[SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

Allamgir · 2009-06-15 22:36:46

I want to go back to xmonad. I tinkered with it a tiny bit once (even without the slightest knowledge of haskell; I still lack that) and was instantly hooked. Currently I'm using OpenBox, and it's alright, but I don't really like it as much as I liked xmonad for some reason. Maybe it's because of how smart xmonad was with tiling and the freshness of learning how to configure in haskell.

The only thing stopping me from doing this is the menu. Openbox has an amazing menu. It's fully editable, has pipe-menus, custom commands, fits really well with my theme, is easy to use, and obmenu is awesome. Is there anything I can use in xmonad that could compete? When I was using xmonad before, I was using dmenu. This was great, except it had ALL programs listed, the capitalization was inconsistent, and I couldn't edit it (create aliases, custom commands, etc). Is there any way I could do those things in dmenu, or is there a menu available for xmonad that can?

Another thing I love about the Openbox menu is that it's an actual menu. By that I mean it has directories and has all the apps I want listed, so I don't have to remember which apps I have available and what the commands for them are. It's always right there.

Is there any solution to this? Any really awesome way to launch apps from xmonad?

Last edited by Allamgir (2009-06-20 13:53:58)

tlvb · 2009-06-15 22:54:30

Not really a xmonad or openbox user, but isn't obmenu a separate program? (Which then should be able to run under xmonad too)

Mr.Elendig · 2009-06-15 23:10:44

You can get dmenu to display anything you want. You don't have to use the default wrapper that just grabs everything that is in PATH. There have been a few threads about pimping/customizing dmenu here on the forum.

rson451 · 2009-06-15 23:13:24

If you must have a right click menu, someone here scripted dzen to act as a right click menu. Search the bbs for that if you're interested.

anrxc · 2009-06-15 23:57:06

Allamgir wrote:

I really want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

Beside tiling windows, these window managers are all keyboard oriented. You have your keyboard and your terminal - the sky is the limit.
For accessing a menu you have to move your hand, grab the mouse, locate and point to the menu launcher, navigate menus, *wait* until they open... ... at this point I already finished my task, twice.
The right click menu is also of little use, on a tiling wm you see the background as often as you see an eclipse. If you care about productivity and functionality and Xmonad is a part of that process you should once more rethink the way you work. If nothing else I hope now you at least understand why nobody cared to create "Openbox menu" on Xmonad.

Allamgir · 2009-06-16 00:42:07

Mr.Elendig wrote:

You can get dmenu to display anything you want. You don't have to use the default wrapper that just grabs everything that is in PATH. There have been a few threads about pimping/customizing dmenu here on the forum.

Really? I once posted a question about dmenu (I don't remember where) and someone told me it was uneditable unless I really wanted to get my hands messy with the source or something. This is excellent news. I"ll search it, but could you also provide some links?.

anrxc wrote:

Beside tiling windows, these window managers are all keyboard oriented. You have your keyboard and your terminal - the sky is the limit.
For accessing a menu you have to move your hand, grab the mouse, locate and point to the menu launcher, navigate menus, *wait* until they open... ... at this point I already finished my task, twice.
The right click menu is also of little use, on a tiling wm you see the background as often as you see an eclipse. If you care about productivity and functionality and Xmonad is a part of that process you should once more rethink the way you work. If nothing else I hope now you at least understand why nobody cared to create "Openbox menu" on Xmonad.

You make a great point. I probably should hone my terminal and keyboard shortcut skills. I believe I once read on the xmonad website that any movement from the keyboard to the mouse is wasted time and energy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "and Xmonad is a part... you should rethink the way you work", though. Are you arguing for or against xmonad's workflow style?

Last edited by Allamgir (2009-06-16 00:43:10)

HashBox · 2009-06-16 02:57:29

You could try this solution:
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=557285

Although that code is a little outdated, it does the trick. You can use that along with for example 9menu.
Not the most ideal method mind you, as 9menu is rather limited, but it could be used with any other standalone menu system.

Mr.Elendig · 2009-06-16 14:31:56

Allamgir wrote:

Mr.Elendig wrote:
You can get dmenu to display anything you want. You don't have to use the default wrapper that just grabs everything that is in PATH. There have been a few threads about pimping/customizing dmenu here on the forum.
Really? I once posted a question about dmenu (I don't remember where) and someone told me it was uneditable unless I really wanted to get my hands messy with the source or something. This is excellent news. I"ll search it, but could you also provide some links?.

