Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

fk · 2006-08-26 19:28:00

http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=24300

Gullible Jones · 2006-08-26 19:34:57

I updated my earlier bug report on it, but no dice right now. Damned if I know what's going on. :?

ralvez · 2006-08-26 22:21:11

detto wrote:

full ack ravelz
u mind i quote this thingy "If your problem has a solution, why make a problem out of the situation ... and if it does not why worry about what you cannot fix?" to my signature? this is just sooo damn true!
cheers,
detto

go for it detto!!

lumiwa · 2006-08-26 22:42:48

How many Arch users has a Nvidia video cards that all other users need to waiting for 7.1, please?

Gullible Jones · 2006-08-26 22:49:19

That's moot... Waiting is no longer necessary, because nVidia's drivers now fully support 7.1.

markzzzsmith · 2006-08-27 00:24:32

because without "ideology", Linux wouldn't exist.

I think that if you use Linux you should support its principles, because you've directly benefited from them. Linux might be free as in dollars, but it isn't free of principles.

Everything is a trade off. If you can't get ultra-mega high 3D frame rates because there aren't open source drivers for your video card, then either don't use Linux, or make the trade off and accept lower performance by using a video card that does have open source drivers. To do otherwise is hypocritical. You might think you "support" Linux, but if you don't support the principles that have created it and continue to improve it, then your not supporting it at all - you're weakening it.

Binary drivers are a cancer. Accepting them encourages that cancer to grow. If you continue to support ATi and NVidia's stance, then other vendors will say, "Gee, ATi and Nvidia are getting away with it, so we can." So the next network card you buy will have binary drivers, as will your next disk controller, next USB flash storage device, next printer etc. etc. You'll be trapped waiting for all these vendors to update their drivers before you can move to a new kernel version, or a new X.org version. You'll be trapped waiting until the last one upgrades their binary driver - if 4 out of 5 have upgraded, you'll still be waiting until the last one does. You'll be trapped because there will be a critical security update you need, yet you can't upgrade because you're waiting on a vendor to update a driver. You'll be trapped because a vendor might stop producing up to date binary drivers because there's no money in it for them to continue to do so. You'll be trapped because the kernel developers will ignore your bug reports, because "the vendor has our code, we don't have theirs."

Eventually cancer kills its host if it isn't treated.

ralvez · 2006-08-27 00:43:50

because without "ideology", Linux wouldn't exist.

The true ideology of Linux is not "assimilate our principles or we will destroy you", that's Microsoft's.
The ideology of Linux (or should I say Linus Torvalds) is that software should be free to be used as you see fit, that does not mean (and even Linus has stated it) that proprietary software is evil.
Once again, if they want to co-operate fine, if they do not the community will take over and do as we see fit.
I apprecitate your frustration but the if you apply the "ideology of Linux" you have a choice ... do not use their drivers.

Everything is a trade off. If you can't get ultra-mega high 3D frame rates because there aren't open source drivers for your video card, then either don't use Linux, or make the trade off and accept lower performance by using a video card that does have open source drivers. To do otherwise is hypocritical. You might think you "support" Linux, but if you don't support the principles that have created it and continue to improve it, then your not supporting it at all - you're weakening it.

I agree that everything is a trade off but wouldn't you be surprised if I told you I use vesa? I have an nvidia card but I do not use 3D or acceleration ... but true to the phylosofy of Unix/Linux I will not make a crusade against those that use them.
I respect your feelings but I think that there is more to life than Linux and Unix... I don't know may be it's just me but I fail to see the "gravity of the problem".

deficite · 2006-08-27 03:19:15

You know what you sound like? Everytime I read your replies I think I'm reading something written by an extremist zealot labor union leader-esque figure that's trying to start some kind of revolution or something.

You say that nVidia and ATi are a cancer with their closed-source drivers. On most subjects I would say that you are correct in saying that people will look at them as an example and build their own closed-source drivers and eventually it'll destroy your lovely OSS religion you partake in. The reason I don't think so in this particular instance is that graphics drivers aren't like drivers for say a network card or a sound card. To build a good graphics driver you need a firm understanding of the hardware and even if nVidia was willing to give out its trade secrets, it has contracts with companies that say they cannot legally do so. That's not to say you don't need a firm understanding of a sound or network card to develop drivers for them, but I think it's safe to say a graphics card is a bit more complex.

You also say that people have to learn to "settle" for a "little" less performance. The way you say it sounds like it's only a few FPS difference. I bought a $200 graphics card for my computer because I use applications that are heavy on the GPU department. By being forced to use software rendering I'm not nearly as productive and in some cases I'd have to change my workflow. I couldn't even get TuxRacer to run at acceptable speeds in software, and we all know how cheesy its graphics are.

