkeror, it seems like a curse

Lucida Console.

brebs · 2008-03-04 23:50:48

Evanlec wrote:

This only happens when i lower my font size below 10-12 ...
Is there a definitive fix for the red/blue color tinge??

Use greyscale, e.g.:

    <match target="font">
        <test name="size" compare="less_eq"><double>10</double></test>
        <edit name="rgba"><const>none</const></edit>
    </match>

Last edited by brebs (2008-03-04 23:59:33)

Evanlec · 2008-03-05 03:34:57

brebs wrote:

Evanlec wrote:
This only happens when i lower my font size below 10-12 ...
Is there a definitive fix for the red/blue color tinge??
Use greyscale, e.g.:
    <match target="font">
        <test name="size" compare="less_eq"><double>10</double></test>
        <edit name="rgba"><const>none</const></edit>
    </match>

Well that seems to fix the color tinge effect...but now my fonts appear blurry...
I have AA enabled, autohint on, and hinting enabled.
Is there something I can do here and still use the grayscale subpixel rendering?

your help is much appreciated btw, this fonts crap has been driving me insane!

schivmeister · 2008-03-05 03:41:47

disable either hinting or autohint

brebs · 2008-03-05 03:49:50

You need to experiment.

<!-- hintnone, hintslight, hintmedium, hintfull -->
<edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"><const>hintmedium</const></edit>

Use cairo-ubuntu and there's even more choice:

<!-- lcdfilternone, lcdfilterdefault, lcdfilterlight, lcdfilterlegacy -->
<edit name="lcd_filter" mode="assign"><const>lcdfilterlegacy</const></edit>

paramthegreat · 2008-03-07 20:56:12

xxsashixx wrote:

Thanks for this but.. in pastebin.com the pastes look like crap yet in pastebin.ca it looks fine, probably they are different.. anyways heres screenshots
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6677 … hl1.th.png
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1572 … jl5.th.png
As you can see pastebin.ca is fine but how do i fix pastebin.com?

The problem is that pastebin.com is looking for Courier font on your machine. Since it cannot find a true-type version the font is rendered like that. The solution to that would be add substitues for common webfonts in your ~/.fonts.conf file. Below is mine:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd">
<fontconfig>
    <!--
        Alias well known font names to available TrueType fonts.
        These substitute TrueType faces for similar Type1
        faces to improve screen appearance.
    -->
    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>Helvetica</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>sans-serif</string></edit>
    </match>

    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>Lucida</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>sans-serif</string></edit>
    </match>


    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>Times</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>sans-serif</string></edit>
    </match>

    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>Courier</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>monospace</string></edit>
    </match>

    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>Courier New</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>monospace</string></edit>
    </match>

    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>helvetica</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>sans-serif</string></edit>
    </match>

    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>fixed</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>monospace</string></edit>
    </match>

    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>lucida</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>sans-serif</string></edit>
    </match>


    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>times</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>sans-serif</string></edit>
    </match>

    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>courier</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>monospace</string></edit>
    </match>

    <match target="pattern" name="family">
        <test qual="any" name="family"><string>courier new</string></test>
        <edit name="family" mode="assign"><string>monospace</string></edit>
    </match>

    <!--
        Provide required aliases for standard names
        Do these after the users configuration file so that
        any aliases there are used preferentially
    -->
    <alias>
        <family>serif</family>
        <prefer><family>Dejavu Sans</family></prefer>
    </alias>

    <alias>
        <family>sans-serif</family>
        <prefer><family>Dejavu Sans</family></prefer>
    </alias>

    <alias>
        <family>monospace</family>
        <prefer><family>Dejavu Sans Mono</family></prefer>
      </alias>

    <!--
        Font rendering and sub-pixel hinting stuff
    -->
      <match target="font" >
        <edit mode="assign" name="rgba" ><const>rgb</const></edit>
        <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" ><bool>true</bool></edit>
        <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" ><bool>true</bool></edit>
        <edit mode="assign" name="hintstyle" ><const>hintfull</const></edit>
      </match>

    <match target="pattern">
        <edit name="dpi" mode="assign"><double>86</double></edit>
    </match>

      <match target="pattern" >
          <test compare="more" name="weight" ><const>medium</const></test>
        <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" ><bool>true</bool></edit>
      </match>
</fontconfig>

That should get you some pretty fonts.

