Arch Linux

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

I personally couldn't care less if there was a GUI for pacman. In the long run though, it might attract users that don't want to learn how to edit text-based configuration files either... where does it end?

It is impossible to have a normaluser-friendly and poweruser-friendly distro both. (Then there's the luser-friendly distros but let's not get on that topic. )

Dusty

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sarah31

Member

From: Middle of Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 2,975

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

the point i am trying to make is i don't care but the people who design these things usually are not around to field the questions when the program breaks down and the unknowledgable user has to come here and ask questions. it is usually the people like me or xentac that then have to answer questions because the people who design these apps are not around to field the questions.

what happens to if the user who designed this application leaves arch? then one of the developers may be forced to take over this contribution. it goes on and on. personally i would rather see developers spend their time on making existing packages bullet proof than having to worry about a package that someone may force upon them.

it divides the resources resources which people are readily bitching about at every opportunity.

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AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

standsolid

Member

From: Carlsbad, CA

Registered: 2004-05-23

Posts: 54

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

@dusty's post
what about the windows power-user?  that's basically the audience I'm thinking of.  Not completely a luser... just unfamiliar.

@sarah31's first post
Thanks for your lovely comments and compare/contrast between KDE and gtk.  I will also make those images links ASAP. 

... it is usually the people like me or xentac that then have to answer questions because the people who design these apps are not around to field the questions...

What happens when you or xentac anren't around to answer those questions? Does that leave the developer of a dumb GUI app to answer questions about bugs in packages?

what happens to if the user who designed this application leaves arch? then one of the developers may be forced to take over this contribution. it goes on and on.

What about when apeiro decides that rpm is the way to go and deserts pacman/arch development?  If something has such a following, and there is a need for it -- I'm convinced that a developer(s) will come around and maintain that something.  This is in the spirit of OSS, right?  If I released version 1.0 of this app under GNU and a bus hit me the next day, the app would live on if people saw it useful, and someone decided to take action.

personally i would rather see developers spend their time on making existing packages bullet proof than having to worry about a package that someone may force upon them.

it divides the resources resources which people are readily bitching about at every opportunity.

So you would have it so taht developers could only work on creating solid packages? My interest is in UI design and ease-of-use.  I am not being paid to work on this, I am spending my own time because it's something I wnat to do.  Why should you force me to work on packaging software when I can't even do that yet? (proof)

The community needs all kind of developers and all kinds of people.  I for one do NOT want users to be forced to use my app.  This is a front-end.  optional only.

and don't forget kids -- A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

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ewwwwww Arch is all gooey

sarah31

Member

From: Middle of Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 2,975

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

well for one thing you are not a developer. second, if i was running a distro, i would be sure to enforce stability over cutting edge (not that arch doesn't). If i asked certain individuals to be package maintainers i would expect and demand that they do that first and if there is nothing pending then they could work all they want on other arch projects. the developers that i asked on as developers of the arch specific code (pacman, makepkg, init scripts, installers, etc) would do that first then deal with whatever else. those who i ask on as documentation writers and maintainers i would expect to work on those.

even when i was a package maintainer i thought there was too many probems with maintainers not taking care of their packages before they disappeared for a few months or whatever. then you have jason who, being active in the community, feels obligated to pick up the loose ends.

i tend to think like dusty having a gui for such a simple tool is a harbinger of dark times. with more gui people can get lazy, the more the user clicks and feels the illusion of "ease of use" the more they will demand it. the more that the underpinnings of any OS is hidden the more insecure it becomes and kludged.

take bluefish for example. it used to be a nice simple app with few dependencies now look:

sarah@flightypuffin:~> sudo pacman -S bluefish
Password:

Targets: aspell-0.50.5-2 portmap-5beta-9 fam-2.6.10-3 cdparanoia-9.8-3
         docbook-xml-4.1.2-2 libxslt-1.1.6-1 scrollkeeper-0.3.14-1
         gnome-common-2.4.0-3 orbit2-2.10.1-1 libbonobo-2.6.0-1 gconf-2.6.1-1
         samba-3.0.4-2 shared-mime-info-0.14-1 gnome-mime-data-2.4.1-3
         gnome-vfs-2.6.1.1-1 bluefish-0.13-1

Proceed with upgrade? [Y/n] n

anyway .. enough of this thread as i can't seem to get through to the folks i may as well say right now I will not answer any questions related to any frontend for pacman. i expect the "developer" to do that.

oh and so you know i worked, for free, on arch too and I currently am working on a website for a company for free (i can get services from them if i wanted but even if i do it will never compansate for the time I put in). so save your whining for someone who cares and you implied comments of lack of honor on my part ...well forget it it isn't worth it.

