Leaving the door open for reiser4

ConnorBehan · 2007-08-02 04:46:08

I am liking what I read about Reiser4 and I am JUST about to install Arch. I'm sure it is a bit beyond my skill level to go for reiser4 right away but I would like to set up my system so as to make the move to reiser4 later, as painless as possible.

Here is what I am thinking... I will install Arch the normal way to start and partition my 100GB hard drive as such:

hda0 / 49GB (reiserFS)
hda1 49GB (empty-soon to be reiser4, no filesystem?)
hda2 1.9GB (swap)
hda3 /boot 100MB (ext2)

After this I will choose Lilo as my bootloader, configure it, and hopefully get through the installation process. I will then download reiser4progs and a patched kernel, but this is where I may need help. http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Reiser4FShowto recommends the -beyond patchset but as many of you know, this has been discontinued. I was thinking of using the fallen patchset. Does that mean that in Lilo.conf, i should replace "initramfs-beyond.img" with "initramfs-fallen.img" and replace "vmlinuz26beyond" with "vmlinuz26fallen" once I go further ahead with reiser4?

I am planning on installing Arch on hda0... then once I have the reiser4 capable kernel, formatting hda1 as reiser4 and moving all of my files to it. There are a few places here where the wiki article confuses me. Why backup /home? I will not have a separate partition for home, it will be on hda0. So can't I just move home from hda0 to hda1, the same way I move /bin, /etc, /lib, /opt and those directories from hda0 to hda1?

Also, the script in the wiki says to move these directories to /reiser4. Does that mean my root directory will end up being /reiser4 and not /? And when someone tells me to go to /etc/X11, I'll have to go to /reiser4/etc/X11?

I know some of those questions are embarrasing and show how miniscule my Linux knowledge is... luckily, that's it for now.

Last edited by ConnorBehan (2007-08-02 04:46:51)

bknitram · 2007-08-02 06:23:20

You might be able to use archboot to create an install cd, then change the kernel preinstalled on the cd before burning it.

It would give you reiser4 from the start.

Just an idea.

You would have to edit the mkbootcd config files to get them to build the result you want (I guess you would only need to change the kernel, but you would probably have to make and mount your filesystems without the help of the installer).

If you don't already have archlinux, you should probably install, but not configure or anything, and just use it to build a reiser4 install cd. Then with your new cd, you can go back and replace the partitions (and get a 98GB / partition) to install with reiser4. Make sure that not just the cd's kernel must be reiser4, your installed kernel must have reiser4 capabilities also .

Now I wish I had thought of this before installing Arch.

Last edited by bknitram (2007-08-02 06:48:42)

iphitus · 2007-08-02 09:23:43

Don't waste your time with reiser4. Its not worth the time you'll burn setting it up.

James

lucke · 2007-08-02 10:29:00

Don't be so negative, iphitus. It has its merits, as any FS.

ConnorBehan, I'd just create a ~5GB root partition and give the rest to /home (XFS is my choice here), install Arch, install reiser4-capable kernel (if you're stuck on reiser4), tar up root on /home, reformat / with e.g. RIP (you might try cryptcompress), untar root contents to your freshly formatted partition, change fstab and mkinitcpio.conf (you will have to explicitly add reiser4 module there), probably add "rootfstype=reiser4" to lilo.conf/grub.conf.

iphitus · 2007-08-02 12:42:53

lucke wrote:

Don't be so negative, iphitus. It has its merits, as any FS.
ConnorBehan, I'd just create a ~5GB root partition and give the rest to /home (XFS is my choice here), install Arch, install reiser4-capable kernel (if you're stuck on reiser4), tar up root on /home, reformat / with e.g. RIP (you might try cryptcompress), untar root contents to your freshly formatted partition, change fstab and mkinitcpio.conf (you will have to explicitly add reiser4 module there), probably add "rootfstype=reiser4" to lilo.conf/grub.conf.

And like any filesystem, it has it's negatives. Unlike others, it tends to have more. Especially as it's developmental.

Reiser4's future is looking pretty bad. It's been in -mm for ages, and doesnt look to be merged for a long while. It's long term maintainership is somewhat questionable, and this is a big roadblock, considering the history, namesys developers dumped reiserfs3 on the kernel, and now its near unmaintained, with no development and only critical/security updates. Reiser4 violates the kernel coding standards, and doesnt play as nicely with the kernel as it ought to.

This, and the maintainership question are what's keeping out of the kernel.

As for using it on Arch, there's no package in the repos, and few reliably maintained PKGBUILDS. You're going to find yourself stumbling around at one stage or another trying to get the latest kernel.

Given that, reiser4's going to be a bit more work, and a bit more trouble to get going on Arch, and into the forseeable future. Do you think it's really worth that trouble for a questionable gain?