ST.x · 2008-03-07 23:40:17

@brebs:
Do we need to do the stuff from archwiki which is for the *-lcd packages, even for *-ubuntu packages-

Reset your font configuration:

As root:
rm /etc/fonts/conf.d/*
pacman -S fontconfig

Set the FreeType autohinter. As root :

ln -s /etc/fonts/conf.avail/10-autohint.conf /etc/fonts/conf.d/10-autohint.conf

Since I can see the differences already without doing the above commands except I installed fontconfig-ubuntu along with the other *-ubuntu packages using yaourt while having to remove the original conflicting packages. So I didnt do rm /etc/fonts/conf.d/* before installing fontconfig-ubuntu or do ln -s /etc/fonts/conf.avail/10-autohint.conf /etc/fonts/conf.d/10-autohint.conf. Is that okay?

And I think the conflicts problem mentioned before is okay now?

thx

Last edited by ST.x (2008-03-07 23:41:56)

brebs · 2008-03-08 00:07:25

There's no need to go deleting files in /etc/fonts/blah, and yes the "conflicts problem" was fixed with e.g. provides=("cairo=$pkgver")

ST.x · 2008-03-08 00:11:26

okay, what about the ln -s /etc/fonts/conf.avail/10-autohint.conf /etc/fonts/conf.d/10-autohint.conf
cheers for the fast reply

brebs · 2008-03-08 00:30:37

They are under your control - apply them as you see fit. Everyone's got a different opinion on ugly fonts, unfortunately.

Personally, I prefer to stick the important rules in ~/.fonts.conf where they are safe.

Evanlec · 2008-03-11 05:42:17

brebs wrote:

You need to experiment.

<!-- hintnone, hintslight, hintmedium, hintfull -->
<edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"><const>hintmedium</const></edit>

Use cairo-ubuntu and there's even more choice:

<!-- lcdfilternone, lcdfilterdefault, lcdfilterlight, lcdfilterlegacy -->
<edit name="lcd_filter" mode="assign"><const>lcdfilterlegacy</const></edit>

I'm using cairo-ubuntu (along with all the other -ubuntu packages)
The lcd_filter property doesnt seem to be working, as when I run certain apps I get this output:

Fontconfig warning: "~/.fonts.conf", line 11: invalid constant used : lcdfilterlight

Arch Linux

#51 2008-01-22 19:21:37

Re: OSX font rendering

#52 2008-01-23 00:51:12

Re: OSX font rendering

#53 2008-01-23 02:01:18

Re: OSX font rendering

#54 2008-01-23 02:12:29

Re: OSX font rendering

#55 2008-01-26 18:52:35

Re: OSX font rendering

#56 2008-01-26 19:19:09

Re: OSX font rendering

#57 2008-01-26 19:30:24

Re: OSX font rendering

#58 2008-01-26 19:46:03

Re: OSX font rendering

#59 2008-01-26 21:05:38

Re: OSX font rendering

#60 2008-01-27 01:11:21

Re: OSX font rendering

#61 2008-01-27 01:48:55

Re: OSX font rendering

#62 2008-01-27 03:59:30

Re: OSX font rendering

#63 2008-01-30 22:09:11

Re: OSX font rendering

#64 2008-03-04 22:43:52

Re: OSX font rendering

#65 2008-03-04 23:20:04

Re: OSX font rendering

#66 2008-03-04 23:50:48

Re: OSX font rendering

#67 2008-03-05 03:34:57

Re: OSX font rendering

#68 2008-03-05 03:41:47

Re: OSX font rendering

#69 2008-03-05 03:49:50

Re: OSX font rendering

#70 2008-03-07 20:56:12

Re: OSX font rendering

#71 2008-03-07 23:40:17

Re: OSX font rendering

#72 2008-03-08 00:07:25

Re: OSX font rendering

#73 2008-03-08 00:11:26

Re: OSX font rendering

#74 2008-03-08 00:30:37

Re: OSX font rendering

#75 2008-03-11 05:42:17

Re: OSX font rendering

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