---

AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

i3839

Member

Registered: 2004-02-04

Posts: 1,185

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

i tend to think like dusty having a gui for such a simple tool is a harbinger of dark times.

That's rather exaggerated and way too pessimistic, don't you think? I agree that there are much more useful things to make, but if they enjoy making it, let them have the fun. Besides, the Arch website does already have certain features, and a site looks awfully alot like a GUI, so just see the Pacman GUI as a offline version of the site with some extra functions, or something like that.

with more gui people can get lazy, the more the user clicks and feels the illusion of "ease of use" the more they will demand it.

So you think a GUI is better than a CLI? It must be after reading what you say, because when doing exactly the same in different ways, and one ways is somehow easier, then that way must be better, because easier is better than more difficult, and also implies simpler, and we all love KISS.

I don't agree with you that the GUI version would be somehow easier to use than the CLI version though, so I don't agree with your conclusions either. CLI and GUI are different. CLI is often superior if you know what you want to do, GUI can be better in giving ordened information, e.g. keeping a lot options and settings manageable.

the more that the underpinnings of any OS is hidden the more insecure it becomes and kludged.

Perhaps it's me, but I don't think that a package manager is really part of the underpinnings of an OS. With the lib version of Pacman both the CLI and the GUI are the package manager, so both are hiding the same then. So your statement may be true in general, but in this specific case it isn't relevant.

What I don't like about the GUI is that it doesn't use the space very efficiently. I would put that block with Install and the settings in the left bottom corner, below the column with packages. That way there is no big unused block of space, and resizing behaves better. I would also make the checkboxes smaller and don't make the space between the settings so big. Either that, of put the options next to eachother and the Install button so that it's a horizontal block. Perhaps it makes more sense to make a seperate button for Update Database. Then again, it isn't finished yet, and misses a lot options/features, so perhaps it's too early for nitpicking.

neri

Forum Fellow

From: Victoria, Canada

Registered: 2003-05-04

Posts: 553

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

take bluefish for example. it used to be a nice simple app with few dependencies now look:

sarah@flightypuffin:~> sudo pacman -S bluefish
Password:

Targets: aspell-0.50.5-2 portmap-5beta-9 fam-2.6.10-3 cdparanoia-9.8-3
         docbook-xml-4.1.2-2 libxslt-1.1.6-1 scrollkeeper-0.3.14-1
         gnome-common-2.4.0-3 orbit2-2.10.1-1 libbonobo-2.6.0-1 gconf-2.6.1-1
         samba-3.0.4-2 shared-mime-info-0.14-1 gnome-mime-data-2.4.1-3
         gnome-vfs-2.6.1.1-1 bluefish-0.13-1

Proceed with upgrade? [Y/n] n

Hi sarah,

not offending, but bluefish got that bloated since gome-vfs got involved
which enables online editing via ftp. Which is quite handy. So this is not a
gui issue. But I have to agree, to bring in a little feature, a little eye candy
or whatever and paying with a huge load of dependencies sucks. Especially
since the features could be involved via simpler libraries (neon maybe, not
sure).

bye neri

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Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

@dusty's post
what about the windows power-user?  that's basically the audience I'm thinking of.  Not completely a luser... just unfamiliar.

And therefore they should stay unfamiliar?

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RTF

Member

Registered: 2004-04-26

Posts: 27

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

It's almost like a different language when you go between the GUI and the CLI. Of course allowing the GUI in one place does imply that the rest of the install, start-to-finish should do the same, but I sincerely think they can coexist(with the command line staying dominant of course). I've seen app installs that successfully let you have it both ways, so it doesn't seem out of reach for a distro to try too.

