Arch Linux

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

I'm not going to tell nor do I care how the TUs should manage themselves, I'm looking at the whole matter from the normal user's point of view. I've no interest in TU business,

What are you smoking? The whole POINT of the TU system was that  they are normal users!!! Dude, what do you think the "U" in TU stands for!? Its the same as the "U" in AUR!!!

If the "normal normal" users are trying to push TUs to some godlike inaccessible status like the devs, then there is no hope.  I suppose we need to "educate the users" (I've learned that term in the workplace. Its gross) and the trusted users that trusted users are just users. THEN it may be possible for the TUs to accomplish all that is needed.

Dusty

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** Arch Linux Apparel and more ** Arch Linux stickers, laptop bags, jewelery ** I wrote a book on Python 3 ** and one on mental health **

phrakture

Arch Overlord

From: behind you

Registered: 2003-10-29

Posts: 7,879

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

If the "normal normal" users are trying to push TUs to some godlike inaccessible status like the devs, then there is no hope.  I suppose we need to "educate the users" (I've learned that term in the workplace. Its gross) and the trusted users that trusted users are just users. THEN it may be possible for the TUs to accomplish all that is needed.

Umm if they're normal users why do I never see them on the forums, IRC, or anything else...

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http://phraktured.net

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

If the "normal normal" users are trying to push TUs to some godlike inaccessible status like the devs, then there is no hope.  I suppose we need to "educate the users" (I've learned that term in the workplace. Its gross) and the trusted users that trusted users are just users. THEN it may be possible for the TUs to accomplish all that is needed.

Umm if they're normal users why do I never see them on the forums, IRC, or anything else...

Because for the most part they're thoroughly pissed off by the inanities that go on around here. To a lesser extent, because "normal" users like yourself say its too much work to be a TU, though you're happy to maintain a repository of your own.  And to a lesser extent again, because they are normal users and you see them in IRC and don't even realize they are TUs, you believe they're normal. And finally, because they don't seem to have voted on "people like dibble" to join the team.

This last may be because they see themselves as an elite as well. If they think they are better than normal users and normal users think the TUs are better than them, well I guess I'm wrong and the whole thing has missed its original goals. But believe me, I know the original goals.

Dusty

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** Arch Linux Apparel and more ** Arch Linux stickers, laptop bags, jewelery ** I wrote a book on Python 3 ** and one on mental health **

phrakture

Arch Overlord

From: behind you

Registered: 2003-10-29

Posts: 7,879

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

Because for the most part they're thoroughly pissed off by the inanities that go on around here. To a lesser extent, because "normal" users like yourself say its too much work to be a TU, though you're happy to maintain a repository of your own.  And to a lesser extent again, because they are normal users and you see them in IRC and don't even realize they are TUs, you believe they're normal. And finally, because they don't seem to have voted on "people like dibble" to join the team.

Nah, that wasn't my point... I know who a few of the TUs are, you can check the TUR list, and the AUR maintainers for the community repo.  What I'm trying to say is, most of the people don't participate with the rest of the community... I see package maintainers and devs more than some of the TUs...

It seems odd to me that those in charge of the community don't even seem to be part of the community.

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http://phraktured.net

dtw

Forum Fellow

From: UK

Registered: 2004-08-03

Posts: 4,439

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

most of the TUs are devs too, i think - if we ever do get a list of active TUs I'm keen to see what other responsibilities they have

i3839

Member

Registered: 2004-02-04

Posts: 1,185

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the TUR started as a group of users who wanted to have their own repo without the inconvenience of incomming. Apparently at some point they wanted to manage more packets and do more, and solve the incomming problem, hence stuff like staging etc. came. That didn't work too well as not enough packages were pushed from incomming to TUR to staging, and finally we have AUR, with again the same people in the TU group having control. Now how many new TUs are there since more or less the beginning? One new TU a month won't do it I'm afraid. As it looks now there are about 15 TUs at the most. You think they should and can manage 1000 packages? I'm not that optimistic.

So as far as I can see the current TU system will only work if we have a lot more TUs, about 50 to 100 or so.

We may not have control over AUR, but we can use it.

My ideal view of a TU system: Bunch of people who audit pkgbuilds and help users to improve their pkbuild when it's not good enough (the education part). They don't make pkgbuilds (of course they can, but as anyone else can), but help users to make pkgbuilds and put the good ones in some AUR repo (e.g. "community"). Even if someone is known to make good pkgbuilds, having a second pair of eyes looking at it wont hurt. I don't believe in automated auditing, though a program to check for the worst may be useful. So pkgbuilds would be judges by quality and safety, not by who the maker is.