James

Last edited by iphitus (2007-08-02 12:45:42)

dtw · 2007-08-02 13:07:46

I'm with Iphitus. On a simple desktop the hassle is not worth the gain. I switched back from Reiser4 a while back and it was a right PITA. You're also looking at probs with fixing you root FS if you use reiser4 because it requires any live-cd you use to have a compatible kernel...

Most people report much better results with ext3 and some optimizations

ConnorBehan · 2007-08-03 00:11:21

My understanding of it is that kernel developers are purposely not adding it because of the controversy surrounding Hans Reiser and his murdered wife. Even if he did do it, that has nothing to do with the software, it's good software and most sources say it is the fastest file system and it's also an atomic filesystem which pleases me very much.

iphitus a long time ago wrote:

reiser4 runs awesome, i've been using it for about 2 months now with no problems. It's fuckloads faster than ext3. I plan to convert more of my partitions to reiser4 when knoppix or a live cd that works on my computer actually works on my compy supports it.

Have you changed your mind since you posted this? Things like this convince me that I should try reiser4 someday, maybe not now, but i want to LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN. If more people install reiser4, this might convince developers to perfect the FS and put it in the vanilla kernel... I like Keynesian economics (start with the demand and the supply will follow).

lucke wrote:

ConnorBehan, I'd just create a ~5GB root partition and give the rest to /home (XFS is my choice here), install Arch, install reiser4-capable kernel (if you're stuck on reiser4), tar up root on /home, reformat / with e.g. RIP (you might try cryptcompress), untar root contents to your freshly formatted partition, change fstab and mkinitcpio.conf (you will have to explicitly add reiser4 module there), probably add "rootfstype=reiser4" to lilo.conf/grub.conf.

That sounds good. However I am planning on getting to know Arch a little on reiserFS before I install reiser4. Would it be a bad idea to do things like install Xorg, XFCE, firefox, azureus, openoffice in the hda0 partition AND THEN tar up the partition, keep it in /home on hda1 while I format hda0, then move it back?

If that's what I do, I'm better off with probably a 20GB root partition.

Once / resides on reiser4 hda0, I will move /home to hda0, then just merge hda1 with hda0 so its all one big reiser4 partition (can I do this?)

As far as configuring goes, the wiki says what lines to add to lilo.conf and fstab but not mkinitcpio.conf, I might need some help editing this file. Anyway, thanks for your comments everyone! I was planning on installing Arch today, but now I have to wait for a few replies .

lucke · 2007-08-03 00:54:39

For accuracy's sake, partition numbering in Linux starts with 1 (there's no hda0).

Sure, start with whatever filesystem, get familiar with Arch, you can tar up and reformat your root partition whenever you want. I'd strongly suggest keeping two separate partitions for root and /home (I actually wouldn't dare to go with reiser4 for a /home partition, especially considering that XFS is by far my favourite /home FS). 5GB or 10GB should be totally sufficient for root alone for a fully blown system (I'm fitting on 5GB with my KDE desktop, especially with cryptcompress), as you would keep non-system files on /home anyways. Backuping such a partition is convenient enough. You can't just merge partitions - you'd have to copy all data, erase both partitions, create one in their place and reformat.

I'd also suggest going with GRUB instead of LILO, it's way more flexible. Remember that you need to have a /boot partition for it all to work.

Keep in mind that doing it all requires some basic Linux knowledge.

JaDa · 2007-08-03 02:28:15

iphitus wrote:

lucke wrote:
Don't be so negative, iphitus. It has its merits, as any FS.
ConnorBehan, I'd just create a ~5GB root partition and give the rest to /home (XFS is my choice here), install Arch, install reiser4-capable kernel (if you're stuck on reiser4), tar up root on /home, reformat / with e.g. RIP (you might try cryptcompress), untar root contents to your freshly formatted partition, change fstab and mkinitcpio.conf (you will have to explicitly add reiser4 module there), probably add "rootfstype=reiser4" to lilo.conf/grub.conf.
And like any filesystem, it has it's negatives. Unlike others, it tends to have more. Especially as it's developmental.

James

Police Charge Hans Reiser with Murder
Judge Says Linux Guru Hans Reiser Can Stand Trial for Murder.
Judge denies motion to dismiss charges against Reiser

Software developer Hans Reiser pleaded not guilty Friday to charges that he murdered his wife Nina Reiser.

The Local news here talking and writing a lot over Hans Reiser. Hans Reiser maybe goes on death row, if he is found gulty first degree murder.

Nobody can tell what will be happened with "namesys" and the reiserfs. The development ...... ????