OTOH I still think both interfaces are inferior to hotkeys. With those, finding tasks you want to perform is equal in difficulty to the GUI(assuming an onscreen description), yet all commands can be run at a single keystroke per item, rather than many words as is the case in a CLI, or mouse movement and clicking, which is harder to perform than keypresses and takes a LOT more developer work.

The only deficiency is when you have tons of possible choices, but none of the three interfaces have really solved that.

Maybe I should write a proof-of-concept hotkey shell to prove their superiority :twisted: The alphabet could run CLI programs, and the top row of 1-9, 0, +/-, and backspace would do file browsing...selections with space, page browsing with pgup/pgdown...well now I have something to go work on

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

OTOH I still think both interfaces are inferior to hotkeys.

Here here!!!!

Maybe I should write a proof-of-concept hotkey shell to prove their superiority :twisted: The alphabet could run CLI programs, and the top row of 1-9, 0, +/-, and backspace would do file browsing...selections with space, page browsing with pgup/pgdown...well now I have something to go work on

You might use ion window manager, pywm, or plwm as a base. I'd be interested in researching this as well.

One problem with hotkeys is remembering what keys do what. I've never had a problem with it, but my parents like point and click because they don't have to remember commands or key combinations.

That's why programs like pine make sense to me, the hotkey options are available. Then again, the standard stupid-ugly menubar also has visible hotkey support...

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standsolid

Member

From: Carlsbad, CA

Registered: 2004-05-23

Posts: 54

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

jeez this thread is distracting!

@dusty's post
what about the windows power-user?  that's basically the audience I'm thinking of.  Not completely a luser... just unfamiliar.

And therefore they should stay unfamiliar?

Extremely good point -- I would hope that they would learn, and not be completely be a simple windows user in a linux world.  Maybe an app like this would be more transitional? 

@i3839:
thank you for your constructive remarks.  I Intend on using all space where it makes sence, and this app is still in planning stage. Nitpicking is great, even at such an early stage!  thanks for providing examples of how it could be done better! --Also I am a fan of hotkeys and will use them wherever it is possible (Good GUI design always has hotkeys)

@sarah31:
Just a few things...
Firt of all, You are right, I am not an arch  developer.   Thanks for pointing that out -- but I didn't quite se the relevence in such a statement. If you are reading this thread, maybe you could make it clear as to what the intentions of this phrase was.

Secondly, I'm sorry that you feel so strongly against this app.  I hope that you will see it is (will be...) not only as a useless toy, but a powerful alternative to using the command line tools already provided.  Not only that, but it will bring user to theis great distro and maybe even harvest some new package maintainers.  Hey -- I'm planning on also making an easy-to-use GUI to make new packages (once I learn the syntax), what do you think?

Finally, I do know you worked on arch, and I assumed it was without pay.  in fact, in an earlier post -- i believed I even thanked you for your time. I hope there is no hard feelings here.  I didn't mean to insult you or imply a "lack of honor".  If anything in my posts was taken to be a personal attack, I sincerely apologize because this is a discussion, not an argument -- sometimes I can say things the wrong way. This is of no fault to you. If, by chance, you are referring to the last line of my post, that was a SImpsons quote, and was meant to lighten the mood.

My opinion:
This thread should probably not discuss the new app so much as the argument of GUI tools vs. CLI tools.  Maybe I should make a new thread with announcements / feedback for my app?

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ewwwwww Arch is all gooey

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

Hey -- I'm planning on also making an easy-to-use GUI to make new packages (once I learn the syntax), what do you think?

I'd be absolutely amazed if you could pull this off. Every PKGBUILD has to be a custom-tailored bash script that suits the package being installed. If you're lucky, the build function is just ./configure, make, make install and you hardly have to alter the default.

I suppose you could use textfields for each of the variable entries in the package build, but it's so much easier to edit using vim than those retarded text widgets available in all the window toolkits.