The above implies a lot communication between TUs and other users, and also between the TUs to discuss pkgbuilds when needed.

I think the TUs aren't very visible because they don't have that much time, like most people.

I'm smoking pessimism about the current TU system, that's all Dusty. Of course TUs are normal users, I know that, but with normal in that context I meant the not trusted users, like most of us. But the TUs are just a group of users who want to do all the work, but of course can't, at least that's my impression of them. My view is to let users do the work, and let TUs do mostly the things which Trust is actually needed for, like auditing.

Xentac

Forum Fellow

From: Victoria, BC

Registered: 2003-01-17

Posts: 1,797

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the TUR started as a group of users who wanted to have their own repo without the inconvenience of incomming. Apparently at some point they wanted to manage more packets and do more, and solve the incomming problem, hence stuff like staging etc. came. That didn't work too well as not enough packages were pushed from incomming to TUR to staging, and finally we have AUR, with again the same people in the TU group having control. Now how many new TUs are there since more or less the beginning? One new TU a month won't do it I'm afraid. As it looks now there are about 15 TUs at the most. You think they should and can manage 1000 packages? I'm not that optimistic.

You are wrong.  I started the trusted users (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=1810).  I picked dedicated users from the community to help manage the packages from incoming.  How they managed incoming has changed over the years (well, year and a half).  We started off with about 5 or 6 of them.  We had a crappy web interface that I fought to get going on berlios.de.

The idea of staging probably came from farphel, back before he was a developer, right around here (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?p=9599#9599).  It was debated and eventually created as the "One True Repo" through which all packages would go from incoming to extra.

Since then there's always been a developer to guide them and manage the backend software.

Did you know that there were no TUs being accepted from the time when the AUR was originally planned until it was actually implemented?  Did you know that that was about a year period?  It's difficult to stimulate group growth after a year of stagnation.  Please bear with them.

To address the 1000 packages note.  There are less than 15 developers now that manage nearly 2000 packages.  Not only that, but I think we get a new developer maybe twice a year.  How are the TUs any different?  You're just not optimistic because things aren't happening right away exactly the way you want.  If you do want change, the best place to go about it is the tur-users list (link below).  Write a patch, make a suggestion for the new AUR guideline, do something.  The key there is actually doing something, not just complaining about no one else doing anything.

EDIT: To add to that, I'd say it's better to grow too slowly than too quickly.  If you grow too slowly and have a dedicated team, less will get done.  If you grow too quickly, dedicated team or not, all you get is chaos.

So as far as I can see the current TU system will only work if we have a lot more TUs, about 50 to 100 or so.

We may not have control over AUR, but we can use it.

You do have control over the AUR.  They were supposed to be autonomous and self-governed and accountable to the community (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?p=29739#29739).  If they're not, hold their feet to the fire.  Your voice matters, even if you don't think so.

They are always open to discussion and will always respond.  We even created a list for people to talk about TUR related stuff.  It's called tur-users (http://www.archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users/).  If you want to discuss something, go there.  You will have the undivided attention of all the TUs and most of the devs.

My ideal view of a TU system: Bunch of people who audit pkgbuilds and help users to improve their pkbuild when it's not good enough (the education part). They don't make pkgbuilds (of course they can, but as anyone else can), but help users to make pkgbuilds and put the good ones in some AUR repo (e.g. "community"). Even if someone is known to make good pkgbuilds, having a second pair of eyes looking at it wont hurt. I don't believe in automated auditing, though a program to check for the worst may be useful. So pkgbuilds would be judges by quality and safety, not by who the maker is.

The above implies a lot communication between TUs and other users, and also between the TUs to discuss pkgbuilds when needed.

That's crazy.  It's very similar to my view, when I first created it, especially the communication part.  I once got into a fight with sarah31 about TUs actually having to talk to the community and have open channels, etc.  The key for you to understand is that they are open, you just have to talk on the tur-users list.  They won't come to you, you have to come to them.

I think the TUs aren't very visible because they don't have that much time, like most people.

I'm smoking pessimism about the current TU system, that's all Dusty. Of course TUs are normal users, I know that, but with normal in that context I meant the not trusted users, like most of us. But the TUs are just a group of users who want to do all the work, but of course can't, at least that's my impression of them. My view is to let users do the work, and let TUs do mostly the things which Trust is actually needed for, like auditing.

TUs were originally chosen because they were doing most of the work.  If you want to do work too, then do it.  The key is doing the work, then becoming a TU, not becoming a TU, then doing work.

