The future of Arch Linux.

tlaloc · 2008-03-28 18:11:42

Mikko777 wrote:

Phrakture was not nice and said users can fuck off, tpowa left.

As far as I recall, it was another dev who said something like "users can fuck off" (accidentially, a dev who can be very helpful on other topics). Phrakture was quite insulting with his "Great news"-message, which will not win him an award for diplomacy/leadership. That is why tpowa is pissed-off. He hasn't left (yet), he is just pissed-off (understandably).

Please get the facts straight if you choose to discuss other people's behaviour in a public forum.

perseus · 2008-03-28 18:41:55

tlaloc :

He hasn't left (yet), he is just pissed-off (understandably).

(1) tpoa has contributed more than I could ever hope, in my wildest dreams, to bring to this distro. What I say next must be read in light of the respect I give him for that.

(2) If you look at what he has said in the devs' ML concerning his semi-departure, it is not very impressive is it? He begins by saying:

HI Life changed here recently, new full time job starts, marrying and such
stuff.
Feel free to update any of my adopted packages, or just orphan them that
someone else can take care of them.

This is not a resignation on a point of principle, which he would have been fully entitled to do, and which would have earned him further respect. Rather, it comes down to, "just look how you will miss me when I am not around for some long but indeterminate time". This is a sulk, - the tactic of a 5 year old.

He then waited for others to respond by regretting his departure, before weighing in with his substantive reasons in a subsequent post - but even then he left the door open for return if others changed their ways. More childishness.

I repeat I respect tpoa's work and intelligence. I actually find his comment "Now im flamed for every little patch, which helps some people to get their hardware work properly" to be quite touching. It comes from the heart and states his postion. The fact that I consider that position to be wrong (because it is the slippery slope to a dumbed-down distro), is unimportant. The way in which he is handling the situation is, however and in my personal opinion, deeply unimpressive.

tlaloc · 2008-03-28 18:59:49

How am I to judge tpowa's decisions? And who are you?

I have taken some pains so as to not mention additional names (beyond those already discussed), because I don't think that ad hominem-attacks will get us anywhere. If you're not happy with his decisions, go on and tell him in private. To discuss this in a public forum is not only bad style, it is - well, childish?

Mr.Elendig · 2008-03-28 19:04:04

I hate making totaly usless posts but

^what he said^
+1

finferflu · 2008-03-28 19:09:32

What's going on people? I'm completely clueless about everything you're talking about...

Cerebral · 2008-03-28 19:13:42

Oy vey, what a kerfuffle. Here's my 2 cents.

1) I don't blame tpowa for being angry.
2) I don't blame Aaron for wanting to set down some solid policy, and figure out what Arch should be.
3) I like the idea of a "lower-level" distro, targeted at "higher-level" users.
4) Arch will live on.

However, let's refrain from personal attacks, and other childish things, shall we? I've only read half this thread, because frankly I don't _want_ to read the rest - let's all act like adults.

dolby · 2008-03-28 19:15:46

finferflu wrote:

What's going on people? I'm completely clueless about everything you're talking about...

read my first post on this thread

fwojciec · 2008-03-28 19:15:54

finferflu wrote:

What's going on people? I'm completely clueless about everything you're talking about...

Reading dev-public mail list can be a bit like soap opera every once in a while.

Misfit138 · 2008-03-28 19:23:00

Cerebral wrote:

However, let's refrain from personal attacks, and other childish things, shall we? I've only read half this thread, because frankly I don't _want_ to read the rest - let's all act like adults.

Agreed. The mods are watching this thread very closely, lets not let it slip off into flame-land.
Publicly judging devs is just pointless, especially when based upon a mailing list. Furthermore, comparing ANYONE to a '5-year-old' on these forums is unacceptable.

dyscoria · 2008-03-28 19:31:34

OK so back on topic. "The future of Arch Linux" you ask? Well 20 years from now, on 28/03/2028, all computers with arch installed on them will sprout legs and devour the worlds entire stockpile of tacos. Man will die from starvation. Arch will die because there are no developers and no community.

The end.