Dmenu is quite dumb, in a good way. It takes strings on stdin, and it returns the one you select on stdout. You can use that to script it to do anything, eg by using a case/esac or a dictionary based dispatcher.

Last edited by Mr.Elendig (2009-06-16 14:32:21)

Trent · 2009-06-16 14:32:28

Allamgir wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by "and Xmonad is a part... you should rethink the way you work", though. Are you arguing for or against xmonad's workflow style?

Not to put words in anrxc's mouth, but I don't think it was either one necessarily. The point was that using a mouse-driven menu to select programs offsets any benefit there might be in using xmonad; it's not necessarily bad to use a mouse-driven menu, but it doesn't mesh with the stated goals of minimalistic window management. In sum... why would you do both?

I have to say that I agree. When I switched to wmii I was concerned about losing the menu functionality too, but I have to admit that my productivity hasn't taken any sharp downturns.

If you just want a quickie menu to select from your favorite programs, you could whip that up yourself by piping the contents of a file to dmenu. (I suggest using dmenu-vertical rather than plain dmenu, though.) Then you could activate it with a key combination.

SomeGuyDude · 2009-06-16 15:56:20

anrxc wrote:

Allamgir wrote:
I really want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!
For accessing a menu you have to move your hand, grab the mouse, locate and point to the menu launcher, navigate menus, *wait* until they open... ... at this point I already finished my task, twice.

I think you just suck at using a mouse. Or you're on some comically tight schedule that I can't even fathom. I don't think I've run into a time where I found myself saying "if only I could have opened that application faster, he might have lived!!"

A menu vs a run dialog is like dialing a phone versus having a contacts list. No one NEEDS that list, you can probably dial a number a lot faster than it takes to find the name in your phone.

Or you could be smart with your menu and organize it in such a way that it doesn't take that long at all.

rson451 · 2009-06-16 16:55:20

SomeGuyDude wrote:

A menu vs a run dialog is like dialing a phone versus having a contacts list. No one NEEDS that list, you can probably dial a number a lot faster than it takes to find the name in your phone.

I think this analogy would be more accurate: A menu vs a run dialog is like having a contacts list vs speed dial.

But that's just my opinion.

Trent · 2009-06-16 18:05:45

SomeGuyDude wrote:

anrxc wrote:
Allamgir wrote:
I really want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!
For accessing a menu you have to move your hand, grab the mouse, locate and point to the menu launcher, navigate menus, *wait* until they open... ... at this point I already finished my task, twice.
I think you just suck at using a mouse. Or you're on some comically tight schedule that I can't even fathom. I don't think I've run into a time where I found myself saying "if only I could have opened that application faster, he might have lived!!"
A menu vs a run dialog is like dialing a phone versus having a contacts list. No one NEEDS that list, you can probably dial a number a lot faster than it takes to find the name in your phone.

I disagree. A fast typist (I hit 50 wpm on occasion) can type 'firefox' in the time it takes you to move your right hand to the mouse and back. To say nothing of the time it takes to re-discover your fingers after you move them back to the keyboard... (other people do that too, right? Not just me?) Map CapsLock and you can make it even faster. Dmenu even eliminates the need to type the whole thing -- you just need enough to put it first on the list (two letters, for Firefox).

It may seem like a very minor difference, but every second that I'm focusing on something other than the work at hand is another second I am likely to forget what I'm doing.

Ashren · 2009-06-16 20:04:14

You may also check out this thread: http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=47833

And now that dzen2 supports xft it might suit your needs.

rson451 · 2009-06-16 20:20:43

Ashren, I knew someone did that but I cba to search for the OP

Allamgir · 2009-06-16 21:21:07

These are all great solutions. Thanks! The only thing is, I have no idea where to start for scripting dmenu. Somehow there was a shortcut in xmonad to start dmenu with mod+p, but that was probably part of a guide I was reading. Perhaps I should start by installing xmonad? But really, is there a wiki or any other documentation on customizing dmenu? I couldn't find any arch threads with the search utility and google just turned up a bunch of unrelated documents.

I think I've settled that the productivity gain and awesomeness of tiling window managers done right has moved me to switch to xmonad full time. I don't have time to install and set it up right now, so I'll start on that in a day or two.

respite · 2009-06-16 22:38:48

When i switched to wmii i was bothered for a few days over the lack of availability of a traditional style menu. Now i find its built in menu system to be much easier to use. Ive also realized if i cant remember the name of the program, chances are i dont need it anyway. I ended up removing a ton of packages from my system.

