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#26 2013-06-19 15:42:03

srs5694
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From: Woonsocket, RI
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 719
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Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

At this point, my guess is that you may be running into a kernel EFI stub bug. There's one such bug under discussion here:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=156670

I suspect yours may be different, though. There was a bug fix about a month ago that might help in some cases, but I don't know if your specific kernel includes it. If you're comfortable compiling your own kernel, reverting to the 3.6.x kernel's EFI stub loader code may fix the problem -- or switching to an old kernel entirely might work around the problem. If none of these workarounds is practical for you, I suggest switching to (or adding) ELILO, GRUB Legacy, or GRUB 2, since the bug seems to be in or associated with the EFI stub loader.

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#27 2013-06-19 21:57:09

Kudu
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Registered: 2013-06-15
Posts: 20

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Thanks once again for your continuous help. I think I'll try using a different bootloader. Which should I try, and should I keep or remove rEFInd?

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#28 2013-06-19 22:13:54

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,662

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

It is really up to you. Grub Legacy is maybe not the most straightforward option on Arch. It is no longer in the main repos and the default is not patched to support EFI booting. Grub 2 works fine here (and I am hit by the bug you are hit by) and will boot almost anything including your pet gerbil if you ask it to, I believe. People tend not to like it but personally I've found it to be very reliable and very little trouble although it is not very exciting. (But it is a boot loader for goodness sake - boring and reliable are not bad characteristics, I think.)

You can either remove rEFInd or keep it. I actually use rEFInd as boot manager and grub2 as boot loader. That is, I have rEFInd run grub. This is mainly because I live in hope that one day the bug with the EFI stub loader will be overcome and I will once more be able to boot Arch directly from rEFInd. So grub is the default in rEFInd's config but every time there's a new kernel, I can just switch to that option and confirm that I'm still bitten by the bug. If you don't care about switching back to rEFInd+EFI stub, you could ditch rEFInd and just use grub.

I cannot comment on ELILO.


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#29 2013-06-20 01:17:36

WonderWoofy
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From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Elilo is fantastico!  Of course it does have one flaw in that there is no real interface to it, and creating one, I have not been able to figure out as of yet.  Instead you get "boot:" and you can give it a number to boot, or you can hit tab (I think) to get a list of all available options.  But the configuration is dead simple and it seems to work quite well.  If you were planning on having the kernels reside on /boot and the ESP on /boot/efi, then elilo is probably not the greatest choice though, as it can only read FAT filesystems I think.  This means that the kernels and initramfs have to reside on the ESP itself for elilo to work.

I think the reason why grub2 is so reliable for cfr is that he edits the configs by hand, and tries to keep it fairly simple. If I remember correctly, he does not have a whole crap load of systems for grub2 to boot, so there is only the requirement to manage a couple of entries (regular initramfs and the fallback).  I think what really makes grub2 not ideal for me personally is the idea that my config might be autogenerated for me.  I just have a hard time trusting that, though I am sure that it is probably recommended that you inspect what you generate.

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#30 2013-06-20 01:34:07

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,662

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Would ELILO be a good choice on a Mac if it can only read FAT filesystems? I'm not sure how intel-based Macs boot as I've never had one, mind. ELILO sounds a bit like yaboot although it does give you a sort of menu and then another if you pick 'l' at the first one for linux which you can tab at to get a list of options. [yaboot boots ppc-based Macs. Not sure what else.]

I actually have quite a lot of entries in my grub menu but they are mostly variations on a theme e.g. a bunch of different ways of booting the same kernel with different options and an .iso file or so. But I do edit it by hand. I autogenerate it on Fedora but I don't allow that on Arch smile.

EDIT: The trouble with inspecting what gets autogenerated for grub is that it is extremely opaque. The advantage of hand editing is that it is much more likely to make sense. That's why I don't think it makes sense to start from an autogenerated config and then edit by hand. If you want to manage it manually, it is easier to start from the example config which grub installs.

