Arch Linux

arooaroo

Member

From: London, UK

Registered: 2005-01-13

Posts: 1,268

Website

Re: is Arch falling behind?

The Frugalware Developer Team is pleased to announce the immediate availability of Frugalware 0.4 for the i686 and x86_64 architectures, our fourth stable release...

[snip]

They've got Jacman in their official repositories, and they even include help for setting up Jacman in their official Install and Configure docs.

What are the chances of that happening here?! (Not that I actually care). Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread to plug my own stuff

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arooaroo | Jacman (Pacman GUI) | Getting to Grips with LaTeX | flickr

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Lone_Wolf

Forum Moderator

From: Netherlands, Europe

Registered: 2005-10-04

Posts: 12,255

Re: is Arch falling behind?

In short : ArchLinux has many experienced users. Make them part of the team, even if they only maintain 1 package !

Sounds good - but: packages have dependencies! So groups have to be build. It's almost not possible to only maintain a single package.

3 random examples that could easily be maintained seperately :

packages                 dependencies
krusader                  kdebase
dosbox                    sdl_net , sdl_sound, libgl, libpng
nethack                   ncurses, gzip

If kdebase, sdl_net, sdl_sound, libgl, libpng, ncurses , gzip are maintained by arch devs, then those 3 packages can easily be kept uptodate by users.

I think there are lots more of these packages.

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Disliking systemd intensely, but not satisfied with alternatives so focusing on taming systemd.

(A works at time B)  && (time C > time B ) ≠  (A works at time C)

iphitus

Forum Fellow

From: Melbourne, Australia

Registered: 2004-10-09

Posts: 4,927

Re: is Arch falling behind?

Its not as simple as giving the users control of the packages.

It'd be quite simple for a user to slip a rm -rf / in a post install script. Hence, they have to be trusted. Trusted users in community.

James

pressh

Developer/TU

From: Netherlands

Registered: 2005-08-14

Posts: 1,719

Re: is Arch falling behind?

Its not as simple as giving the users control of the packages.

It'd be quite simple for a user to slip a rm -rf / in a post install script. Hence, they have to be trusted. Trusted users in community.

James

you've got a point, but I think one needs to put in too much effort to become a TU.
As I see it there are quite a few people around here who can be trusted (also they should have been around for a while) who are able to maintain some packages. I know some time ago there was a call to advertise themselves etc etc which resulted in 2 (?) TUs. As there is quite a need for some more TUs (well, devs too ) I think it would not be a bad idea to have a clear procedure which one can follow if one wants to be a TU.
Once we gain more TUs it would not be a bad idea to move some TUs to the devs (if they want of course).

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: is Arch falling behind?

Such a procedure exists, more TUs is certainly a good thing, feel free to volunteer. I'm really getting tired of threads like this, guys.

Was just talking to a dev. He suggests if you think frugalware is ahead you should use frugalware. ;-)

Dusty

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** Arch Linux Apparel and more ** Arch Linux stickers, laptop bags, jewelery ** I wrote a book on Python 3 ** and one on mental health **

pressh

Developer/TU

From: Netherlands

Registered: 2005-08-14

Posts: 1,719

Re: is Arch falling behind?

Such a procedure exists, more TUs is certainly a good thing, feel free to volunteer. I'm really getting tired of threads like this, guys.

Dusty

I did not say there didn't exist a procedure

In order to become a Trusted User, one must first find a sponsoring active TU, and arrange privately with them to announce their candidacy on the tur-users mailing list.
Following the announcement, standard voting procedure commences with a discussion period of 5 days, a quorum of 66%, and a voting period of 7 days.

I volunteer  8)  for whatever it's worth. Can I take the responsibility? yes I can. Am I willing to do the best for the community? Yes I do.
Am I willing to have some kind of advertising campain so a TU is willing to sponsor me? no I don't. Seriously, I REALLY want to help Arch and I got some free time too, but begging other TUs to sponsor me?
Well, it might be just me.

[edit]

Was just talking to a dev. He suggests if you think frugalware is ahead you should use frugalware.

I just happen to like Arch and want to help make it an even better distro   

MillTek

Member

Registered: 2005-01-30

Posts: 442

Re: is Arch falling behind?

This has been an interesting thread in some respects but I'll add the following into the pot;

I agree with Dusty.  There are too many threads like this in recent times.  Personally I can't see the problem with Arch just as it is. I'll put it in perspective.

I was using various flavours of Windows until about two years ago. For the preceeding 12 years I'd say I upgraded my hardware about every 18 months (usually to the latest and greatest). All this was to try and gain or at least maintain some performance at the desktop. 

I distro-hopped until I found Arch. Since then I have no desire to spend money on hardware because the OS keeps improving thus eliminating the feeling that better hardware would help the system work more efficiently.  I also have no desire to change distros. Arch does everything I need and it does it well. The whole rolling release philosophy works great.  My system gets better and better because the software keeps improving.   I've used 'testing' a few times and didn't have any problems.

All of this has been achieved using a system developed and maintained by people that are either employed elsewhere or students. None of whom make a dime from it.  I think it's incredible.