Tiling window manages require an adjustment period, and most work in quite different ways. Its all worth it in the end.

Lexion · 2009-06-17 00:50:42

I had the same problem, but I now can't use a standard menu, dmenu is all I will use. Just try it, and if you need one, +1 for 9menu.

SomeGuyDude · 2009-06-17 03:21:52

Trent wrote:

I disagree. A fast typist (I hit 50 wpm on occasion) can type 'firefox' in the time it takes you to move your right hand to the mouse and back. To say nothing of the time it takes to re-discover your fingers after you move them back to the keyboard... (other people do that too, right? Not just me?) Map CapsLock and you can make it even faster. Dmenu even eliminates the need to type the whole thing -- you just need enough to put it first on the list (two letters, for Firefox).
It may seem like a very minor difference, but every second that I'm focusing on something other than the work at hand is another second I am likely to forget what I'm doing.

I've been clocked at about 113wpm my man. Slightly less if you calibrate the occasional typo (although I'm much faster working off my own brain than trying to do a direct copy, so my usual score on the online tests is around 90-95). Typing speed isn't exactly an issue for me. Plus since I'm on a laptop my "mouse" is a touchpad that's sitting under my right thumb at all time.

Here's a few good examples of why I like my menu:

firefox-3.5
./.openoffice.sh -writer
avidemux2_gtk
xterm -e alsamixer
lxappearance
emerald-theme-manager

Now if I'm just opening GIMP or the Compiz settings manager ("ccsm") or something of that sort then sure it's a little quicker. But a lot (by which I mean maybe half) of my menu is full of weird commands that I just plain can't type out. I'm not a fan of dmenu anyway. I use gmrun because it's light and snappy and isn't cluttered with a million things I don't need.

There really is a point where I think people get obsessed with shaving split seconds off for no good reason. Honestly now, do you need to get at your email SO FAST that you have to do that? If you're that pressed for time, just map everything you can to a keyboard shortcut. I've got all my media controls working that way.

Trent · 2009-06-17 16:19:35

SomeGuyDude wrote:

I've been clocked at about 113wpm my man. Slightly less if you calibrate the occasional typo (although I'm much faster working off my own brain than trying to do a direct copy, so my usual score on the online tests is around 90-95).

I bow and scrape before your superior typing skills It's been a long time since I have timed myself, and I've possibly gotten better over time... but for the most part I don't bother practicing because my fingers can keep up with my brain, which is the important thing.

Typing speed isn't exactly an issue for me. Plus since I'm on a laptop my "mouse" is a touchpad that's sitting under my right thumb at all time.

Gah! You use a touchpad? Now there's a time-waster for you!

There really is a point where I think people get obsessed with shaving split seconds off for no good reason. Honestly now, do you need to get at your email SO FAST that you have to do that? If you're that pressed for time, just map everything you can to a keyboard shortcut. I've got all my media controls working that way.

It's not so much a matter of speed for speed's sake... When I am writing a (book|essay|report|e-mail), I think it's simply easier to hit <Mod-P>fir<Enter> (assuming one uses Firefox) than to find my mouse, navigate it to somewhere I can bring up a menu (desktop background, Applications menu, whatever), click, point, point, click, and move back to the keyboard in preparation for hitting <Ctrl-L> or <Ctrl-K>. It's not as if I'm going to great pains to save time. When the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, why bother going in circles?

madalu · 2009-06-17 16:57:14

SomeGuyDude wrote:

firefox-3.5
./.openoffice.sh -writer
avidemux2_gtk
xterm -e alsamixer
lxappearance
emerald-theme-manager
Now if I'm just opening GIMP or the Compiz settings manager ("ccsm") or something of that sort then sure it's a little quicker. But a lot (by which I mean maybe half) of my menu is full of weird commands that I just plain can't type out. I'm not a fan of dmenu anyway. I use gmrun because it's light and snappy and isn't cluttered with a million things I don't need.

Of course, you can also make simple scripts for the more verbose commands that you can execute via dmenu.

At the same time, I second your defense of the openbox menu. Indeed, it's very easy to bind the openbox menu to a key. The only thing I haven't yet looked into is whether it's possible to define keybindings for moving within the menu. Right now, I have to switch to the arrow keys to do this. I would prefer h, j, k, l.

There really is a point where I think people get obsessed with shaving split seconds off for no good reason. Honestly now, do you need to get at your email SO FAST that you have to do that? If you're that pressed for time, just map everything you can to a keyboard shortcut. I've got all my media controls working that way.