Last edited by cfr (2013-06-20 01:38:37)


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#31 2013-06-20 02:04:47

WonderWoofy
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From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

The Intel based Macs may be far from true UEFI, but I am fairly certain that they are still compatible with having a FAT ESP.  Though from my experience with UEFI booting my MacBook, I always experienced quite a delay if I chose to boot from the ESP rather than the OSX partition.  There is also a delay when using bios compatibility, but it can at least be greatly reduced by properly "blessing" that installation. The ESP on the other hand would have a delay no matter how many times I blessed the damn thing.

I found this the other day.  It is a couple years old, but since it comes from the great Matthew Garrett, I tend to trust that it is probably the best way to go about things.  I would imagine too, that because it is booting from an HFS+ formatted partition, it is probably not going to experience the same kind of delay as mentioned above.

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#32 2013-06-20 03:03:03

Kudu
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Registered: 2013-06-15
Posts: 20

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Thanks. I think I'll try the rEFInd+GRUB2 method. However, while I was able to find a lot of info in the wiki related to installing GRUB to the ESP, I'm not sure how to install its EFI variation for my setup, since I have rEFInd installed on my Mac OS partition.

Last edited by Kudu (2013-06-20 03:03:24)

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#33 2013-06-20 03:43:51

WonderWoofy
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From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

I rather think that if you are booting rEFInd from the OSX partition, that it is that partition that you are to treat as though it is the ESP.  But I am not 100% sure of this.  Maybe srs5694 can weigh in again.   

@Kudu, in case you haven't noticed, srs5694 is the resident expert on all things UEFI.  So it is best to give his advice the greatest consideration.

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#34 2013-06-20 05:12:31

the.ridikulus.rat
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From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 2011-10-04
Posts: 765

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Have you guys tried https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/syslinux-efi-git/ ?

Last edited by the.ridikulus.rat (2013-06-20 05:27:42)

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#35 2013-06-20 05:26:19

WonderWoofy
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From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

the.ridikulus.rat wrote:

I haven't tried this in quite some time (since the last time we talked about it).  It borked on me for a while, so I gave up.  I'm glad to hear that it is working now.  Building as we speak.

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#36 2013-06-20 16:51:10

srs5694
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From: Woonsocket, RI
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 719
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Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

I've written quite a bit about various EFI boot loaders on my Web page on that topic. In brief:

  • Until the 3.7.x kernel series, the EFI stub loader had been the most reliable one, but as the discussions on this forum reveal, there's something weird going on with it lately.

  • ELILO is my second choice; although it's less complex and more limited in what it can do than either GRUB, it's been consistently reliable on most of my test computers (my 32-bit Mac Mini being a notable exception).

  • Fedora's patched GRUB Legacy is very close to ELILO; it's a bit flakier, but it works on my 32-bit Mac Mini, and it's more flexible in what it can do (it can load kernels from most Linux filesystems, for instance).

  • GRUB 2 is my least favorite because it's the largest and most complex boot loader available, and this size and complexity leads to a large number of bugs. Many of these bugs are in the tools that create configuration files; the resulting files are often just plain wrong and are difficult to correct by hand. People keep saying that these bugs have been fixed, but then new ones keep cropping up.

I've never tried the SYSLINUX EFI loader to which the.ridikulus.rat refers. As I recall, I did try to compile it once, but it wouldn't compile. That was a few months ago, though.

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#37 2013-06-20 17:48:03

the.ridikulus.rat
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From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 2011-10-04
Posts: 765

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

srs5694 wrote:

Until the 3.7.x kernel series, the EFI stub loader had been the most reliable one, but as the discussions on this forum reveal, there's something weird going on with it lately.

Seems like the 1:1 memory-map patches for the kernel ( http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.efi/1307 ) might fix this.

ELILO is my second choice; although it's less complex and more limited in what it can do than either GRUB, it's been consistently reliable on most of my test computers (my 32-bit Mac Mini being a notable exception).

ELILO is good expect it does not give a menu interface, just drops to "boot:" prompt (atleast in my case). I maintain https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/elilo-efi/ .

Fedora's patched GRUB Legacy is very close to ELILO; it's a bit flakier, but it works on my 32-bit Mac Mini, and it's more flexible in what it can do (it can load kernels from most Linux filesystems, for instance).

Fedora's GRUB Legacy is no longer developed and the pkg has been discontinued in recent version of Fedora (confirmed by Peter Jones - http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/grub … b9befe1755 ).

