The Arch Communities Mentality to Newcomers

davidm · 2014-11-26 16:26:16

Trilby,

I think that would work as well and it would probably work best in fact. The only problem I see is that not everyone is good with dealing with people and I wonder if "having to sugarcoat things to the n00bs" would make some less enthusiastic about their positions and perhaps eventually quit. The position wouldn't necessarily need any authority at all. The idea would simply be "to let someone who is actually good with dealing with people (especially new Arch users) deal with them" in order to minimize misunderstandings and ill will. That way everyone is free to focus on what they are best at rather than perhaps being out of their element so to speak. For authority none would probably be needed but such a position would work best with someone who, in addition to being patient and good with new users, also has some sort respect from the administrative/developer community. So perhaps a current or former administrative/developer staff member would be best if this is ever implemented.

I'm not sure why someone would be offended to be contacted by such a person as opposed to an admin. I guess it might differ between various people or perhaps you are thinking of things being done in a way which is different than I am? If someone contacted me and started acting as if they have authority over me and telling me what to do I would probably be a little offended as well. But if they were nice and simply introduced themselves and made a few suggestions and offered their further help if needed I would be impressed that someone cares and that the community really has their act together. The same for also having someone official in place to address grievances, misunderstandings and other issues. It's a very professional thing to have and most large organizations have such a position. It also helps the user feel like a member of the community as opposed to being "an outsider" as another poster put it a few replies up.

Last edited by davidm (2014-11-26 16:31:58)

jasonwryan · 2014-11-26 16:56:32

Grievances between staff and members of the community are, as per our policy, adjudicated by the Overlord.

I understand the rationale for the role, but think it is not applicable here. The community here is like the distro, simple and direct. If you read the documentation (in this case, the Etiquette) and follow it, everything works as expected. If you want to skip that step, breakage can happen...

lestcape · 2014-11-28 10:33:39

I only join to share the same thing about G+ community.

I was trying create a python tools to install packages on different distros:
https://github.com/lestcape/Cinnamon-Installer

The intention was unify the installers from the differents distros that have more Cinnamon user, without force the users to install packageskit directly. The idea was that this will occurs from a menu, that i provided to Cinnamon desktop. Like we can see, is a popular menu on cinnamon:
http://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/applets/view/171

Thanks to Manjaro users this was possible:
https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=11754.10

I speak with several user about the complexity of do that, because the distros handle the packages in different ways. So, this project will be impossible without the help of people from diferent distros... One user will compromise with find people on other distros, but the mods of the G+ community always removed the post from this user. I was joined to the G+ community of Arch only for ask why this occurs, and for asking help directly.
https://plus.google.com/104912934147790 … uGVvG6tHmD
https://plus.google.com/u/0/104912934147790631255/posts

They explain me that the Cinnamon desktop it's not related with Arch, just because Cinnamon it's a project of Mint, not an Arch project and the reason of why Cinnamon is on the official repos not meant at all that Cinnamon could be relate with Arch. I try to explain that free software in general are not relate with an specific distro at all. They are free and can be used or modify according of the interests of the distro. So, blocking a free software project is an absurd... And it's go against to the principles of Arch distro as a whole. Is like saying, that the linux kernel it's not related with Arch, because it's relate with a project of Linus Torvalds https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts, not an Arch project... But they don't understand reasons...

Finally i was expelled of Arch G+ community and as i can not get user feedback from Arch. I have an explicit message to Arch users in all my applets and desklets of Cinnamon:
http://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/applets/view/171
http://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/desklets/view/18
http://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/desklets/view/12

I will share some parts of the conversations here, that i also share with Clement Lefebvre https://github.com/clefebvre, because he asked me why i have this message in all my applets and desklets. He not agree to have conflict to other distros. I explain him why, and also i say him that all applets and desklets work also better in Arch than on Ubuntu (the distro that normally i use). That is only a warning for users.

Alexander Diana
10 de mar. de 2014
Yes, and I agree with the Dev that it's silly.

Alexander Diana
10 de mar. de 2014
I still don't even know what you are trying to get arch to "support".

Lester Carballo Perez
10 de mar. de 2014
I need to make a GUI wrapper of pacman, and also all installer of all distros if i want to have this feature on all distros. If i can not wrapper pacman, ofcourse that i can not support Arch. and ofcourse that made this thing for all distros it's a big work, no a silly...

+Alexander Diana do you indirectly said that the feature that have the Mint Menu of Clement and love all user of Linux Mint like me, it's a silly... And if it's a silly, why them it's not implemented on cinnamon? Simple, because involved several distro... And you will see what happend when someone try to do a thing that involve several distros...

