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#126 2010-10-26 16:23:33

mcgrew
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Registered: 2010-10-26
Posts: 3

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Thanks, I must have missed that when reading through the thread.

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#127 2010-10-26 16:41:07

shetland_breeder
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From: England
Registered: 2010-05-17
Posts: 57
Website

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Seems to me that with any major upgrade a few things are goint to be broken for some people.

In this case  the devs have thoughtfully named Python 2.7 as python2, and Python3.1 as python3 with a symlink from usr/bin/python usr/bin/python3.

So until Python 3 becomes mainstream the easy solution to things that don't work under Python2.7 is just to install 2.6.5 from the AUR (which installs as python) and make local PKGBUILDS for anything that needs to go into site-packages, eg pychecker. Could make 2.6.5 python26 - but why make it more complicated than it needs to be...

A _lot_ easier than backing off the updates to 2.7/3.1, and doesn't break anything (yet!).

Pete

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#128 2010-10-30 19:22:58

graysky
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From: /run/user/1000
Registered: 2008-12-01
Posts: 8,338
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Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

kvn wrote:
bond wrote:

I'm having a bit of trouble with flexget (http://flexget.com/)

$ svn co http://svn.flexget.com/trunk flexget-dev
#modify binding
$ nano flexget-dev/bootstrap.py
$ python2 flexget-dev/bootstrap.py

Results in lots of import errors
or attempting the .egg;

$ wget http://download.flexget.com/unstable/Fl … -py2.6.egg -p /tmp
$ sudo easy_install-2.7 /tmp/FlexGet-1.0r1532-py2.6.egg

#Generate paver-minilib.zip
#OSError: [Errno 20] Not a directory: 'paver-minilib.zip/paver/__init__.py'

any tips?

sudo easy_install pip
sudo pip install flexget

after that, it might work. i'm having issues with the transmissionrpc/backlog/sqlalchemy plugin from working after though. I've created a ticket here

http://flexget.com/ticket/757


Hmmm... there is a python-pip package in the repos but there isn't one for flexget.  There are two in the AUR but neither works!


CPU-optimized Linux-ck packages @ Repo-ck  • AUR packagesZsh and other configs

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#129 2010-11-03 18:36:17

Frem
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From: Longview, TX
Registered: 2005-02-27
Posts: 56
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Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Late to the party, but as a former Arch user I'm extremely surprised at this change. It's roughly akin to a decision to ship Perl 6 as the default, both in that Python 3 is a major language update that is not backwards compatible and in that upstream strongly discourages it.

How does this change affect easy_install and PyPi?

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#130 2010-11-03 23:28:02

Allan
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From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,327
Website

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Frem wrote:

It's roughly akin to a decision to ship Perl 6 as the default, both in that Python 3 is a major language update that is not backwards compatible and in that upstream strongly discourages it.

Completely wrong.  Perl 6 is still not released (as far as I know). and python 3 is.  Also, the python developers have stopped development of python-2.x and are only making bug fixes.   Python-3 is the focus of upstream development.


How does this change affect easy_install and PyPi?

It doesn't...

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#131 2010-11-04 15:27:48

Frem
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From: Longview, TX
Registered: 2005-02-27
Posts: 56
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Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Allan wrote:
Frem wrote:

It's roughly akin to a decision to ship Perl 6 as the default, both in that Python 3 is a major language update that is not backwards compatible and in that upstream strongly discourages it.

Completely wrong.

Wrong in that it's a major non-backwards compatible language update, or  wrong in that upstream strongly recommended against linking to Python 3 by default? I base the comparison solely on those two attributes.

Allan wrote:

Also, the python developers have stopped development of python-2.x and are only making bug fixes. Python-3 is the focus of upstream development.

This is true. However, the vast majority of Python application developers still use the 2.x line, and will for several more years. The Python 3 libraries just aren't there yet. I'm not sure making things more difficult for both application developers and users of non-packaged python scripts by adopting a non-standard /usr/bin/python link accomplishes anything.

Arch Linux wiki wrote:

Arch provides non-patched, vanilla software; packages are offered from pure upstream sources, how the author originally intended it be distributed.

I read something like this the first time I encountered Arch Linux, and it was one of the big things that appealed to me. My perception of the decision to do progressive, funky things with Python is that it runs counter to this philosophy.

Allan wrote:
Frem wrote:

How does this change affect easy_install and PyPi?

It doesn't...

Good to know. :-)

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#132 2010-11-04 15:59:42

igndenok
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From: Sidoarjo, Indonesia
Registered: 2010-06-07
Posts: 160

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Frem wrote:

However, the vast majority of Python application developers still use the 2.x line, and will for several more years

Lets hope that Python major version still 3 for several more years, not 4 and yet many dev still using Python 2.x even after several more years.