Also, don't tell me not to use Linux. Would you like to point me in the direction of an OS that provides me (an nVidia user) a good, OSS graphics driver with hardware acceleration for free besides Linux and BSD? One that supports all the apps I use on Linux? You tell people to "settle" with slower graphics, why aren't you willing to settle with compiling Xorg with ABS? Try taking your own advice for a change

because without "ideology", Linux wouldn't exist.

No, Linux exists because Linus didn't want to screwed with the expense of a Unix system and he was bored. People talk about Linux like it's some kind of religion or something, but face it: it's a poor man's Unix.

I don't want to participate in a fruitless flamewar, but I also don't want you to say that Arch Linux is controlled by the corporations and such when it is simply not true. Judd and his associates put a heck of a lot more work into Arch Linux than you have and will put into it and they deserve better than that. I assure you they are keeping things updated as fast as they can without destroying Arch in the process. Have you tried to run your own distro for a while and keep it running as long as Arch has? It takes a lot of work to make sure Arch doesn't fall on its face with the issues a lot of distros have.

markzzzsmith · 2006-08-27 11:13:49

ralvez wrote:

because without "ideology", Linux wouldn't exist.
The true ideology of Linux is not "assimilate our principles or we will destroy you", that's Microsoft's.
The ideology of Linux (or should I say Linus Torvalds) is that software should be free to be used as you see fit, that does not mean (and even Linus has stated it) that proprietary software is evil.

Don't confuse proprietary user-space software with binary kernel modules, that run within the trusted environment of the kernel. Binary drivers can corrupt the whole kernel, closed source applications can only corrupt themselves.

Let me further answer by quoting somebody else on binary drivers in the kernel.

"I'm a complete non-believer in binary modules"

Basically, I want people to know that when they use binary-only modules, it's THEIR problem. I want people to know that in their bones, and I want it shouted out from the rooftops. I want people to wake up in a cold sweat every once in a while if they use binary-only modules.

If you don't like what he's saying, then I'd suggest you stop using Linux. After all, it's named after him, and he started it ...

ralvez · 2006-08-27 11:59:30

If you don't like what he's saying, then I'd suggest you stop using Linux. After all, it's named after him, and he started it ...

You seem very determined to deter people from using Linux ... if you really want to make a better job promoting Linux you should begin inviting people to use it ... otherwise, you are just as damaging as those people writing proprietary drivers.

Software is for computers and religion for the soul ... do not make religion out of software or you will be a very unhappy man.

That's all I have to say before I get out of this thread which I see going no where...

Gullible Jones · 2006-08-27 13:17:10

This is going so damned far off topic I cannot believe it. Markzzzsmith, would you please just take your preaching somewhere else?

JGC · 2006-08-27 15:44:24

I'm currently working on it. The biggest pitfall, called Mesa 6.5, is done now. As Mesa 6.5 doesn't support the latest intel chipsets supported by xf86-video-i810-1.6.5, I took 6.5.1-rc1 from fedora and compiled that.

IMHO the biggest pain in updating X.Org is not the non-free drivers, but finding the time and will to update packages that are a real PITA, like Mesa is (hey, let's wreck DESTDIR support, happy me Redhat fixed that in their specfile so I could look that over from them).

Then there's AIGLX, not much that uses it yet, the main project that uses it is Metacity, which will not include the compositor as it is experimental and libcm is only available as CVS snapshot that changes API every week, together with Mesa ofcourse.

I've used X.Org 7.1RC1 a while with my ATI Radeon 8500LE and the xf86-video-ati driver. I've had several problems, mainly massive slowdowns after playing a game like chromium: desktop was hardly usable after that, while it worked perfect with 7.0, so I reverted to that.

Then there was the non-free drivers that didn't work with X.Org 7.1, most users do have such cards, I have one at my job in my workstation that requires fglrx... Not nice to leave those users in the cold. They're fucked up already because of that shitty drivers that are supposed to work with X.Org 7.0.

The only reason why I'm doing this is for the poor users with new integrated Intel graphics chipsets, they have no chance to get their hardware fully supported without upgrading to X.Org 7.1.