I don't have any problem with a specific person or distro or community.... I only don't have a way to have user feedback on Arch. When this will be restore, i will remove the messages.

Thanks for understand the damages that this could produce to the Arch user (not in my particular case) and the damages to free software in general. I recommend taking part in this matter and create a real official G+ community, that can represent the Arch interest, and not denigrate Arch and users and developers Arch. They do not deserve that.

Last edited by lestcape (2014-11-28 11:09:02)

Lone_Wolf · 2014-11-28 13:28:07

Lestcape,

on archlinux homepage i don't find any mention of a G+ community, the archwiki also doesn't mention it.
I doubt the one your refer to is an official channel of the arch community.

To me, the official archlinux community consists of everything under the archlinux.org domain + things (irc channels, community sites etc) mentioned on archlinux home page.

As for getting feedback from archlinux cinnamon users : this forum, arch-general mailinglist and possibly arch IRC channels would be useful.

Edit:
Opps, seems i should have searched for "google plus" .

The G+ community is listed here in the wiki : https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ge … y_projects

archwiki wrote:

Note: All projects listed here are community projects. None of these projects are considered official Arch projects.

I think that note clarifies that the G+ community is not part of the official arch community.

Last edited by Lone_Wolf (2014-11-28 13:33:05)

Trilby · 2014-11-28 13:41:27

I have no affiliation with nor knowledge of the google plus group, and the little I've heard makes it unappealing to me - but I think the 'not official' disclaimer is problematic. Technically nothing in the AUR is officially supported. Other init systems discussed on this forum (and incidentally in your signature Lone_Wolf) are not 'officially supported'. If we restrict our definition of what is pat of the arch linux community to what is officially supported, then we wouldn't really have much of a community at all.

ANOKNUSA · 2014-11-28 14:53:23

@lestscape: You registered on these forums just to complain. I don't know what kind of sympathy you were expecting, since no community I'm aware of finds that sort of thing endearing. As to your issue with the G+ group---don't peddle your software. Make it work, then make it available. Anounce it in the forums for your own distribution of choice. Feel free to make a PKGBUILD for it. If people want to use it they will, but folks in the Arch community (and probably other distributions' communities) typically don't respond well to users of other distributions treating us like a focus group. You claim that you were just looking to share information and possibly solicit help, but I really can't say how true that is, given that you never actually link to any of the conversations you reference. Every link in your post is just a link back to your own project and the pages of people you seem to think either support or conflict with you. There's no actual evidence of mistreatment provided. In my opinion, your post counts as spam.

Cinnamon-Installer GitHub Page wrote:

This program not longer has support for Arch Linux.
The comunity of Arch Linux do not want that I or other Cinnamon developer, publish about Cinnamon, and receive the users feedback (necessary on the developing any app). When the comunity of Arch Linux, want to be open to the free software world, sure that I want to support Arch Linux again...

lestcape wrote:

I don't have any problem with a specific person or distro or community... I only don't have a way to have user feedback on Arch. When this will be restore, i will remove the messages.

First off, the above sentence is self-contradictory, even without the quote from the GitHub page. If you didn't have a problem you wouldn't feel compelled to tell everyone you encounter about ths one negative experience. Second, maybe you got a poor response because you're the sort of person who thinks they can hold a community's reputation hostage to further their own ends. You can't saunter into a group of strangers and insist that they help you with your pet project and expect anything but a mixed-to-negative response. That's just a fact of human life. People don't like things being pushed on them, and publicly lambasting them won't change that. The situation is only aggravated by your apparent misunderstanding of how Arch works as a distribution platform. You can "withhold" support for Arch all you like; Arch users still have it in their power to write up a build script that fetches your source code, builds it into a package and installs your software, if they so choose. We can do that with any open-source software. Which, when you think about it, kinda makes your new-fangled package manager superfluous. That's how we do things. Yours isn't a case of encountering hostile natives----it's a case of culture shock.

lestcape · 2014-11-28 16:10:12

Please, understand this as advice, not an imposition or fight.

The major fault that i see i's that a public network as google appear at first than the Arch page (google to search). A new user that came here, normally he visited google first or he come from G+ fleeing.

Any person are free to think what they want (me too) and this is not a problem at all, but could become in a problem, if have a radical interpretation, as currently happens in G+. Also some user here.

Any way, is very good to know, that as it should be, the position of the Arch community and the G+ is not the same. Was good know that the novice on Arch, have a way to learn and a places to ask and share ideas for the free software on general that can be used on Arch. Was to late for me.