Jubal Early: Does that seem right to you?

Last edited by igndenok (2010-11-04 16:01:12)


Ask, and it shall be given you.
Seek, and ye shall find.
Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

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#133 2010-11-05 00:05:57

tomk
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From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,835

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Frem wrote:
Arch Linux wiki wrote:

Arch provides non-patched, vanilla software; packages are offered from pure upstream sources, how the author originally intended it be distributed.

I read something like this the first time I encountered Arch Linux, and it was one of the big things that appealed to me. My perception of the decision to do progressive, funky things with Python is that it runs counter to this philosophy.

Nice quote. Here's another one:

Arch Linux wiki also wrote:

Arch Linux strives to maintain the latest stable version of its software, based on a rolling-release system.

Arch developers and maintainers embrace all of Arch's principles and values, and act accordingly. Arch users are of course free to disagree with any or all of those principles and values, and configure their own system the way they want it.

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#134 2010-11-05 13:40:20

Frem
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From: Longview, TX
Registered: 2005-02-27
Posts: 56
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Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

tomk wrote:
Arch Linux wiki also wrote:

Arch Linux strives to maintain the latest stable version of its software, based on a rolling-release system.

Arch developers and maintainers embrace all of Arch's principles and values, and act accordingly. Arch users are of course free to disagree with any or all of those principles and values, and configure their own system the way they want it.

Right, and I do. I just don't see "supporting the latest version of Python 3" and "supplying a symlink that works the same way as literally every other distribution" as goals that are at odds with each other.

There's also the principle of simplicity. This change complicates things for Python users and developers. All Python 3 code at the moment and likely for some time will use the python3 link. This convention might even stick around until a python4 link becomes available, in which case /usr/bin/python can point to anything. But by making the change now, seamless interoperability between Arch and other distributions is harder; you loose the important "it just works" property of a scripting language.

Edit:
Compared to the alternative, it seems like it would almost be better just not to have a package-supplied /usr/bin/python link. The reason why non-distro supplied Python 2 programs weren't working would be more obvious to the user (missing /usr/bin/python rather than syntax error), and simpler to fix (creating a symlink rather than patching programs or whatever).

Last edited by Frem (2010-11-05 13:55:03)

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#135 2010-11-05 23:20:06

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,327
Website

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

This is bleeding edge.  We make changes like this first and as a consequence sort out issues for other distributions.  Already a lot of bugs have been filed about programs not changing their shebangs to represent the version of python used to do the installation.   And people from other distros are taking notice at how this transition is going and discussing how a similar change could be made for them, and how to improve how it was done.

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#136 2010-11-06 02:09:39

cb474
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 465

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Allan wrote:

This is bleeding edge.  We make changes like this first and as a consequence sort out issues for other distributions.

I don't really recall, when I was first getting into Arch and reading the wiki that the emphasis was so strongly on "bleeding edge," but rather on keep it simple and on being a rolling release.

The rolling release element of Arch is really what I like (for which there aren't a lot of options amongst other distros). In exchange I don't mind bleeding a bit. But sometimes it does seem a bit more like hemorrhaging.

The impression I get from the developers and administrators responding in this thread to Frem's thoughts and concerns, which seem reasonable to me, is to put an emphasis on the bleeding part and to present Arch as if it is a distro meant soley for developers, not for end users (like me). But when I look at the introduction to Arch in the wiki, in the "Arch Linux" and "The Arch Way" sections, I really don't see where it says this is supposed to be an absolute bleeding edge distro, best used only by developers and sophisticated coders.

If in fact that is what Arch has become, perhaps the Wiki should be edited accordingly.

tomk wrote:

Arch developers and maintainers embrace all of Arch's principles and values, and act accordingly. Arch users are of course free to disagree with any or all of those principles and values, and configure their own system the way they want it.

It's a nice idea that the principles could be so bright and clear and obvious. But I don't think it's very realistic. The principles are open to interpretation. There is not one clear obvious meaning that they have. It is easy to see Frem's points as fitting well within the principles of Arch as outlined in the wiki. The developers and maintainers are doing their best to interpret and adhere to the spirit of the principles. But that doesn't mean that everything they do is right and could not be otherwise and that there are no possible other ways to interpret things and user suggestions might not be worthwhile and relevant.

Of course, at the end of the day, the developers and maintainers have all of the power over what actually happens, so they do get to impose their interpretation. But that does not make it the one and only possible correct understanding of the Arch principles and values. It even seems unlikey that the developers and maintainers always agree 100% amongst themselves about how to interpret the Arch principles and values. So on the occasion of a big upgrade, like the shift to Python 3, it makes sense that there might be a discussion about how to best understand and apply the Arch principles and values. Frem's thoughts seem worth at least considering.