This is dibble's cue to start crying that he has done the work and that he should be a TU, dammit!  I'm not arguing that he hasn't done work.  I'm also not arguing that he shouldn't be a TU.

The best response I have for anyone who thinks that development in Arch doesn't move fast enough is, "Things happen in Arch, they just don't happen as quickly as some people would like."  Judd said that back when I used to complain about things not getting done.

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I have discovered that all of mans unhappiness derives from only one source, not being able to sit quietly in a room
- Blaise Pascal

neotuli

Lazy Developer

From: London, UK

Registered: 2004-07-06

Posts: 1,204

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

You know, this could all be solved with a simple (not so simple?) app that validated the safety of PKGBUILDs, install files, and binary packages.

It's not difficult, but the logic would be overwhelming.  Maybe we could start there... for instance, validating a package would make sure it has no empty dirs, direcotry permissions do not differ from the existing file system, none of the files exist in the base system, and it passes namcap flawlessly.
Beyond that, validating an install file is harder and PKGBUILD harder still.

It is, in fact, impossible to ensure a safe PKGBUILD, it is up to the USER to do something about it, which is the point of having PKGBUILD-only packages in the AUR. The USER has to actually (god forbid) DO SOMETHING!
If you have trouble believing me, please, feel free, write your magical script, give me 5 minutes, and I'll show you a way it may be circumvented. Believe me when I say that much thought was already put into that and the resounding truth that never fails to come out is that there is no way to be absolutely sure, and around here 99.9% won't cut it (though in this case the best odds you'll get are maybe 50-50, if even).

Everyone in this thread, with the exception of dibble, is complaining about the TU system, but has not applied for a TU position themselves. I fail to understand why one is content with sitting back and discussing. I understand that some of you say you don't have the time. Well you seem to damned well have enough time to spend here on these forums yapping about it, I suggest you put your mouths and time to better use.

I'm appalled at the stance you have all taken against the TUs, without even bringing these issues you seem to have with them to their attention (for the most part), and in a civil manner.

Moral of the story:
Get off your asses and do something for a change.

PS: I hear that the moderators are being real nazis about "hostile atmosphere" threads and such lately. Well this is such a thread against all the TUs...why haven't your highnesses done something about it?

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The suggestion box only accepts patches.

cactus

Taco Eater

From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰

Registered: 2004-05-25

Posts: 4,622

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

It is, in fact, impossible to ensure a safe PKGBUILD, it is up to the USER to do something about it, which is the point of having PKGBUILD-only packages in the AUR. The USER has to actually (god forbid) DO SOMETHING!
If you have trouble believing me, please, feel free, write your magical script, give me 5 minutes, and I'll show you a way it may be circumvented. Believe me when I say that much thought was already put into that and the resounding truth that never fails to come out is that there is no way to be absolutely sure, and around here 99.9% won't cut it (though in this case the best odds you'll get are maybe 50-50, if even).

Proof isnt even required. I believe a look to complexity theory would show that proving that all programs for any given language are valid is an np problem.

Everyone in this thread, with the exception of dibble, is complaining about the TU system, but has not applied for a TU position themselves. I fail to understand why one is content with sitting back and discussing. I understand that some of you say you don't have the time. Well you seem to damned well have enough time to spend here on these forums yapping about it, I suggest you put your mouths and time to better use.

In all honestly, it hasn't gone very well for dibble now has it? It doesnt seem like the TUs really want more people. At least that is the perception from the peanut gallery, which is all we really are out here in user land. We dont know what goes on behind the scenes. We just go off the information that we have.

Maybe if there was a bit more dialog between the two groups, more appropriate dialog could spring forth. I subscribe to the tur-user list, and dibble has brought many of these issues to that list. I have heard little response as to many of the issues he has brought up there, and even less response given in the forums.

I'm appalled at the stance you have all taken against the TUs, without even bringing these issues you seem to have with them to their attention (for the most part), and in a civil manner.

I don't see what has been uncivil so far. It is not like we are calling for their impeachment or anything. Just voicing our concerns and percieved problems with the current system.

Moral of the story:
Get off your asses and do something for a change.

I appreciate the motivational lecture. What would you have us do? We, as a community, already make tons of packages. I don't see what you want us to do about the TUR system, since we have no control over it, except by voicing our opinions and concerns about it.

Really...What would you have us do?

PS: I hear that the moderators are being real nazis about "hostile atmosphere" threads and such lately. Well this is such a thread against all the TUs...why haven't your highnesses done something about it?

Wow. What warrented that?
Apparently criticism of the TUs is unacceptable, I take it?
More seriously, I don't see this discussion as out of hand. Thankfully I don't have to make that decision anymore, since I resigned as a forum moderator. I find it interesting that you criticize one group for behaving in an uncivil manner, then turn around and insult another group.