I agree. The main advantages of tiling window managers are maximized screen real estate and tags (and, in theory, more efficient management of open windows, though I'm dubious on that point).

For speed at opening applications, however, there's no difference between a good floating manager and a tiling window manager. In openbox, I just bind all my important applications and commands to keys in openbox. You can't beat Super-t for urxvt, Super-e for emacsclient, etc. And a key to trigger the openbox menu lets me see the output of obpipe scripts from the keyboard.

I prefer openbox because it gets out of the way and let's me focus on what is going on within my application window. And I find my most important speed gains are accomplished inside of applications (i.e., with keybindings in emacs, conkeror, vim, etc.). I've tried tiling window managers and they tend to cut down on my productivity because they make me too trigger happy (i.e., I end up switching and moving windows more than I need to). That is, I focus too much on what's going on outside the windows and not enough on what's going on inside of them.

But I've left out the most important reason I like the openbox menu: namely, because it allows my family members to use my computer without feeling utterly lost (once I teach them the right click trick, that is). And yet with openbox I can still control windows entirely from the keyboard.

Last edited by madalu (2009-06-17 16:58:40)

eol · 2009-06-17 19:02:49

Mr.Elendig wrote:

You can get dmenu to display anything you want.

+1
a tiny example named lsd (contraction of ls and dmenu ) to browse your tree and launch predefined actions from the directory you stopped in (with Escape):

#!/bin/sh
prompt=ListDir
action=cd
index=`ls -d */ -d .*/ -U | dmenu -p "$prompt: $PWD"`
[ -z $index ]
if [ $? = 1 ]; then
  $action $index && lsd ; else
  actions
fi

It can be used in this mini-script if you want to start from root instead of from the current directory :

#!/bin/sh
cd / && lsd ;
actions

actions is something like :

#!/bin/sh
prompt=Launch
index=`ls ~/scripts/actions | dmenu -p "$PWD $prompt:"`
[ -z $index ]
if [ $? = 1 ]; then
  exec $index&
fi

even with so little scripts, dmenu offers a huge amount of possibility.

moljac024 · 2009-06-18 01:53:06

madalu wrote:

You can't beat Super-t for urxvt, Super-e for emacsclient, etc.

Yes you can - Super-Return for terminal
And Super-v for vim

The second one isn't really needed since it's much easier and faster to type vim than it is to type emacs

Last edited by moljac024 (2009-06-18 01:55:37)

webframp · 2009-06-18 06:12:41

using dzen with clickable areas you could build a very custom menu script, I think this is the thread that was mentioned: http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=390680

Redrazor39 · 2009-06-18 20:39:58

Last edited by Redrazor39 (2009-06-18 20:42:23)

Allamgir · 2009-06-18 20:43:18

anrxc wrote:

Beside tiling windows, these window managers are all keyboard oriented. You have your keyboard and your terminal - the sky is the limit.

I think it would be great if I could just always have a terminal open and just launch apps & run commands from that. The only thing is, how do I launch an app from the terminal and still be able to launch more from that same terminal?

For example, if you open up a terminal and typed "firefox", then firefox would open but the terminal would just have a blank line and not be able to run any commands until firefox was closed. How do I change this so I can run more commands while firefox is open?

Arch Linux

#1 2009-06-15 22:36:46

[SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#2 2009-06-15 22:54:30

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#3 2009-06-15 23:10:44

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#4 2009-06-15 23:13:24

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#5 2009-06-15 23:57:06

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#6 2009-06-16 00:42:07

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#7 2009-06-16 02:57:29

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#8 2009-06-16 14:31:56

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#9 2009-06-16 14:32:28

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#10 2009-06-16 15:56:20

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#11 2009-06-16 16:55:20

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#12 2009-06-16 18:05:45

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#13 2009-06-16 20:04:14

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#14 2009-06-16 20:20:43

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#15 2009-06-16 21:21:07

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#16 2009-06-16 22:38:48

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#17 2009-06-17 00:50:42

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#18 2009-06-17 03:21:52

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#19 2009-06-17 16:19:35

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#20 2009-06-17 16:57:14

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#21 2009-06-17 19:02:49

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#22 2009-06-18 01:53:06

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#23 2009-06-18 06:12:41

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#24 2009-06-18 20:39:58

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

#25 2009-06-18 20:43:18

Re: [SOLVED] I want to switch to xmonad, but can't leave openbox b/c menu!

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