Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

HalosGhost · 2013-07-03 20:27:51

Greduan wrote:

If I didn't have the default config file as reference I would assume those should all have a const before the variable type. In fact I did assume that, since all of the first variables have it, until I noticed the difference. I went back and fixed stuff to how it should be after I noticed this.
So perhaps adding a little something to the documentation to point out this stuff might be useful. Of course this is only valuable if you're writing each value to a file manually, instead of copy&paste and modifying the values to your liking.

I wouldn't necessarily mind making this modification, but I wouldn't recommend starting a config file from scratch instead of just modifying the default config; I can't think of any real reason to do that.

All the best,

-HG

2ManyDogs · 2013-07-03 20:41:00

^ I think this would make the man page unnecessarily complex. I also can't think of why anyone would need this information in the man page; the default config file is always available, and as you mention writing a config file from scratch is not really a good idea.

Last edited by 2ManyDogs (2013-07-03 20:41:21)

Trilby · 2013-07-03 20:55:15

One one may do as they chose, but as the author, I will say that writing a config file from scratch is completely unsupported.

While I try to keep changes to the config.h to a minimal (try), it will change occasionally. And failure to merge in the relevant changes will likely cause alopex to fail in compiling or crash upon starting.

When writing an rc file, it is wise to start from scratch and not just copy someone else's config. But this is quite different. This is a header file - there are no "defaults" that are used if this file is missing or empty; this file contains the defaults. You cannot compile alopex without this file.

Last edited by Trilby (2013-07-03 20:55:30)

Greduan · 2013-07-03 23:10:45

I am aware that if this file doesn't contain something it will just mess up. It won't have the data to handle. I still like to write my stuff from zero though, gives me a feel for the config (if you know what I'm talking about). It's a habit from making really complicated configs in other stuff. Don't worry I always double and triple check my stuff in cases like these. I always tinker with it even though it's already perfectly how I want it. Again just another suggestion.

Here's another suggestion though, perhaps clean up the default config file a bit? Just for people that have some OCD like me. One of the reasons I'm manually writing the config file. I like my files like this, and I gotta work off of this (still not finished, mind you). I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

Oh if I'm being annoying just say so, please, cause I'm usually very pushy.

Last edited by Greduan (2013-07-03 23:55:56)

2ManyDogs · 2013-07-03 23:51:07

Greduan wrote:

Here's another suggestion though, perhaps clean up the default config file a bit? Just for people that have some OCD like me.

While I am sensitive to the needs of people with OCD (I have a significant amount of it myself) I have to say that I think Trilby's default config is one of the "cleanest" and well-commented header files I have seen. You are welcome to adjust it to suit your needs, but asking that the author conform to what you think is "clean" seems to be a bit much, in my opinion. Other people might not like how much space and commenting you seem to need -- and it is easy for you to make the changes yourself.

Greduan · 2013-07-04 00:01:55

2ManyDogs wrote:

Greduan wrote:
Here's another suggestion though, perhaps clean up the default config file a bit? Just for people that have some OCD like me.
While I am sensitive to the needs of people with OCD (I have a significant amount of it myself) I have to say that I think Trilby's default config is one of the "cleanest" and well-commented header files I have seen. You are welcome to adjust it to suit your needs, but asking that the author conform to what you think is "clean" seems to be a bit much, in my opinion. Other people might not like how much space and commenting you seem to need -- and it is easy for you to make the changes yourself.

Oh I'm not saying it isn't clean, in fact I agree with you. It just feels a little all over the place, especially with the tabs.

I'm gonna stop with the big requests here and actually ask software questions when I have them.

HalosGhost · 2013-07-04 00:03:42

Greduan wrote:

I like my files like this this

Really? That's one odd case of OCD you have. There's so much wasted space. I think it might be time for you to take a break from making suggestions. It seems like you're pretty green, and the design decisions made by Trilby were made for very particular reasons; the style of the configs not excluded.

All the best,

-HG

Trilby · 2013-07-04 00:06:18

If you want to start from scrath - why use alopex at all? The config.h is part of the code. So if you want a blank template to start from in configuring a window manager, just open any text editor and have a compiler handy.

I do recognize that the tab spacing in the config may be non-standard. I use ts=4 in vim, and with any other setting the config can look pretty ugly. I've been rightly harassed about this before. But feel freel to `sed 's/\t/ /g'` it.

2ManyDogs · 2013-07-04 00:11:22

Greduan wrote:

Oh if I'm being annoying just say so, please, cause I'm usually very pushy.

I just saw you added this edit. OK, I'll say it, you're being annoying.