So, this leaves me with an almost complete X.Org 7.1, only the drivers need finishing now. At this moment I'm running it with opensource drivers on my Radeon 8500LE, tried EXA: still shitty, so there's nothing exciting about Xorg 7.1, except for the Intel chipset graphics support.

deficite · 2006-08-27 17:15:54

markzzzsmith, don't tell people to stop using Linux, you have no right to do so. If you want to practice your little religion take it somewhere else, like a RMS cult's message board or something. YOU are not Linux and you have no right to determine what is and isn't Linux and who can and can't use Linux. I develop open source software. I use as much open source as I possibly can. I will, however, NOT waste my hardware investments on religious wars. I will always be on the side that wishes nVidia's drivers were open, but I am also thankful that they even take the time to develop good drivers for Linux. You're the type of person that no matter how much somebody gives you, you always want more. Like a little spoiled child. If you don't want to use the nVidia official driver, don't use it. If you want to demonstrate the GODLY power of OSS, make your own damn driver that runs better than nVidia's.

I maintain my position that you wish to criticize others for not willing to settle for less yet you can't settle for less and use ABS to compile Xorg 7.1 by yourself. The tools are provided for you right at your fingertips, you just got to stop preaching your religion to this message board for a few minutes and use it. Arch does a good job in making things work for almost everybody, why should they break that and say "Okay, um....sorry nVidia users, we don't give a crap about you." Yeah, sure nVidia users could also use ABS, but the difference here is that you can use pacman to get a working system regardless whether or not you use nVidia or one of its competitors. They're doing the best job they possibly can to make us users happy and they're not going to piss off the entire community just because you're too lazy to use ABS.

Gullible Jones · 2006-08-27 18:27:27

JGC wrote:

I'm currently working on it. The biggest pitfall, called Mesa 6.5, is done now. As Mesa 6.5 doesn't support the latest intel chipsets supported by xf86-video-i810-1.6.5, I took 6.5.1-rc1 from fedora and compiled that.
IMHO the biggest pain in updating X.Org is not the non-free drivers, but finding the time and will to update packages that are a real PITA, like Mesa is (hey, let's wreck DESTDIR support, happy me Redhat fixed that in their specfile so I could look that over from them).
Then there's AIGLX, not much that uses it yet, the main project that uses it is Metacity, which will not include the compositor as it is experimental and libcm is only available as CVS snapshot that changes API every week, together with Mesa ofcourse.
I've used X.Org 7.1RC1 a while with my ATI Radeon 8500LE and the xf86-video-ati driver. I've had several problems, mainly massive slowdowns after playing a game like chromium: desktop was hardly usable after that, while it worked perfect with 7.0, so I reverted to that.
Then there was the non-free drivers that didn't work with X.Org 7.1, most users do have such cards, I have one at my job in my workstation that requires fglrx... Not nice to leave those users in the cold. They're fucked up already because of that shitty drivers that are supposed to work with X.Org 7.0.
The only reason why I'm doing this is for the poor users with new integrated Intel graphics chipsets, they have no chance to get their hardware fully supported without upgrading to X.Org 7.1.
So, this leaves me with an almost complete X.Org 7.1, only the drivers need finishing now. At this moment I'm running it with opensource drivers on my Radeon 8500LE, tried EXA: still shitty, so there's nothing exciting about Xorg 7.1, except for the Intel chipset graphics support.

Ouch. Thanks for the effort man... I had no idea that it was that bad. Sounds like modular XOrg is still a mess. :shock:

deficite wrote:

markzzzsmith, don't tell people to stop using Linux, you have no right to do so.

On the contrary, he has every right to. It just doesn't make him any more correct of his rants any less vacuous.

fk · 2006-08-27 21:11:59

Big Thanks JGC

fk · 2006-08-27 21:12:27

Big Thanks JGC , I am one of the poor Intel GMA 945 user

chrismortimore · 2006-08-27 21:40:27

Surely if you don't like how a company is handling it's hardware support in Linux (such as ATI and Nvidia), don't use their products, agree? If you don't like their driver, don't use it. I hear Intels have quite nice support under Linux with the xorg driver. As does my old SiS chipset.

Equality, if you don't like a distributions policy on how they bring packages into the tree, then don't use it. If you don't like that Arch decided that because xorg-7.1 would break every nvidia and ati based machine (which is probably most) they decided to hold it back, then don't use Arch. Linux is about choice, and you have the choice to pick your distribution and therefore the package policy. Gentoo has had xorg-7.1 in the package tree (under testing) for months, and have had a giant notice saying "This will break you if you use nvidia or ati", Ubuntu have xorg-7.1 in their testing tree (I think), so there is choice out there.