Last edited by cb474 (2010-11-06 02:23:28)

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#137 2010-11-06 03:30:48

Allan
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From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,327
Website

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

cb474 wrote:

If in fact that is what Arch has become, perhaps the Wiki should be edited accordingly.

I think you will find it was what Arch always was.  The wiki should just say that "Arch is whatever its developers decide it is"...

Edit: I'll add that the whole thing is too late to discuss now.  It has happened and will not change back.  People who are interested in discussing Arch development should follow the arch-dev-public list and make comments as ideas are brought up.   This was first discussed over six months ago.

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#138 2010-11-06 03:34:38

cb474
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 465

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Allan wrote:

The wiki should just say that "Arch is whatever its developers decide it is"...

It often seems like that would better reflect the truth... wink

Allan wrote:

Edit: I'll add that the whole thing is too late to discuss now.  It has happened and will not change back.  People who are interested in discussing Arch development should follow the arch-dev-public list and make comments as ideas are brought up.   This was first discussed over six months ago.

Yes, as far as Python 3 goes that it certainly true. It's been done and would be a mess to go back. But the more general discussion of how bleeding or not bleeding Arch might be and what exactly the Arch principles do, can, and should mean, remains relevant to future decisions the developers make. It seems like expecting your average end user to follow arch-dev-public list might be a bit unrealistic. Obviously it's all up to the developers in the end what happens, but it would be nice if end user sentiment from the forums had some relevance too. The vast user base for Arch is also part of what makes Arch what it is.

Last edited by cb474 (2010-11-06 03:40:04)

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#139 2010-11-06 03:48:42

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,327
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Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Maybe, but discussion is worthless.  Arch is not a democracy:  http://www.archlinux.org/static/magazin … ontributed

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#140 2010-11-06 04:11:17

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 18,069
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Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Allan wrote:

I'll add that the whole thing is too late to discuss now.  It has happened and will not change back.  People who are interested in discussing Arch development should follow the arch-dev-public list and make comments as ideas are brought up.   This was first discussed over six months ago.

Indeed. This is borderline TGN. If no-one else has any impressions to share about the upgrade itself, then we can bikeshed it...


Arch + dwm   •   Mercurial repos  •   Github

Registered Linux User #482438

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#141 2010-11-06 08:41:38

cb474
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 465

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

Allan wrote:

Maybe, but discussion is worthless.  Arch is not a democracy:  http://www.archlinux.org/static/magazin … ontributed

I never suggested Arch is a democracy or that people should have a vote on things (as your link discusses). I even explicitly acknowledged that in the end the developers have complete control over what happens. But does not being a democracy in your understanding mean completely shutting out and not listening to end users at all? Most businesses aren't a democracy, but they're still interested in feedback from people who use their products. I just don't see what not being a democracy has to do with rejecting discussion and feedback.

That said, I'm sure the developers get lots of unhelpful feedback and not enough appreciation for all the work they do. So I don't want to create the impression that I don't appreciate the people who create Arch and put a lot of work into and make it possible. I think it's great work that the developers do and I'm grateful for it.

Last edited by cb474 (2010-11-06 08:59:08)

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#142 2010-11-06 13:27:13

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 6,772

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

cb474 wrote:
Allan wrote:

Maybe, but discussion is worthless.  Arch is not a democracy:  http://www.archlinux.org/static/magazin … ontributed

I never suggested Arch is a democracy or that people should have a vote on things (as your link discusses). I even explicitly acknowledged that in the end the developers have complete control over what happens. But does not being a democracy in your understanding mean completely shutting out and not listening to end users at all? Most businesses aren't a democracy, but they're still interested in feedback from people who use their products. I just don't see what not being a democracy has to do with rejecting discussion and feedback.

That said, I'm sure the developers get lots of unhelpful feedback and not enough appreciation for all the work they do. So I don't want to create the impression that I don't appreciate the people who create Arch and put a lot of work into and make it possible. I think it's great work that the developers do and I'm grateful for it.

Well, a bit of a problem in that Arch is not a business, and its not set up so as to get new users.

You've got a good attitude though, spot on for the topic. Now, perhaps we should leave this thread alone, this is quite OT already.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#143 2010-11-06 20:55:54

cb474
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 465

Re: "Python2 & 3 major rebuild" upgrade - impressions ?

ngoonee wrote:

Well, a bit of a problem in that Arch is not a business, and its not set up so as to get new users.

You've got a good attitude though, spot on for the topic. Now, perhaps we should leave this thread alone, this is quite OT already.

I didn't mean to suggest that Arch is a business. It was just an example to make a point about the value of feedback and discussion in many contexts, not just democracies.

But anyway, I'll drop it now, as you suggest, since this has gotten very off topic.

Last edited by cb474 (2010-11-06 20:56:30)

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