GRUB 2 is my least favorite because it's the largest and most complex boot loader available, and this size and complexity leads to a large number of bugs. Many of these bugs are in the tools that create configuration files; the resulting files are often just plain wrong and are difficult to correct by hand. People keep saying that these bugs have been fixed, but then new ones keep cropping up.

GRUB 2.00 has been very reliable so far for me. It is reliable if the user is ready to maintain grub.cfg manually.

I've never tried the SYSLINUX EFI loader to which the.ridikulus.rat refers. As I recall, I did try to compile it once, but it wouldn't compile. That was a few months ago, though.

It is booting properly now and most of the quirks have been ironed out. It does not use efistub yet but uses its own way of booting the kernel (like grub2). But that might change soon since the author of EFISTUB and Syslinux is same (Matt Fleming).

Last edited by the.ridikulus.rat (2013-06-20 17:48:57)

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#38 2013-06-20 19:10:14

the.ridikulus.rat
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From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 2011-10-04
Posts: 765

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Co-incidentally Syslinux v6.00 has been released and I have updated syslinux-efi-git in AUR for it. Please test it.

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#39 2013-06-20 23:00:22

WonderWoofy
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From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Okay, I compiled and tested syslinux-efi-git 6.00 and I've got nothing.  It doesn't load at all, just a black screen.  I copied all the files in /usr/lib/syslinux/efi64 to /boot/EFI/syslinux and copied the example syslinux.cfg there as well.  Then I created an efibootmgr entry.  I think I did everything right, no?  I also tried to start syslinux from the UEFI shell to ensure that it wasn't my efibootmgr entry that was whack, but still no joy.

As a side note, I do in fact use syslinux as my backup bootloader for legacy bios.  So I have a /boot/syslinux (which also resides on my ESP since I mount it at /boot).  Therefore I have a \syslinux as well as a \EFI\syslinux.  Could this be causing problems?

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#40 2013-06-21 01:40:40

srs5694
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From: Woonsocket, RI
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 719
Website

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

the.ridikulus.rat wrote:

ELILO is good expect it does not give a menu interface, just drops to "boot:" prompt (atleast in my case). I maintain https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/elilo-efi/ .

It is possible to get a menu out of it, but it's a bit of a pain to set up. The documentation describes how to do it, but I've never dug in very deeply with that. Personally, I'm much more concerned with the reliability of the boot loader than with its user interface. Since I used LILO on BIOS-based computers for many years, ELILO's "boot:" prompt doesn't bother me.

Fedora's GRUB Legacy is no longer developed and the pkg has been discontinued in recent version of Fedora (confirmed by Peter Jones - http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/grub … b9befe1755 ).

True -- but GRUB Legacy has the advantage of working reliably. Given the unreliability of so many other options and the limited features of ELILO, IMHO GRUB Legacy still fills a gap. Since it runs on EFI and doesn't rely on Linux libraries that might change on a moment's notice, the fact that it's not being maintained is not as critical as it would be for most programs, provided it works on your system. (Using "your" generically.)

GRUB 2.00 has been very reliable so far for me. It is reliable if the user is ready to maintain grub.cfg manually.

Our experiences differ. GRUB 2 has been reliable for me under VirtualBox and under DUET, but on at least some computers, it tends to be unreliable. Sometimes it will work well for a few boots and then start failing randomly; or it might not work at all. I participate on other distributions' forums, and I see a lot of problems there relating to GRUB -- Ubuntu and Mint users often complain about getting "grub>" prompts, and Fedora users have problems getting GRUB to boot Windows, in particular. Those problems may be at least partially caused by the scripts that try to build overly-complex configuration files rather than hand-crafted grub.cfg files, but those are still problems for GRUB, since that's the way it's intended to be used.

FWIW, Ubuntu, Mint, and OpenSUSE all set GRUB 2 up with its grub.cfg file in the Linux /boot/grub or /boot/grub2 directory, thus putting the GRUB configuration file on a separate partition from the ESP and the GRUB binary. This is a Bad Idea, and I suspect it's the cause of some of the Ubuntu and Mint problems I've seen. I don't know offhand how Arch's GRUB 2 is configured in this respect. Fedora does it better, putting grub.cfg on the ESP in the same directory as the GRUB binary.