Rant over, personally I don't care whether nvidia support xorg-7.1 or not, as long as my computers work, I'm happy I'm not too fussed about bleeding-edge (although Debian being 3 years behind was a little much for me...).[/img]

iBertus · 2006-08-27 21:54:24

I would be happy to only buy brands that fully supported open-source drivers when it doesn't wreck my workflow. Currently, nVidia is the only company/group publishing a working, accelerated 3D driver for Linux that is even close to the speeds obtained on Windows with the same hardware.

I use Linux because it is very easy to customize to my needs and I personally like the ability to get my work done without loosing it to some annoying virus, spyware or other malware. I support software because it's good not because of some idealogical reasoning. It's a fact that most users function this way, Linux users, Windows users, most users support the software they use only because it's what works for them.

markzzzsmith · 2006-08-27 22:08:52

ralvez wrote:

You seem very determined to deter people from using Linux ... if you really want to make a better job promoting Linux you should begin inviting people to use it ... otherwise, you are just as damaging as those people writing proprietary drivers.

If they're primarily using it only because it cost them no money, and they're ruining it because they support the use of binary drivers, then I'd rather deter them. Their support of binary drivers creates the possibilty of Linux been controlled by hardware vendors, who can chose whether or not to continue to support it on a whim, not the people who started it and continue to develop it. I've benefited greatly from using it for the last 14 years. The least I can do in return is help defend it against things that threaten it's existance.

chrismortimore · 2006-08-27 22:28:57

markzzzsmith wrote:

Linux been controlled by hardware vendors

All OS' are controlled by hardware vendors. Just look at Macs, they are switching to Intel processors because IBM wanted more money for their PPC chips, and now they have to redistribute all their software to support the different architecture. So binary drivers don't cause Linux to be controlled by hardware vendors, hardware causes it. And thank your lucky starts that nvidia have provided such good Linux support over the years, it is much easier for them to just turn around and say "Bugger off and use vesa". Yes, vesa, because they wrote part of nv.

markzzzsmith · 2006-08-27 22:49:02

On the contrary, he has every right to. It just doesn't make him any more correct of his rants any less vacuous.

Call it a rant if you like, if that helps you deal with your open source cognative dissonance.

If I receive something for free and in good faith, and choose to use it, then I think I should support its principles. If I disagree with those principles, then I would not use this thing, out of respect for their right to hold those principles. I use Linux, so I support its principles and will defend them.

Quite frankly, I don't care if people choose to run binary modules, as long as it doesn't effect me. The security and other problems that they'll suffer from will be theirs to deal with, not mine. However, this time, their choice has effected me, because it seems to have delayed X.org 7.1, and I'm not running any binary modules. The Linux community has been on a slippery slope since binary modules were created, and now that I've been effected, even though I don't and have never run any in the past, that's a strong sign to me that the community has started slipping into vendor control.

chrismortimore · 2006-08-27 23:00:48

markzzzsmith wrote:

However, this time, their choice has effected me, because it seems to have delayed X.org 7.1, and I'm not running any binary modules. The Linux community has been on a slippery slope since binary modules were created, and now that I've been effected, even though I don't and have never run any in the past, that's a strong sign to me that the community has started slipping into vendor control.

Well, that is down to distribution choice, not the binary drivers. As I said earlier, other distributions have offered xorg-7.1 for ages in testing, so you could use them.

Dusty · 2006-08-27 23:01:04

So sorry, guys, I don't care about this thread and hadn't realized it had slipped into a flamewar.

The question is moot, neither side is going to agree, further discussion will simply aggravate the issue. Xorg 7.1 will be ready when its ready, and for those who think that's not soon enough, Judd has supplied us with the excellent Arch Build System for making our own packages.

Locking.

Dusty

Arch Linux

#26 2006-08-26 19:28:00

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#27 2006-08-26 19:34:57

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#28 2006-08-26 22:21:11

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#29 2006-08-26 22:42:48

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#30 2006-08-26 22:49:19

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#31 2006-08-27 00:24:32

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#32 2006-08-27 00:43:50

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#33 2006-08-27 03:19:15

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#34 2006-08-27 11:13:49

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#35 2006-08-27 11:59:30

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#36 2006-08-27 13:17:10

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#37 2006-08-27 15:44:24

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#38 2006-08-27 17:15:54

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#39 2006-08-27 18:27:27

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#40 2006-08-27 21:11:59

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#41 2006-08-27 21:12:27

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#42 2006-08-27 21:40:27

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#43 2006-08-27 21:54:24

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#44 2006-08-27 22:08:52

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#45 2006-08-27 22:28:57

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#46 2006-08-27 22:49:02

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#47 2006-08-27 23:00:48

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#48 2006-08-27 23:01:04

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

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