Asking for the code to be "cleaned up" to suit your OCD standards reminds me a little of someone inviting you to a party, and you calling up before you arrive and asking them to re-arrange their music collection in alphabetical order before you get there, because you don't like how they have it arranged by artist.

Last edited by 2ManyDogs (2013-07-04 00:13:19)

Greduan · 2013-07-04 00:24:37

HalosGhost wrote:

Greduan wrote:
I like my files like this this
Really? That's one odd case of OCD you have. There's so much wasted space. I think it might be time for you to take a break from making suggestions. It seems like you're pretty green, and the design decisions made by Trilby were made for very particular reasons; the style of the configs not excluded.
All the best,
-HG

I am pretty green. In software development especially.

Trilby wrote:

If you want to start from scrath - why use alopex at all? The config.h is part of the code. So if you want a blank template to start from in configuring a window manager, just open any text editor and have a compiler handy.
I do recognize that the tab spacing in the config may be non-standard. I use ts=4 in vim, and with any other setting the config can look pretty ugly. I've been rightly harassed about this before. But feel freel to `sed 's/\t/ /g'` it.

If you have been bothered about that before then I'm not gonna make it hard for you in that department. I'll just convert it to spaces.

2ManyDogs wrote:

Greduan wrote:
Oh if I'm being annoying just say so, please, cause I'm usually very pushy.
I just saw you added this edit. OK, I'll say it, you're being annoying.
Asking for the code to be cleaned up to suit your OCD standards reminds me a little of someone inviting you to a party, and you calling up before you arrive and asking them to re-arrange their music collection in alphabetical order before you go over, because you don't like how they have it arranged by artist.

I can totally see that. And yeah, I would be bothered if that were the case.

-----

First, I'm sorry for being an annoying newbie.

Second, next time I post here will ebe to answer a post from you guys aimed at me or to actually make a real suggestion that might be valid for something like Apolex. Or to ask a question of how something might be achieved using Apolex (after checking all the documentation ).

Greduan · 2013-07-04 02:16:21

OK so here's the first problem I actually have with Apolex. The personal config file:

$HOME/.alopex_conf.h
$HOME/.alopex_config.h
$XDG_CONFIG_HOME/alopex/config.h

I've tried the above variations of the file, I've even tried using symlinks or not, it does not affect the outcome.

This is packer's output when I do `packer -S alopex-git`:

eduan@arch:~ $ sudo packer -S alopex-git
[sudo] password for eduan:
warning: alopex-git-2.283.59a476c-1 is up to date -- reinstalling

Aur Targets    (1): alopex-git

Proceed with installation? [Y/n] y

Edit alopex-git PKGBUILD with $EDITOR? [Y/n] n
==> Making package: alopex-git 2.283.59a476c-1 (Wed Jul  3 21:12:44 CDT 2013)
==> Checking runtime dependencies...
==> Checking buildtime dependencies...
==> Retrieving sources...
  -> Updating alopex git repo...
Fetching origin
==> Validating source files with sha256sums...
    alopex ... Skipped
==> Extracting sources...
  -> Creating working copy of alopex git repo...
Cloning into 'alopex'...
done.
Checking connectivity... done
==> Starting pkgver()...
==> Starting prepare()...
==> Removing existing pkg/ directory...
==> Starting build()...
==> Starting package()...
==> Tidying install...
  -> Purging unwanted files...
  -> Compressing man and info pages...
  -> Stripping unneeded symbols from binaries and libraries...
==> Creating package "alopex-git"...
  -> Generating .PKGINFO file...
  -> Generating .MTREE file...
  -> Compressing package...
==> Finished making: alopex-git 2.283.59a476c-1 (Wed Jul  3 21:12:45 CDT 2013)
loading packages...
warning: alopex-git-2.283.59a476c-1 is up to date -- reinstalling
resolving dependencies...
looking for inter-conflicts...

Packages (1): alopex-git-2.283.59a476c-1

Total Installed Size:   0.04 MiB
Net Upgrade Size:       0.00 MiB

:: Proceed with installation? [Y/n]
(1/1) checking keys in keyring                                          [########################################] 100
(1/1) checking package integrity                                        [########################################] 100
(1/1) loading package files                                             [########################################] 100
(1/1) checking for file conflicts                                       [########################################] 100
(1/1) checking available disk space                                     [########################################] 100
(1/1) reinstalling alopex-git                                           [########################################] 100

So as you can see it does do PKGBUILD but it just simply doesn't work... Again I've tried with the above variations of the file, symlink and no symlink, I've also tried uninstalling Alopex entirely (using `pacman -Rs alopex-git`) and then re-installing, with all of the above file variations.

And it does not work. Any insight on this? I did not modify the PKGBUILD file in case you're wondering.

I bet you I am missing something obvious. I just know I'm doing something obviously wrong...