Last edited by dyscoria (2008-03-28 19:32:24)

Sjoden · 2008-03-28 19:57:02

Just KISS please.

finferflu · 2008-03-28 19:57:50

@ dolby
I have followed the link in your first post, but there was no reference to what's going on here.

@ fwojciec
I can't find the thread...

Anyway, I hope I don't need to worry too much and that this will be settled soon.

perseus · 2008-03-28 20:12:15

tlaloc:

tHow am I to judge tpowa's decisions? And who are you?

We are both just people, and like all free observers, we are entitled to form a view about the public behaviour of other people (all of them). It would be odd if did not both form such views many times each day in many different contexts. It is my belief that by posting on a publicly accessible ML, tpowa was, inescapably, inviting every reader to form such a view. We are both entitled to express the views we have formed in this forum unless moderated off. You can add a pejorative connotation to that by describing it as "judging" if you wish, but I am no-one's judge.

phrakture · 2008-03-28 20:35:44

I am a big fan of public accountability. You are all more then welcome to make whatever judgment you wish about me and my behavior. This is why I originally pushed to get us a public mailing list.

Just keep in mind, however, that we still have a private discussion list, and many things you have not been privy to have happened there. I would gladly make them all public, but that is not my decision to make.

finferflu · 2008-03-28 20:54:45

I take back my questions, as one of the users here kindly clarified everything to me.

tlaloc · 2008-03-28 21:06:33

Fine - we all seem to be in agreement. Would please someone just CLOSE this shitty thread?
I don't want to ready any further, too.

firewalker · 2008-03-28 22:07:58

Lots of interesting opinions. Many new questions and subjects have popped up.

Maybe things aren't so smooth as used to be between developers. Maybe It has to do with Arch's leadership change. I really don't know. I know that it potentially will have an impact to Arch as a total.

Last edited by firewalker (2008-03-28 22:19:46)

Dusty · 2008-03-28 22:08:26

tlaloc wrote:

Fine - we all seem to be in agreement. Would please someone just CLOSE this shitty thread?
I don't want to ready any further, too.

You are free not to read any thread you like. While the thread and topic are a bit nitty gritty dirty, it is still a stellar example of how open minded and ready to discuss (without flaming) most of the members of this community really are.

I'm not closing the thread as it is still on topic and some users may still feel the need to discuss. I can assure everyone that nobody needs to worry about Arch changing. Judd chose Aaron because he is a perfect example of the Arch Way as he originally defined it. The fact that Aaron is also incredibly stubborn means nobody's going to come between him and his (our) way. ;-)

Dusty

Sjoden · 2008-03-28 22:28:13

Dusty wrote:

tlaloc wrote:
Fine - we all seem to be in agreement. Would please someone just CLOSE this shitty thread?
I don't want to ready any further, too.
You are free not to read any thread you like. While the thread and topic are a bit nitty gritty dirty, it is still a stellar example of how open minded and ready to discuss (without flaming) most of the members of this community really are.
I'm not closing the thread as it is still on topic and some users may still feel the need to discuss. I can assure everyone that nobody needs to worry about Arch changing. Judd chose Aaron because he is a perfect example of the Arch Way as he originally defined it. The fact that Aaron is also incredibly stubborn means nobody's going to come between him and his (our) way. ;-)
Dusty

Reading through this thread was a little worrisome, but that is nice to hear. I'm sure Aaron does the best he can and will make the right decisions, which is more than most of us can do, and probably doesn't get the amount of thanks he deserves.

eerok · 2008-03-28 23:40:51

Dusty wrote:

Judd chose Aaron because he is a perfect example of the Arch Way as he originally defined it.

And I'm content with this.

Dusty wrote:

The fact that Aaron is also incredibly stubborn means nobody's going to come between him and his (our) way. ;-)

I'm content with this, too

I think that there's some panic over the possibility that Arch is changing and that this will accumulate over time into a dramatic change that no one who likes Arch for what it is now would want.

I don't think the panic is justified -- I still see the sanity and clarity of purpose that attracted me to Arch -- but it's still nice to be free to voice one's views on the matter.

zamolxis · 2008-03-29 01:06:15

I actually came back to Arch after playing with a few other "boring" distros.