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"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

dtw

Forum Fellow

From: UK

Registered: 2004-08-03

Posts: 4,439

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

/me puts forum adviser hat on

This really is a good thread and it is great to see the TUs joining the discussion here.  Both sides have strong views about the situation but we are ALL experienced members of the community with a share of valid opinions and good/bad ideas so lets not have a massive flame war, eh?

/me ends forum adviser public service announcement, thank you for your time

iphitus

Forum Fellow

From: Melbourne, Australia

Registered: 2004-10-09

Posts: 4,927

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

Everyone in this thread, with the exception of dibble, is complaining about the TU system, but has not applied for a TU position themselves.

Maybe if you start accepting new TUs, people would try. dibble has tried and so far he still hasnt got the votes.

Me? Why dont I apply? I am busy working on the Archie liveCD project. Although I did put in an application for Arch developer, but i doubt it'll be accepted, but I am willing to do boring stuff like keeping a group of packages up to date and quickly.

iphitus

dtw

Forum Fellow

From: UK

Registered: 2004-08-03

Posts: 4,439

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

As me again:

Sadly, criticism of TU/AUR processes does infer criticism of the TUs themselves because they are self-governed.  However, without users highlighting the issues they have with the current system the TUs do not know that those issues exist and, as Xentac and I said, you can't expect them to comb the forums looking for such feedback when the mailing list is there for just that purpose.

I would like to see more "publicity" and discussion by the TUs on the forums about the AUR but this, again, does also have to be predominately lead by the users or, at the very least, requested by the users.

As I understand it, and as reinforced by some of what Xentac just said, the TUs are accountable to the community and are there to faciltate process on behalf of the community.  But, as has been said many times, there is clearly a "gap" between the users and TUs.  Identifying where fault lies regarding this gap does help to solve certain problems but we should try to focus on those solutions rather than on blame.

The most important thing to remember is how new the system is to everyone.  To say it needs testing is wrong, that implies that the technical aspects work, what it needs is using and increased user understanding.

With more dialogue it should be simple to get the AUR running smoothly and make everyone happy, then in six-months Arch newbies are going to appear here and say "WOW, the AUR is such a great idea..."

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

Everyone in this thread, with the exception of dibble, is complaining about the TU system,

I truly resent that... I was discussing this with Xentac yesterday, saying dibble was the only one on "our" side. Now you throw me out for all the points I've placed in your favour. :-P

To be honest, I couldn't care less whether more packages get from unsupported into community. I have nothing against building my own, and I expect the ones that I have to compile to be packages most people don't use. If this is not the case, I expect the package to be something a TU will pick up eventually because *they* use it.

As far as I am concerned, the AUR is still in a beta stage. I may be wrong about that; the part where people submit PKGBUILDs is working fine. The part where they get transferred to community is still in testing. So let the testing occur, and more TUs will be taken on board, eh?

Dusty

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** Arch Linux Apparel and more ** Arch Linux stickers, laptop bags, jewelery ** I wrote a book on Python 3 ** and one on mental health **

phrakture

Arch Overlord

From: behind you

Registered: 2003-10-29

Posts: 7,879

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

You do have control over the AUR.  They were supposed to be autonomous and self-governed and accountable to the community (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?p=29739#29739).  If they're not, hold their feet to the fire.  Your voice matters, even if you don't think so.

I'm appalled at the stance you have all taken against the TUs, without even bringing these issues you seem to have with them to their attention (for the most part), and in a civil manner.

Moral of the story:
Get off your asses and do something for a change.

I am doing something - I'm holding people accountable, as Xentac has stated that is within our right.  And technically, if a body is supposed to be governed by a community, it is the community's duty to speak up when something isn't working.

For the record, I maintain a few packages in my personal repo that are not for me, but for the community (madwifi, and a few others).  They were requests by community members and I packaged them.  If I had something like the AUR voting system backing me, I would have a much better time of that.

Now, the common response I've heard (over and over) is "why not become a TU?" - frankly, I never see the TUs, never hear from them, and don't even know what most of them do (some names I've never even seen before, and some no longer exist - i.e. punkrockguy).  It seems like it's not part of the community, but is its own little sect... and I don't want to be part of that.  Sure you can say "that's not how it's supposed to work", but that's how it is working.  If this needs to be changed, I suggest (as i3839 suggested) an overhaul of the TU system.