Last edited by Greduan (2013-07-04 02:22:18)

Trilby · 2013-07-04 02:23:10

I don't know what symlinks would be for, what are you linking to?

What do you mean by "does not work"?

Greduan · 2013-07-04 02:25:32

Trilby wrote:

I don't know what symlinks would be for, what are you linking to?
What do you mean by "does not work"?

I am linking to:

/home/eduan/dotfiles/linux/apolex/config.h

Which does exist, I've confirmed it does.

And by does not work I mean it just doesn't use it. It uses the default config.

Trilby · 2013-07-04 02:29:56

does packer retain the source files from the previous build? If it does the prepare function may not be called to pull in user configs.

Start from a fresh directory with just the PKGBUILD and use makepkg.

Greduan · 2013-07-04 12:59:40

Sorry for reporting so many hours later, had to go sleep as soon as I figured it out.

OK so I found the problem, the problem wasn't in the script or packer, it was in the fact I was using sudo.

Just as for pacman, packer also uses sudo when installing stuff. So when you use sudo you switch to the root user, and the script uses $HOME, and the root user's home is /root so it wasn't working right.

I had to do packer without sudo and give it the password when it needs it.

So to recap, if using packer, don't use sudo when installing it. Might want to add a note somewhere cause I spent an hour trying all of the stuff I could until this popped into my head.

Trilby · 2013-07-04 13:02:34

That note already exists in many places - this is not unique to alopex: you should not run makepkg (or thus any aur helper) as root.

Greduan · 2013-07-04 13:09:05

I wasn't aware of this though it makes sense. Didn't find an official notice anywhere but Google pointed me out the the experts in these forums.

Lesseon learned, thanks for everything. Everything works perfectly, had to fix a couple of things in my config (my mistake) and it works perfectly.

HalosGhost · 2013-07-04 13:34:19

Alright, this is getting a bit OT, so this conversation should probably stop here. But, it is important to note, this is one of the primary reasons that the community discourages new users from using AUR helpers before becoming comfortable with makepkg itself. If you were to try and run makepkg without a wrapper using root, you would see this friendly error pop up:

==> ERROR: Running makepkg as root is a BAD idea and can cause permanent, catastrophic damage to your system. If you wish to run as root, please use the --asroot option.

Learn to use the tool itself before you use something that does it for you.

Now then, back on-topic. Trilby, I know I asked before (a long while ago), but I was wondering if you'd given any more thought to xft support. At this point, there's very little else I can think of to be added to Alopex that I would use.

All the best,

-HG

Trilby · 2013-07-04 14:22:12

I've been reluctant to add xft support as it is a good amount of code changes and 'bloat' that I wouldn't use. However, it may be worth doing a separate fork of alopex for that.

I might give it the code name Vulpes vulpes: the largest of genus Vulpes, and rated as of 'least concern' by the IUCN

I have, for other reasons, been considering a cairo-based fork of alopex. This would open up many cool possibilities, such as rotated side status bars, antialiased drawing of tabs, and real image icons that could be scaled to fit the status bar. This would then also allow for xft fonts. So this may be the way to go for a next project.

Libxft is problematic for other reasons too. While I've often defended X from critics as I think X/Xlib is very good at doing what it was designed to do, there are valid complaints about it's performance where it has been twisted into doing something it was not designed for. Compositing in X is just odd - check out the code for any composit manager - it'll make you sick how it really works. Xft - as I understand it - depends on the Xrender extension. Xrender, too, has faced criticism, and perhaps rightly so.

Cairo, in contrast, not only was designed from the start for these purposes, but it is also more portable. While I have my doubts about Wayland (and more so about the existence of tiling WM's in wayland), if Wayland - or something else like it - ever replaces X, xrender and xft will be gone as well. But cairo, I imagine, would transition nicely onto the new backend.

So, long story short, xft will not be coming to alopex propper, but I see a cairo fork (vulpes) as a good next step.

I know you've named your status tool vulpes ... too bad Perhaps that should be velox: a swift fox. I'd like to reserve "microtis" for if I ever get around to making a webkit based browser (microtis = kit fox).

HalosGhost · 2013-07-04 14:26:09

Trilby wrote:

So, long story short, xft will not be coming to alopex propper, but I see a cairo fork (vulpes) as a good next step.

That sounds awesome.

I know you've named your status tool vulpes ... too bad Perhaps that should be velox: a swift fox. I'd like to reserve "microtis" for if I ever get around to making a webkit based browser (microtis = kit fox).

sadface. Well, if you ever get around to it, I'll rename the tool to something else

All the best,

-HG

Greduan · 2013-07-05 15:57:49

I'm back, hope no hard feelings are lying around.