ConnorBehan · 2007-08-03 03:10:17

All that means is that we may never see reiser5. Power outages may be a problem, but if you a) use a laptop, b) use a UPS or c) keep backups, from what I hear, reiser4 is no more unstable than Flashplayer 9 beta.

lucke wrote:

Sure, start with whatever filesystem, get familiar with Arch, you can tar up and reformat your root partition whenever you want. I'd strongly suggest keeping two separate partitions for root and /home (I actually wouldn't dare to go with reiser4 for a /home partition, especially considering that XFS is by far my favourite /home FS). 5GB or 10GB should be totally sufficient for root alone for a fully blown system (I'm fitting on 5GB with my KDE desktop, especially with cryptcompress), as you would keep non-system files on /home anyways.

You are being very helpful lucke... you are saying I should use a 5-10GB / partition on reiser4 (if im stuck on it) and then keep the other ~90GB for /home on something more stable? Does that mean you install every application in /home? Currently I am using xUbuntu and virtually everything I get with APT installs into /usr by default or sometimes /opt and I've never felt the need to change this. Does pacman install everything to /home by default?

Anyway, if all my packages are in /home, that means I will hardly ever get a taste of reiser4's speed when running programs. I will really only see how it does when I edit system files or download a pacman package (because it will read the database which is in /var).

lucke wrote:

I'd also suggest going with GRUB instead of LILO, it's way more flexible. Remember that you need to have a /boot partition for it all to work.

Yes I will have a 50-100MB /boot partition on ext2. GRUB requires a patch to work with reiser4 and http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=17316 makes it sound difficult to apply. Besides, I want to try LILO because I've never tried it before, and I don't care about bootloaders being flexible. Right now, I have GRUB set to give me 1 second to possibly switch to windoze, otherwise it boots Ubunutu. When I put in my new drive, I will install Arch and NOT windoze and NOT ubuntu, so I only need a bootloader to load Arch, plain and simple.

Last edited by ConnorBehan (2007-08-03 03:13:57)

lucke · 2007-08-03 05:29:16

This 5GB-10GB root is essentially for installed programs and libraries and /var contents (thus indeed making it a good choice for reiser4), while /home is for all _your_ (not system) files. As mentioned, 5GB is enough for programs - it's better to leave more place for _your_ files (/home partition). It's just a tip, though, you're obviously free to create whatever size partitions you want.

I mentioned GRUB, because it offers interactive command line and edition of entries on the fly, which is a big asset (perhaps something has changed over the years and LILO caught up in these regards, but then I'd probably hear about it), especially with Arch (mkinitcpio and whatnot) and when playing with more experimental stuff (like you want to). Patching GRUB (and possibly LILO) is needed only when reiser4 (or ext4 or some other unsupported by bootloaders FS) is on your /boot partition (i.e. you have no separate /boot partition from root), that's why I reminded you to remember about creating one. Choice of bootloader is obviously yours to make, consider those tips from apparently a more seasoned Linux user.

ConnorBehan · 2007-08-04 00:19:58

Oh ok, perfect... so /home on ext3 will be for all my treasured songs, pictures, videos, homework, and so on, while my programs will run from / like they do now but with reiser4... I will still feel more comfortable giving about 20GB to / in case I want to install large software, openoffice, blender, cinelerra, etc (my system MIGHT be able to run them). And yes I will install GRUB if having it on an ext2 /boot partition makes it perfectly capable of booting Arch whose root directory is on reiser4, even if GRUB is unpatched.

Just for some last bit of clarity... once I am at the stage where I switch to a patched kernel and copy my root directory to say /home/rootdir.tar.gz, I will have to format the partition holding the original root directory as reiser4 (erasing all data). The command will be in memory so it will finish, but after that my Arch install will be broken... nothing will be in the root directory and Arch will not run out of /home/rootdir.tar.gz. So the final step of unpacking /home/rootdir.tar.gz to the newly created reiser4 partition, fixing fstab and fscking, thus fixing Arch, must be done from a reiser4 enabled LiveCD, correct?

The wiki recommends http://www.lxnaydesign.net/. I will use that to do the final step, then keep regular backups. Thank you for wonderful help, I hope I didn't get anything grossly wrong in this post.

Last edited by ConnorBehan (2007-08-04 00:23:52)

Ramses de Norre · 2007-08-04 00:47:09

The /reiser4/ folder you talked about is probably just a temporary mount point to access the reiser4 partition from your initial install, once you boot the system installed there you will have / as usual.

lucke · 2007-08-04 06:27:26

You format with reiser4 and then untar root backup from a reiser4-enabled LiveCD. I personally suggest RIP, linked in my first post. Later you can do backups from your running system.

ConnorBehan · 2007-08-04 22:10:25

Alright that looks like a great way to do it, I think I understand what I need to do. I will install Arch tommorow before I go to work and try reiser4 maybe a few days after that.