I will remove my comments about Arch on the next version.

Lone_Wolf · 2014-11-29 13:27:52

lestcape wrote:

The major fault that i see i's that a public network as google appear at first than the Arch page (google to search)

That's due to the personalisation google uses to give you "better" search results.
I have never used google+ , and if i search archlinux, the google+ archlinux community is listed in the middle of the 2nd page.
(for me google personalised search made finding the links/answers i need much harder, so i switched to DDG 2+ years ago.)

dice · 2014-11-29 23:23:10

It seems as if some folks at G+ are claim to represent the arch community and do so in a bad way. For outsiders or newcomers it is hard to recognize that the G+ community does not represent the whole (official) arch community.
Until reading this thread I didn't even that there is a G+ community for arch.
As you can see, I am not a member of this community for long (just 9+ Months). But from my perspective the community, that is mostly the forums for me, is friendly. Usually, when asking a question, one gets what he needs to solve the problems without handholding. This way I learned a lot in a rather short time.

Sometimes the arch community is criticized for 'glorifying' the wiki. Actually, most of te problems I encounter in everyday arch linux life are covered in the wiki. The one's which are not are mostly due to some recent changes on packages or problems related to a specific setup.
When I use a different distro (yes, that happens sometimes when working on machines I do not own, e.g. work, university, etc.) I visit arch wiki for help when I encounter a problem because I don't know of any other site where for almost any software there is a page explaining how it works how to setup basic configs and what difficulties could occur.
This is just an awesome work of the community and something to be proud of. (Maybe I am glorifying a bit here )

Therefore being a newcomer to this community isn't that hard. You just have to do your homework before asking questions. In my experience most of the members here are very patient when it comes to threads by newcomers who didn't research first. usually they are told to first read some information on the wiki and are shown the related wiki page. If this does not help one can get good advice from the other members. Nothing wrong about that mentality.

hcra · 2014-11-30 00:28:54

In my experience, I've see communities go down the drain where helpers swarm on the Help Vampires like flies at a picnic. When a Vampire enters the camp, the helpers appear out of nowhere, often repeating one another over-and-over, defending the virtues of the community and earning stars and badges in the process.

Pretty soon, it's more about the helpers than those helped. The highest blessing goes to the rising stars; that is, to the true believers who offer themselves sacrificially to the Vampires. Trolls masquerade as seekers and egg on the righteous helpers.

Thankfully, those who help at Arch are more interested in teaching people how to fish, to use an old cliche. Thank you Arch helpers for teaching me!

lestcape · 2014-11-30 04:20:57

I personally think, what is classify as a Help Vampires, is the major number of person, that try to understand a new thing... Me include... When you are not a new user, or you are not trying to understand a new thing or situation, also could happen the same. We are not a robot and a clear sample, not could be treated equally by different users. Also understand english, for non native english users, could be difficult.

When you can classify a persona as a Help Vampire, will be when the same thing happen with the same user and the solution of the problem will be the same that will applied before and continued asking, pointless... There are a lot of situations where the same pretty clear procedure, could not get the same result, because could be related with a hidden configuration (not taken into account) that could create different scenarios for users... I think that there not one person in this world, with the ability to classify a new user as a Help Vampire, after read the first post of this user... Also you can not expect that a non Arch user, that want to do or test an specific thing on Arch, can or need to understand how Arch work as a whole.

Edit:
Like an example:
If I'm not an Arch user, and i don't want to be an Arch user, this not means that i can not contribute to Arch indirectly, making things that could be installed on Arch...

I have right now a Nautilus and Nemo extension for Ultracopier (that is true, but ultracopier apparently is not working on arch, so create a package to arch now is not useful):
https://github.com/lestcape/Nemo-UltraCopier-Extension
https://github.com/lestcape/Nautilus-Ul … -Extension

This extentions integrate pretty well and with the support of the developer of ultracopier for the next version:
https://github.com/alphaonex86/Ultracopier/issues/8.

I'm not an Arch user so, whoever want package the extentions, to be used on Arch could done this without any problem (and if require my help, i can collaborate). But i don't need to do that and i don't want to understand how create packages for Arch, and if i try to understand how, possible i will classify as a Help Vampire. Because my intention it's not understand Arch, and i don't want... I don't use Arch right now... Who lost? The users that want to have the integration:
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ultracopier/

Last edited by lestcape (2014-11-30 17:03:00)

cedeel · 2014-11-30 07:42:29

Lestcape, first of all, that was one wall of text. Please try to break it up a bit for readability and perhaps use full periods instead of ellipses.