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#41 2013-06-21 02:28:07

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,662

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Arch's standard setup puts grub.cfg at /boot/grub/grub.cfg.

I have to say that grub has been extremely reliable for me and is, indeed, the only reason I can currently boot at all. On the other hand, I do not use an autogenerated config file but a hand-edited one. The advantage of Arch is that this doesn't take much maintenance because an updated kernel doesn't have a new name. On Fedora, I need to remember to generate a new grub.cfg. (I autogenerate it on Fedora but I'm booting in bios mode there.) This is despite the fact that it is not on the ESP.

When I first set grub up on Arch, it used the ESP but then the recommendation changed and I switched to having the config on /boot. Can't say I've had problems. I'm sure next time I boot I will regret saying this but I think grub gets somewhat unfairly maligned. After all, what was very reliable - rEFInd + EFI stub - has proved recently to reliably fail in my case, whereas grub has always reliably booted. I guess I think that is worth something, at least. Of course, I realise that other people may have different experiences with different configs on different hardware. But my firmware is fussy and picky and a pain, so the fact that it seems up til now, at least, to get on OK with grub is something of a godsend.

Last edited by cfr (2013-06-21 02:30:33)


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#42 2013-06-21 03:20:22

WonderWoofy
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From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Arch gives you the option of how yu want to install grub2-efi.  I guess htat is like most things.  You can put it wherever and specify in the grub-install command where you want it to go.  So even if you mount on /boot/efi, you could still just put it in /boot/efi/grub if you please.  There is no "default" in this regard, other than if you give it no options and then I think it will go to /boot/grub.  But I think that is more of an upstream decision rather than an Arch thing.

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#43 2013-06-21 12:11:47

the.ridikulus.rat
Member
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 2011-10-04
Posts: 765

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

WonderWoofy wrote:

Okay, I compiled and tested syslinux-efi-git 6.00 and I've got nothing.  It doesn't load at all, just a black screen.  I copied all the files in /usr/lib/syslinux/efi64 to /boot/EFI/syslinux and copied the example syslinux.cfg there as well.  Then I created an efibootmgr entry.  I think I did everything right, no?  I also tried to start syslinux from the UEFI shell to ensure that it wasn't my efibootmgr entry that was whack, but still no joy.

As a side note, I do in fact use syslinux as my backup bootloader for legacy bios.  So I have a /boot/syslinux (which also resides on my ESP since I mount it at /boot).  Therefore I have a \syslinux as well as a \EFI\syslinux.  Could this be causing problems?

I also had issues with syslinux-efi-git 6.00, i had reported and now the issues have been fixed in git. Try the updated syslinux-efi-git pkg. Make sure you have "UI vesamenu.c32" defined in your syslinux cfg for the menu to show properly. Your steps for installing syslinux is correct, no issues there.

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#44 2013-06-21 15:21:29

WonderWoofy
Member
From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

the.ridikulus.rat wrote:

I also had issues with syslinux-efi-git 6.00, i had reported and now the issues have been fixed in git. Try the updated syslinux-efi-git pkg. Make sure you have "UI vesamenu.c32" defined in your syslinux cfg for the menu to show properly. Your steps for installing syslinux is correct, no issues there.

Awesome, thanks!  I built it thinking "Horray, the.ridikulus.rat has a working syslinux-efi package!"  Then I tried it, and thought, "Oh no, I suck at life... What have I done to anger the UEFI gods?!"  So it is nice to know it wasn't my own incompetence that was at work there.

Buiding as I type this.