I've come here to ask about system trays. Now I know you posted about this 5 months ago or so.

@HalosGhost
Ah, sorry, you're referring to a system tray. TTWM does not include a built in system tray and I don't imagine that I'd ever add one. If I did, it would be a separate tool. I would, however, be happy to do some tweaking to ensure that ttwm cooperates nicely with any system tray application.

So the question is any update on that? Not about adding the tray, but making cooperate with other system tray applications.

I imagine that by that you mean that it'll check for the app and if it exists it'll add it to the statusbar (or we can add it to the statusbar) or something along those lines, correct?

If there's still no plans for this in the future, I'm sure I can still figure it out with some kind of workaround, but just wondering.

BTW, I've tried a couple other WMs in the past couple of days, Alopex is still the best.

HalosGhost · 2013-07-05 16:06:58

Greduan wrote:

So the question is any update on that? Not about adding the tray, but making cooperate with other system tray applications.
I imagine that by that you mean that it'll check for the app and if it exists it'll add it to the statusbar (or we can add it to the statusbar) or something along those lines, correct?

My understanding is that if you make sure that your statusbar script/program leaves enough space somewhere, then you could have a standalone system tray manager (e.g., stalonetray) setup in the blank space.

All the best,

-HG

Last edited by HalosGhost (2013-07-05 16:10:12)

Greduan · 2013-07-05 16:08:25

HalosGhost wrote:

Greduan wrote:
So the question is any update on that? Not about adding the tray, but making cooperate with other system tray applications.
I imagine that by that you mean that it'll check for the app and if it exists it'll add it to the statusbar (or we can add it to the statusbar) or something along those lines, correct?
My understanding is that if you make sure that your statusbar script/program leaves enough space at the end for your, then you could have another standalone system tray manager (e.g., stalonetray) setup in the blank space.
All the best,
-HG

Yeah that was my planned workaround, although I'm currently having some trouble with the statusbar script, but that will work if this isn't in the plans.

Trilby · 2013-07-05 16:28:48

The status input can leave space on the right, the tagspace option in the config is for leaving space on the left of the tabs.

Greduan · 2013-07-05 17:28:42

Trilby wrote:

The status input can leave space on the right, the tagspace option in the config is for leaving space on the left of the tabs.

Indeed, thank you.

Now I've been a couple hours of just testing stuff and I'm having trouble solving this.

I have the following variations in my .xinitrc file:

exec alopex "/home/eduan/.config/alopex/statusbar.sh" # the folder alopex is a symlink
exec alopex "/home/eduan/dotfiles/linux/alopex/statusbar.sh" # real location, confirmed it exists

And I have tried the following in my statusbar.sh file:

#!/usr/bin/sh
while true; do
    date +'%F %r'
    sleep 1
done

Which works great if I try it in the command line, every second it returns the current date and time. But if I start Alopex with this script as an argument (like above) the statusbar simply returns nothing.

I've checked all the documentation about that statusbar (man page for alopex and the wiki archive for Alopex) and this is the nearest I've been able to get to it.

What have I tried? A lot of stuff, variations to the location of the script (as an argument), a lot of different things in the script itself, for example I tried `echo -n "Hello World"`, inside and outside the while loop, which did not output anything to the statusbar.

So what am I doing wrong? Again this is all I could gather from the documentation. And I couldn't find any real guideline statusbar file to just modify for my needs.

Thanks again! BTW when I say it doesn't output anything, I mean just that, I can only see the tags and the tabs of the applications, I can't see no clock or text.

Arch Linux

#526 2013-07-03 20:27:51

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#527 2013-07-03 20:41:00

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#528 2013-07-03 20:55:15

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#529 2013-07-03 23:10:45

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#530 2013-07-03 23:51:07

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#531 2013-07-04 00:01:55

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#532 2013-07-04 00:03:42

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#533 2013-07-04 00:06:18

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#534 2013-07-04 00:11:22

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#535 2013-07-04 00:24:37

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#536 2013-07-04 02:16:21

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#537 2013-07-04 02:23:10

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#538 2013-07-04 02:25:32

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#539 2013-07-04 02:29:56

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#540 2013-07-04 12:59:40

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#541 2013-07-04 13:02:34

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#542 2013-07-04 13:09:05

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#543 2013-07-04 13:34:19

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#544 2013-07-04 14:22:12

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#545 2013-07-04 14:26:09

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#546 2013-07-05 15:57:49

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#547 2013-07-05 16:06:58

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#548 2013-07-05 16:08:25

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#549 2013-07-05 16:28:48

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

#550 2013-07-05 17:28:42

Re: Alopex: a tiling tagging tabbed window manager with fur

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