Second of all, help vampires are super easy to identify on this board, especially for people with knowledge about the question being asked.

Third of all, you've already had one thread closed about this topic, don't pollute another with that. It simply does not belong here.

jasonwryan · 2014-11-30 07:47:42

lestcape wrote:

I'm not an Arch user, and if i don't want to be an Arch user...

Then please find somewhere else to work out your frustrations with the random people you encoutered on some other website that has nothing to do with this one.

JohnBobSmith · 2014-11-30 08:32:07

As a complete beginner to Arch, I find the community to be very willing to help a brother out. So long as one has some common sense and asks intelligent questions, I think there will be no problems. I spent the entire afternoon on the IRC and Wiki, getting my system going. I'm now posting this from my arch install, with Fluxbox as my WM and a working Firefox for web browsing.

All in all, I really think the the mentality towards new guys is welcoming, but be prepared to pull your weight.

CarlD · 2014-11-30 10:56:58

jasonwryan wrote:

lestcape wrote:
I'm not an Arch user, and if i don't want to be an Arch user...
Then please find somewhere else to work out your frustrations with the random people you encoutered on some other website that has nothing to do with this one.

Really? The G+ community are using Arch's trademarked logo, and there is nothing on their site to indicate that they are unofficial or unaffiliated in any way. If this were the case, then I see to reason why members of this board would be so defensive in their attitude about them, either.

I don't believe for an instant that nothing can be done. There is a lack of will - not ability - as betrayed by the very weak arguments and childish retorts posted. I suspect that no-one but the fanboys are buying into them. Letscape (and many others before him) deserved far more respect and consideration than they have been afforded by either community.

There is a difference between academic and emotional intelligence. I genuinely hope that you and the other socially-inept members of this community become familiar with the latter concept at some point... as much for your own benefit as the poor saps who cross your paths.

karol · 2014-11-30 11:15:27

CarlD wrote:

jasonwryan wrote:
lestcape wrote:
I'm not an Arch user, and if i don't want to be an Arch user...
Then please find somewhere else to work out your frustrations with the random people you encoutered on some other website that has nothing to do with this one.
Really? The G+ community are using Arch's trademarked logo, and there is nothing on their site to indicate that they are unofficial or unaffiliated in any way.

I recall having this discussion about the unofficial Official Arch Linux G+ page once or twice since it has been announced: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=129923 but I agree with jasonwryan wrt lestcape's posts.

clfarron4 · 2014-11-30 11:27:11

karol wrote:

CarlD wrote:
jasonwryan wrote:
Then please find somewhere else to work out your frustrations with the random people you encoutered on some other website that has nothing to do with this one.
Really? The G+ community are using Arch's trademarked logo, and there is nothing on their site to indicate that they are unofficial or unaffiliated in any way.
I recall having this discussion about the unofficial Official Arch Linux G+ page once or twice since it has been announced: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=129923 but I agree with jasonwryan wrt lestcape's posts.

I think @lestcape is referring to this community...

CarlD · 2014-11-30 12:39:50

karol wrote:

CarlD wrote:
jasonwryan wrote:
Then please find somewhere else to work out your frustrations with the random people you encoutered on some other website that has nothing to do with this one.
Really? The G+ community are using Arch's trademarked logo, and there is nothing on their site to indicate that they are unofficial or unaffiliated in any way.
I recall having this discussion about the unofficial Official Arch Linux G+ page once or twice since it has been announced: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=129923 but I agree with jasonwryan wrt lestcape's posts.

Thanks for the link.

Yes, you were right about that particular G+ community as well. That's the one causing all the problems, and that's the one so many people think are official. Apparently including some others on this thread who leapt to defend them!

I'll at least clarify all this on my own forums. Thanks again.

Carl

Awebb · 2014-11-30 13:00:00

In my experience, creating a thread is the last in a long list of symptoms of brain farts. I have thirteen threads in four and a half years. Three of them were necessary, because I was really lost in documentation and did not know anymore where to start digging for nuggets. One was a bug hunt. The rest are fine examples of "things I should know but could not access in my brain" and "something went wrong while searching". Most of the time I want to create a new thread, I collect all the information I need to help others help me and usually find my answer in the process.

I find this message board to be one of the most friendly places on the internet. There is little to no name calling, people tend to stick with the facts. I rarely see unprofessional debates and if so, it's either a noob who has been here for a day and does not yet know how we roll or some systemd-heartbroken fellow. The usual arrogance we find in other places is substituted by a climate of competence. Nobody dares to be a smartass around here, because false information, incompetence and stupidity does not survive very long around so many people who really know their stuff.