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#45 2013-06-21 19:45:13

Kudu
Member
Registered: 2013-06-15
Posts: 20

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Thanks for all the help. I created a folder named /EFI/ELILO on my Mac OS system partition with the following files in it:

elilo-3.16-x86_64.efi
elilo.conf
initramfs-linux.img
initramfs-linux-fallback.img
vmlinuz-linux

However, when booting into rEFInd and choosing ELILO, I get the following output:

ELILO boot: ..
arch
Loading kernel vmlinuz-linux... done
Loading file initramfs-linux.img...done
Skip GOP init, force text-mode.
_

and then it freezes. I configured it to use text mode after getting a GOP error when I first booted without it. Here is my elilo.conf:

prompt
timeout=50
default=arch
#chooser=textmenu
#message=textmenu-message.msg

image=vmlinuz-linux
        text-mode
        label=arch
        initrd=initramfs-linux.img
        read-only
        root=/dev/mapper/lvmpool-slash
        append="cryptdevice=/dev/disk/by-partuuid/7678874f-238e-4b4d-a4dd-3e08e3178f29:crypt rootfstype=ext4 ro"

image=vmlinuz-linux
        text-mode
        label=arch-fallback
        initrd=initramfs-linux-fallback.img
        read-only
        root=/dev/mapper/lvmpool-slash
        append="cryptdevice=/dev/disk/by-partuuid/7678874f-238e-4b4d-a4dd-3e08e3178f29:crypt rootfstype=ext4 ro"

image=vmlinuz-linux
        text-mode
        label=arch-terminal
        initrd=initramfs-linux.img
        read-only
        root=/dev/mapper/lvmpool-slash
        append="cryptdevice=/dev/disk/by-partuuid/7678874f-238e-4b4d-a4dd-3e08e3178f29:crypt rootfstype=ext4 ro systemd.unit=multi-user.target"

Last edited by Kudu (2013-06-21 19:45:50)

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#46 2013-06-21 20:53:35

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,662

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

WonderWoofy wrote:

Arch gives you the option of how yu want to install grub2-efi.  I guess htat is like most things.  You can put it wherever and specify in the grub-install command where you want it to go.  So even if you mount on /boot/efi, you could still just put it in /boot/efi/grub if you please.  There is no "default" in this regard, other than if you give it no options and then I think it will go to /boot/grub.  But I think that is more of an upstream decision rather than an Arch thing.

Yes. I didn't mean it is Arch specific and I believe that the default/recommendation is just following upstream, as you say. By "default" I really meant wiki recommendation or what you get if you use the Beginner's Guide, for example. Obviously you can specify a different location.

Last edited by cfr (2013-06-21 20:54:01)


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#47 2013-06-22 01:32:38

srs5694
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From: Woonsocket, RI
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 719
Website

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Ouch. You're 0 for 2 on boot loaders. That's unusually bad. At this point I can only suggest you try a third.

No, that's not quite true. There's still the option of going for a BIOS-mode boot, but that involves jumping through more hoops and setting up a flaky hybrid MBR, so I'd hold off on that unless and until both versions of GRUB fail.

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#48 2013-06-22 01:50:10

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,662

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Since you are using encryption, have you checked you have the correct hooks and modules in the initramfs? Are you using LUKS or LUKS on LVM or LVM on LUKS or...? (Command line does not look right for LVM on LUKS.)


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#49 2013-06-22 15:17:24

Kudu
Member
Registered: 2013-06-15
Posts: 20

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

cfr, I'm using a LUKS partition as a LVM physical device. What is wrong with my command line?

Here are the relevant parts of my mkinitcpio.conf:

MODULES="dm_mod ext4"
[...]
HOOKS="base udev autodetect modconf block keyboard encrypt lvm2 filesystems fsck shutdown"
[...]

I get these errors when running 'mkinitcpio -p linux' though:

[...]
==> WARNING: Possibly missing firmware for module: bfa
==> WARNING: Possibly missing firmware for module: aic94xx
[...]

Last edited by Kudu (2013-06-22 15:46:33)

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#50 2013-06-22 21:11:17

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,662

Re: Can't boot installer using rEFInd

Those errors are normal. Unless you need those modules, you are fine on that score.

Maybe your command line is fine. I checked the wiki and my command line doesn't seem to match what the wiki specifies. However, I'm not clear what crypt is. The wiki suggests:

root=/dev/mapper/<volume-group>-<logical-volume> cryptdevice=/dev/<luks-part>:<volume-group>

But if lvmpool is your volume group then presumably crypt is not. However, I note again that the wiki's specification does not correspond with what I am actually using so maybe there are just many different ways to specify things correctly.


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