On another note - why is a forum post "[not] bringing these issues you seem to have with them to their attention"?  Is that because, like I stated, the TUs don't seem to participate in the community any more?  I would assume a public posting in the community forums would qualify as "bringing it to the attention of" a group that should be part of the community as well.

PS: I hear that the moderators are being real nazis about "hostile atmosphere" threads and such lately. Well this is such a thread against all the TUs...why haven't your highnesses done something about it?

Well, that's kind of rude.  We're (in your words) "criticising" the TURs, so you must then make a jab at those who have made the meat of this thread?

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http://phraktured.net

dtw

Forum Fellow

From: UK

Registered: 2004-08-03

Posts: 4,439

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

dibble was the only one on "our" side.

I just like to say that I am trying to avoid any side - I did start, as a result of my application, by trying to make the users position and perceptions a bit more clear to the TUs on the list.  During this dialogue I have come to understand the TUs position and perceptions a lot better and I am now also trying to bring that to the community.  Mis-communication between the two groups is the major issue here which is just daft.

The fact that my application is now wrapped up in all this is a bit depressing but "the needs of the many" and all that 

phrakture

Arch Overlord

From: behind you

Registered: 2003-10-29

Posts: 7,879

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

Mis-communication between the two groups is the major issue here which is just daft.

That's exactly my problem - not that there's miscommunication, but that there are 2 groups.... it shouldn't be that way.

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http://phraktured.net

neotuli

Lazy Developer

From: London, UK

Registered: 2004-07-06

Posts: 1,204

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

As far as I am concerned, the AUR is still in a beta stage. I may be wrong about that; the part where people submit PKGBUILDs is working fine. The part where they get transferred to community is still in testing. So let the testing occur, and more TUs will be taken on board, eh?

The beta stage not only holds true for the code, but quite appearantly for the social aspects of the AUR as well. It is also becoming clear that this is a stormy process.
It is the nature of open source projects like this to have some rough times in beta, but come out strong, I'm confident that that will be the case here as well.

---

The suggestion box only accepts patches.

i3839

Member

Registered: 2004-02-04

Posts: 1,185

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

Everyone in this thread, with the exception of dibble, is complaining about the TU system, but has not applied for a TU position themselves.

If you've read my posts well you would know I've already said that in the current system the only way to help TUs is by becomming one. I've also already said that that isn't a system which I think will work. Please prove me wrong.

Main thing which I don't like about the TU system is that the TUs want to do all the work for the packages in the cummunity repo, instead of sharing it with other users. Such system is only scalable if the number of TUs grows when the number of packages grows, thus it shouldn't be too hard to become a TU and people should be motivated to become one instead of toying with them.

Using the argument that when you want something done you should become a TU is rather weak, especially if it's near impossible to become one. I said I don't like the way the TU system works nor think that it's sufficient. How does it help to become a TU then? Change the way TUs work from the inside? Wouldn't that mean that outside information is ignored? Or become a TU and join the IMHO non-workable system? That's like saying to someone that he should eat muffins when he says that he doesn't like muffins and would prefer something else.

Again, if you read what I actually wrote you would know that I've only time for empty talk at the moment, and can't start doing stuff right now.

For me it's rather strange that for AUR related things you should be on the TU mainlinglist. What about renaming that to the AUR list instead, to clear things up?

To repeat, as it seems to be overlooked or ignored: I don't care about the TU system, it may do whatever it wants in whatever way it wants, me saying that it does things differently than I think will work well in the end shouldn't be takes as some sort of flaming, attack, or whatever nastiness. If you believe in the way you as TU work then prove that it works, and you've plenty of time too to do it. All I said was that when after some time (e.g. a month) the situation isn't good enough in my eyes then I may do something differently than the TU system to try solving it. But even then the TU system is a nice addition, as they provide quality packages.

I've honestly no idea where all the negative feelings are comming from so suddenly. Perhaps I stepped on some invisible TU's toes? ;-)

phrakture

Arch Overlord

From: behind you

Registered: 2003-10-29

Posts: 7,879

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

That's like saying to someone that he should eat muffins when he says that he doesn't like muffins and would prefer something else.
...
I've honestly no idea where all the negative feelings are comming from so suddenly. Perhaps I stepped on some invisible TU's toes? ;-)

or told them to eat muffins?

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http://phraktured.net

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: TUs, AUR, and voting

Seeing as most of the participants of this thread are moderators, I don't know how long this thread will remain locked. However, I am locking it and advising all interested parties to move this flamewar to the tur-users mailing list.

Dusty

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** Arch Linux Apparel and more ** Arch Linux stickers, laptop bags, jewelery ** I wrote a book on Python 3 ** and one on mental health **