Another thing I dislike about many other message boards is this "let's talk about things without thinking first" mentality. I could provide examples, but I try not to disrespect other projects, so you will have to take my word for it. They often start with "Wouldn't it be great...", then go on over half a page full of incoherent nonsense and result in everybody giving his opinion about anything remotely related. I know, we have our game threads (the entire Try This section, basically) and I could simply not read those threads, but they show up in the thread list, I read the title, think I can help, read until lost, mourn the wasted time. What's even worse, this mentality seems to induce offtopic way more often. We also commit idle chatter, but there is always a mod at hand to remind us, that this is not a chatbox (however the phrasing might be).

I fully subscribe to the DYI, RTFM and LMGTFY mentality of the Arch community. If a noob has trouble adapting, I suggest to stay calm and follow the lead. Everything else would be like going to a vegan restaurant and demand a raw beef steak, flipping tables until I get it.

ANOKNUSA · 2014-11-30 14:38:54

CarlD wrote:

The G+ community are using Arch's trademarked logo, and there is nothing on their site to indicate that they are unofficial or unaffiliated in any way.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/De … mitted_Use

This has come up on these boards before, but with regard to the ArchBang website. Time was the ArchBang site explicitly told newcomers to come here for help. That, combined with the nearly identical site branding, led some people to believe ArchBang had the official sanction of the Arch developers, forum mods and TUs. Folks here were not happy about it, and after some discussion one of the ArchBang leads buried a disclaimer on the ArchBang wiki FAQ. That's as far as it went as I recall it. You can't always control how people will utilize the freedom they're accorded, or that they'll do so responsibly. Oh well.

lestcape · 2014-11-30 15:11:27

jasonwryan wrote:

lestcape wrote:
I'm not an Arch user, and if i don't want to be an Arch user...
Then please find somewhere else to work out your frustrations with the random people you encoutered on some other website that has nothing to do with this one.

I'm an Arch user, i need to be one, after G+. Not only Arch, also Fedora, Mint, Manjaro Antergos.... I have several linux distro installed. Also i need to say without not more help that the wiki... so thanks for the wiki. Is really well done. I never seen anything like it. What I speak it's about G+. so...

Trilby · 2014-11-30 15:15:58

Letscape, I emphathize with your frustrations. But the point being made in this thread is that G+ and archlinux.org are different sites ran by different people. If you are unhappy with them, there is no point telling us.

Also posting complete contradictions in each post makes it very hard to have a discussion. Are you an arch user or not? I don't care either way, but you can have it both ways whenever it suits the point you want to make.

Awebb · 2014-11-30 15:22:07

lestcape wrote:

jasonwryan wrote:
lestcape wrote:
I'm not an Arch user, and if i don't want to be an Arch user...
Then please find somewhere else to work out your frustrations with the random people you encoutered on some other website that has nothing to do with this one.
I'm an Arch user, i need to be one, after G+. Not only Arch, also Fedora, Mint, Manjaro Antergos.... I have several linux distro installed. Also i need to say without not more help that the wiki... so thanks for the wiki. Is really well done. I never seen anything like it. What I speak it's about G+. so...

But you do understand, that the G+ group is just a fan club and not an official channel? The same applies to the reddit board, Diaspora groups, Facebook groups and whatever you can find that has no link on the home page.

karol · 2014-11-30 15:31:46

Awebb wrote:

But you do understand, that the G+ group is just a fan club and not an official channel?

The person who announced https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=129923 is a dev. It says it's the official Arch G+ page.

lestcape · 2014-11-30 16:07:40

Trilby wrote:

Letscape, I emphathize with your frustrations. But the point being made in this thread is that G+ and archlinux.org are different sites ran by different people. If you are unhappy with them, there is no point telling us.
Also posting complete contradictions in each post makes it very hard to have a discussion. Are you an arch user or not? I don't care either way, but you can have it both ways whenever it suits the point you want to make.

Oh, yes sorry: After that "I'm not an Arch user, and if i don't want to be an Arch user, this not means that i can not contribute to Arch indirectly" it's an example(not a true)... But i use a real current case. See, was patched the pamac binding for python, in the manjaro distro, So i need to install Arch to create a patch, now is working... See the day:

https://github.com/lestcape/Configurabl … t-40875343

Sorry, i'm not speak english well how you can see.

Arch Linux

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