If some users want a 64bit port then a separate group should be established to do that. The users that are asking for the port should be part of that group. I can't imagine that the current dev group could maintain two architectures. It's just not reasonable to expect that.

On the Open Office front the same holds true to a large extent. That's a huge system. To make the effort of producing a 'native' version knowing that it would have to be repeated in a fairly short time would probably cause burn-out pretty quickly. 

When you have a 'golden goose' you don't want to piss it off.

Just my 2 cents.

Jim

iphitus

Forum Fellow

From: Melbourne, Australia

Registered: 2004-10-09

Posts: 4,927

Re: is Arch falling behind?

Its not as simple as giving the users control of the packages.

It'd be quite simple for a user to slip a rm -rf / in a post install script. Hence, they have to be trusted. Trusted users in community.

James

you've got a point, but I think one needs to put in too much effort to become a TU.

Nonsense.

As I see it there are quite a few people around here who can be trusted (also they should have been around for a while) who are able to maintain some packages.

Many of these people have real life and cannot or do not wish to spend the time on TU responsibilities.

I know some time ago there was a call to advertise themselves etc etc which resulted in 2 (?) TUs. As there is quite a need for some more TUs (well, devs too ) I think it would not be a bad idea to have a clear procedure which one can follow if one wants to be a TU.

3
Only 3 people posted to the ML and were considered by the other TU's, ready for a position. I think it was only 4 or 5 in total that posted. Again, that call was to the users, the users did not respond. Aint the TU/Dev's fault.

There is a process, and it's simple. Post an email the the TU mailing list if you would like to become a TU. A common request once you have posted on the list, is to post the 3 pkgbuilds you are most proud of. If you are trustworthy, and get sponsored by a TU, then there is a discussion period, and a vote takes place.

Post on ML > Sponsorship > Discussion > Vote

Details on the process here: http://archlinux.org/~simo/TUbylaws.html#Addition

James

pressh

Developer/TU

From: Netherlands

Registered: 2005-08-14

Posts: 1,719

Re: is Arch falling behind?

I apologize for my words, as I should have been more polite. I guess I had a bad day. Also I think you are more or less correct with your points you made above.
Although it's not wrong to have such discussions, it was not good to put it here. :oops:

clarence

Member

From: fremantle.au

Registered: 2005-10-12

Posts: 294

Re: is Arch falling behind?

1. Do I care what other distro's are doing? No.
2. Do I like the fact that the devs are (apparently) not trying to please anybody but themselves? You betcha.

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fck art, lets dance.

Mr Green

Forum Fellow

From: U.K.

Registered: 2003-12-21

Posts: 5,899

Website

Re: is Arch falling behind?

If you need any help Andy you know where to find me ....

/me thinks about becoming a TU

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Mr Green

T-Dawg

Forum Fellow

From: Charlotte, NC

Registered: 2005-01-29

Posts: 2,736

Re: is Arch falling behind?

I want to be a FU.

iBertus

Member

From: Greenville, NC

Registered: 2004-11-04

Posts: 2,228

Re: is Arch falling behind?

I would also consider becoming a TU if time were to allow me to be a productive contributer. I'll read the guidelines this weekend and if I can help I'll try and get a sponser. That isn't too much trouble b/c it ensures a certain level of 'trust' is gained before the user begins packaging things for the greater community.

Also, why don't people that want to volunteer time without becoming a TU just become active AUR contributors?

@ Penguin: You're already a Forum User. :SmartAssSmiley:

Lone_Wolf

Forum Moderator

From: Netherlands, Europe

Registered: 2005-10-04

Posts: 12,255

Re: is Arch falling behind?

As non-TU AUR contributor the options are limited :

you can take on an orphaned package
you can try to find an app that isn't in AUR yet

about 10% of unsupported is orphan.

Perhaps packages that haven't been updated for more than a year can be made orphaned by TU's, so new people get a bit more choice ?

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Disliking systemd intensely, but not satisfied with alternatives so focusing on taming systemd.

(A works at time B)  && (time C > time B ) ≠  (A works at time C)

tomk

Forum Fellow

From: Ireland

Registered: 2004-07-21

Posts: 9,839

Re: is Arch falling behind?

Direct me to an AUR package that hasn't been updated in a year (are there any?) and I'll orphan it for you. If you're on the AUR ML, you will have seen various request for inactive packages to be orphaned - these are usually made after attempts to contact the contributor have failed, and so far they have always been actioned.

phrakture

Arch Overlord

From: behind you

Registered: 2003-10-29

Posts: 7,879

Website

Re: is Arch falling behind?

The lack of support for the 64bit port is really disappoiting me as 64bit will be the future :cry:

Will it?  Is that an absolute certainty?

We'll all be using 64 bit on the day we are all using ipv6.

Excellent!  That's the best analogy I've heard so far.