Yes, one day I "broke" my system with a pacman -Syu - and I "left" annoyed! But now I'm back, because I missed arch ... I missed actually having something exciting on my computer, an OS that you could easily customize as you wish, where you can quickly install and try the newst stuff, etc

Yes I'll probably manage to "break" it again at some point. But ... so what? I keep everything on separate partitions (/home, /var, /shared files, etc.) . My "important stuff" is also backed up. An accident would be just "a bit of fun", a chance to learn from mistakes ...

finferflu · 2008-03-29 06:33:59

That makes me think of a new motto:
Arch Linux, the interactive distro!

It is a distro that requires and only responds to the user's interaction. I think it's something to keep in mind. So it's not that upgrades just break things, most of the times they require the user to take action.

dolby · 2008-03-29 10:25:04

Dusty wrote:

I'm not closing the thread as it is still on topic and some users may still feel the need to discuss. I can assure everyone that nobody needs to worry about Arch changing. Judd chose Aaron because he is a perfect example of the Arch Way as he originally defined it. The fact that Aaron is also incredibly stubborn means nobody's going to come between him and his (our) way. ;-)
Dusty

I dont think that anyone from those who claim that the direction Archlinux is going is wrong ever questioned prakture's leading position. Even at this point hes one of the few people discussing. Others dont even bother,
Only an ignorrant would claim such.

firewalker · 2008-03-29 11:31:33

I don't think that the direction is wrong. There can be different ways towards a direction. You can choose a toll free narrow street. It is toll free but there is some pits that could harm you vehicle. The other way is the highway. There might be tolls but your vehicle is as safe it can be.

There could be a tool building and testing the distro for broken packages every night for example. Something like revdep-rebuild would be useful too for checking linking consistency of the system. There is no need sacrificing blending edge.

Last edited by firewalker (2008-03-29 11:33:32)

anykey · 2008-03-29 12:55:15

However much this comment is going to be appreciated -- my past experience with Arch marks this distro as the one I am most willing to live with.

Yes, Arch has changed. While I certainly enjoy looking back to the time when Arch was a relatively small (can you say underdog?) distribution, I have stayed with it, simply because I personally think that pacman and abs form a very strong yet easy to use team and the configuration files layout makes sense to me. It does what I want, that alone is reason to use it, and so far it has done a terrific job with that. Most problems I have with Arch are easily mended (and as a matter of fact, emerge just from my style of use, such as own kernels and hating initrd and so on -- and from the fact that I sometimes work when I am tired).

The primary rule of software development is that the one constant you can rely on is change. This does not imply whether the change is good or bad.

Edit: The primary rule merely states that things which do not change are either:
- rightly done (meeting current demands) OR
- degrading (no longer meeting demands) OR
- likely to change in the future (facing new demands).

This goes well with the secondary rule: Expect the unexpected (but that's mostly related to demands from users or customers).

Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by anykey (2008-03-29 13:10:56)

Arch Linux

#76 2008-03-28 18:11:42

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#77 2008-03-28 18:41:55

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#78 2008-03-28 18:59:49

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#79 2008-03-28 19:04:04

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#80 2008-03-28 19:09:32

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#81 2008-03-28 19:13:42

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#82 2008-03-28 19:15:46

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#83 2008-03-28 19:15:54

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#84 2008-03-28 19:23:00

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#85 2008-03-28 19:31:34

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#86 2008-03-28 19:57:02

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#87 2008-03-28 19:57:50

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#88 2008-03-28 20:12:15

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#89 2008-03-28 20:35:44

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#90 2008-03-28 20:54:45

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#91 2008-03-28 21:06:33

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#92 2008-03-28 22:07:58

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#93 2008-03-28 22:08:26

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#94 2008-03-28 22:28:13

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#95 2008-03-28 23:40:51

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#96 2008-03-29 01:06:15

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#97 2008-03-29 06:33:59

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#98 2008-03-29 10:25:04

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#99 2008-03-29 11:31:33

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

#100 2008-03-29 12:55:15

Re: The future of Arch Linux.

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