Btw, the Arch wiki article on reiser4 is outdated: Sabayon Linux no longer supports reiser4. I'll change that LiveCD to one that currently does. Thanks.

iphitus · 2007-08-05 10:34:33

ConnorBehan wrote:

My understanding of it is that kernel developers are purposely not adding it because of the controversy surrounding Hans Reiser and his murdered wife. Even if he did do it, that has nothing to do with the software, it's good software and most sources say it is the fastest file system and it's also an atomic filesystem which pleases me very much.

Software is added on technical merits. What Hans did has nothing to do with it not being merged. Hans is not the only developer.

Why not?
* Maintenance in doubt
* Not up to standards of the kernel

Those are pretty big issues. You can't ignore them, for details, read my post above that you kindly ignored thinking you were a smarty with the quote below.

iphitus a long time ago wrote:
reiser4 runs awesome, i've been using it for about 2 months now with no problems. It's fuckloads faster than ext3. I plan to convert more of my partitions to reiser4 when knoppix or a live cd that works on my computer actually works on my compy supports it.
Have you changed your mind since you posted this? Things like this convince me that I should try reiser4 someday, maybe not now, but i want to LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN. If more people install reiser4, this might convince developers to perfect the FS and put it in the vanilla kernel... I like Keynesian economics (start with the demand and the supply will follow).

Definitely have. That quote is from december 2004. It's now, mid 2007, over 2 and a half years later. So it's quite fair that I could change my mind.

a) Back then I was a stupid ricer
b) Reiser4 had more hope and weight behind it.
c) I'd never set up ext3 properly

I don't care whether you like whatever economics. The kernel development does not follow those economics. It follow's technical merit. Reiser4 is not ready for the kernel because of a multitude of different things. It hasnt been ready for over 3 years, and that's not changing over night. A mass installation of it isnt going to change squat.

James

Obi-Lan · 2007-08-08 15:19:54

I guess you cant be fully mentally sane if you develop something like filesystems...

I prefer ones that are in kernel. I guess if kernel developers think that those are good, then its good enough for me.If I want faster harddisk performance I could get raid controller and three or four harddisks in raid5 or in raid0 for performance.

tmadhavan · 2007-08-10 10:25:01

I'll second Iphitus (or am I thirding now?). Anyway, when I first started using Arch and the other linuces, Reiser seemed cool because there are a lot of benchmanrks saying how fast it is and what not. In reality it's only quicker (if I remember correctly) for systems with lots of tiny files, and in my experience there's no appreciable performance improvement using ReiserFS. As mentioned, if you want a performance increase, get some RAID on the go

As time has gone on and I've gained more experience with Linux, I've come to the conclusion that ext3 is a safe bet for my filesystems - though to be fair I've not really ever looked into XFS or JFS.

mykey · 2007-08-11 08:52:35

I do see your point guys but I am using reiser4 since way over a year now and really like the performance - I had a corrupt filesystem and managed to get it restored once (had to reinstall the involved packages though). I appreciate reiser4 patchsets in aur kernels since they save me the time to apply them myself - I'd rather say yes, definitely keep the door open for reiser4. I like it.

Last edited by mykey (2007-08-11 09:03:11)

ConnorBehan · 2007-08-29 03:29:17

I never wanted this to become a debate, after about 2 months of not having access to my computer, I have finally installed Arch and I am quite certain that the problems I am having can be easily resolved. During the installation I still planned on trying Reiser4 so I picked ReiserFS. I haven't run a benchmark but ReiserFS seems very fast at the moment. I don't plan on installing Reiser4 any time soon, I have enough on my plate. Thanks to all who offered the ideas, maybe I will try them on another computer. Also thank you to those who felt it was their duty to dissuade me and save me alot of grief.

Arch Linux

#1 2007-08-02 04:46:08

Leaving the door open for reiser4

#2 2007-08-02 06:23:20

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#3 2007-08-02 09:23:43

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#4 2007-08-02 10:29:00

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#5 2007-08-02 12:42:53

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#6 2007-08-02 13:07:46

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#7 2007-08-03 00:11:21

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#8 2007-08-03 00:54:39

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#9 2007-08-03 02:28:15

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#10 2007-08-03 03:10:17

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#11 2007-08-03 05:29:16

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#12 2007-08-04 00:19:58

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#13 2007-08-04 00:47:09

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#14 2007-08-04 06:27:26

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#15 2007-08-04 22:10:25

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#16 2007-08-05 10:34:33

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#17 2007-08-08 15:19:54

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#18 2007-08-10 10:25:01

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#19 2007-08-11 08:52:35

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

#20 2007-08-29 03:29:17

Re: Leaving the door open for reiser4

Board footer