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http://phraktured.net

tyme

Member

From: PA

Registered: 2003-06-12

Posts: 139

Website

Re: is Arch falling behind?

oh how i love threads such as this one.  someone notices that another distro is doing things differently, or is "ahead", and decides that means this distro has a problem of some sort.  discussion and arguments ensue.

other distros will do what they please, and they may very well be ahead in some areas.  so?  this is what happens in open source.  this thread seems to have gone into a tailspin, with atleast 3 or 4 other issues being discussed simultaneously...perhaps it'd be helpful to everyone if serious, seperate discussions were started on topics of issue?  assuming they are actual issues, and not just people tossing back and forth hot air (this isn't meant to offend, god knows i'm guilty of it myself).

from a simple user standpoint, the arch community seems to function very well.  it has checks and balances, but it allows a lot of user contribution, something you don't see in many other distrubitions - where everything is locked into just the devels who work for that distro.  i'd venture to say that arch is one of the distro's that's doing things right.  but don't take my word for it, go try out the other distros...i have.  i came back.

now, i'm not condemning serious discussion on issues, but threads like this tend to get muddy and become extremely hard to actually get something out of.  the community should present issues to the main arch team, but it's up to the arch team to decide how to run things, otherwise you end up with the problem of trying to satisfy everyone all the time - and that will bog down any project.

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Generic Geek Unit

phrakture

Arch Overlord

From: behind you

Registered: 2003-10-29

Posts: 7,879

Website

Re: is Arch falling behind?

Very well said tyme.

now, i'm not condemning serious discussion on issues, but threads like this tend to get muddy and become extremely hard to actually get something out of.  the community should present issues to the main arch team, but it's up to the arch team to decide how to run things, otherwise you end up with the problem of trying to satisfy everyone all the time - and that will bog down any project.

I hate threads like this, and here's the reason:  This is true of the open source philosophy in general.  If you want something done, you *need* to provide evidence or a proof of concept check.  Just saying "hey, something is wrong" isn't going to get you anywhere.
The people running the show are going to look at it this way:

1) Person A complains that "Feature X" isn't as good as it should be.  Developers on the project think "Hmm, it's fine for me, I'm not doing any extra work".

2) Person A provides a feature suggestion on how "Feature X" can be improved.  Developers on the project think "might be a good idea, I'll put it on the 'wishlist'"

3) Person A provides a patch to make "Feature X" better.  Developers on the project verify the patch works fine and doesn't break anything.  They think "Holy crap, free work that I don't have to do" and it gets merged in.

Choose (2) or (3), please.

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http://phraktured.net

lumiwa

Member

Registered: 2005-12-26

Posts: 712

Re: is Arch falling behind?

I am ''normal'' operating system user. I installed ARCH Linux in december 2005 and I like it very much. It is true that sometimes I am angry on it but usual is my mistake because I don't read before update (I have testing repo on),
IMO is bleeding edge but is also very stable. From december to now I learn a lot of Linux (again) and...thank you for this very good distro. Just stay on your way...:)

notz

Member

From: Graz, Austria

Registered: 2005-04-05

Posts: 23

Re: is Arch falling behind?

i would say yes and no. arch is a very good distribution.

in frugal i miss some very nice features (like mkinitrd, mkinitramfs, aur, the great community,...), but the core scripts pacman & pacman-tools are much improved in frugal. frugal added very usefull scritpts and util functions.

who is currently developing pacman ? -> frugal.

we should think about that.

MAC!EK

Member

Registered: 2005-09-27

Posts: 267

Re: is Arch falling behind?

who is currently developing pacman ? -> frugal.

I thought Judd does.

mezoko

Member

Registered: 2005-03-26

Posts: 310

Website

Re: is Arch falling behind?

I think judd does but frugalware release patches for pacman for there distro.

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"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

T-Dawg

Forum Fellow

From: Charlotte, NC

Registered: 2005-01-29

Posts: 2,736

Re: is Arch falling behind?

who is currently developing pacman ? -> frugal.

we should think about that.

Frugal is helping but Judd is still the head developer.

mezoko

Member

Registered: 2005-03-26

Posts: 310

Website

Re: is Arch falling behind?

^^
Thanks Penguin for clearing that up

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"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

soloport

Member

Registered: 2005-03-01

Posts: 442

Re: is Arch falling behind?

This thread made my blood boil.  It says to me: If I want to get a response on these forums, all I need to do is shit all over Arch.

I've posted a few threads, trying to be useful, helpful and asking for help from others and I get pretty much *squat* for response.

Someone disses Arch, and the floodgates open up.  Wow. :shock:

Maybe I should rephrase some of my earlier posts:
1a) Instead of: Hey, I've written a few scripts to help with the "build unique ISO" scripts that Spider.007 wrote.  Anyone interested?

1b) I should have said: What's up with Arch?!  How lame is it to have to *wait* for the next ISO for so f***ing long?!  Is Arch falling behind?!!

2a) Instead of: Hey, I need a current mirror of Arch and most major providers out there are as stale as last weeks fish.  Can we work on this together?

2b) I should have said: How the hell can one expect to be bleeding edge with such a crapy bandwidth limit on rsync.archlinx.org?!!  No wonder Arch is falling behind!!!

Can you guys see what you're doing?  This isn't how you "build community".  It's simple troll feeding!

When someone pisses on Arch, the first response should simply be: "How have you contribnuted to help solve the issue you're having?"  And then lock the thread!

I just don't get it... 

/end rant

[Edited] To slightly tone it down