The problem with GUI is NOT that GUI is a bad thing, it's just that the desktop metaphor and WIMP toolkits are poorly designed. CLI has about a thousand disadvantages. GUI has ten thousand.

As I think I said around page 2 (but who's reading that anymore? :-D), this is an active area of interest to me. Efficient use of a computer is important. Current GUIs are inefficient but synthesizable. CLI is not as learnable, but is more efficient. However, neither is optimal.

Dusty

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jlvsimoes

Member

From: portugal

Registered: 2002-12-23

Posts: 392

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

kiss

---

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GU/ d- s: a- C L U P+ L+++ E--- W+
N 0+ K- W-- !O !M V-- PS+ PE- V++ PGP T 5 Z+ R* TV+ B+
DI-- D- G-- e-- h! r++ z+ z*
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

RTF

Member

Registered: 2004-04-26

Posts: 27

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

You might use ion window manager, pywm, or plwm as a base. I'd be interested in researching this as well.

One problem with hotkeys is remembering what keys do what. I've never had a problem with it, but my parents like point and click because they don't have to remember commands or key combinations.

That's why programs like pine make sense to me, the hotkey options are available. Then again, the standard stupid-ugly menubar also has visible hotkey support...

Well I have a bit of a plan now...I guess this'll have to be moved to a proper topic of its own, and next time I post it'll be out of this thread, but anyway. I'll start with a Python implementation of "hosh" - the HOtkey SHell, using curses and XML files containing metadata about programs(description, options, required parameters, input types...); this implementation will try only to be a supplement to existing interfaces, and it will be the testing ground for anything coming later. Starting from a WM is more restrictive than what I was thinking of, since this isn't an interface that needs more than text descriptions. Technically it doesn't even need curses, but that will make it easier on the eyes...or do we want a "matrix look" from running 100s of commands per minute and making the console scroll like crazy

Like in programs such as pine or pico/nano, everything you need is going to be kept onscreen to ease the learning process(a minimalist look for the power-users can come later) File browsing will use pages of 10 choices each, using the numbers....I believe that is simpler than A-Z selection(hard to map screen->keyboard) and cursor-based selection(too much arrow-hitting). Where the metadata comes in is when you run a program and it needs arguments...then you get all the options etc. shown instantly. This effectively merges documentation with input and cuts down on learning time, though it won't be perfect(can't doc regexps for example). I haven't worked out how program output will work, but I already have a preliminary metadata format figured out...and it can be parsed into Python datatypes, so progress is coming

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

You've really tweaked my interest. If only I had the time to work on this... I'm tempted to offer anyway, but I can't. I'm working on a 3D interface that I'm not truly interested in, but hey, I get paid... I think hotkey shell is much more intelligent, although I also think multiple windows onscreen would be useful... (program ion in lua... the querylib can do a lot of what yo usuggest)

Dusty

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noprob

Member

From: Podunk,WV.

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 18

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

I personally couldn't care less if there was a GUI for pacman. In the long run though, it might attract users that don't want to learn how to edit text-based configuration files either

                                         :?:
I myself would really like to know how to effectively "edit" any files from console.
I have used nano as it is a very basic program.
Please be advised I am a newbie in training.
All that I know of concerning arch linux is to do the cd install(full,arch-6.0),then pacman loads/installs grabs the updated [pkgs] I've selected from the internet,lilo configures flawlessly,I reboot up to console.
Thereafter I am totally dumbfounded.
I have approx. 10 pages of info. I believe is useful on hardcopy.
I do the pacman commands I've read in this great forum,but alas recieve a non functioning network and am fairly ignorant on the process to use any type of editing program to view/configure any file(s) in question.
I'm sure once I am able to view/edit any files in question to allow modules,arrays and such to load up at bootup I will be set.(hopefully)
Please Reply.
                                         :?:

xerxes2

Member

From: Malmoe, Sweden

Registered: 2004-04-23

Posts: 1,249

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

hello noprob,
I suggest you use vi. It's an editor you run from console. just do a su and you can edit files as root.
I learned vi at www.mandrakelinux.com, click on doc and then on commandline guide. There is a chapter explaining basic vi commands.

To get started you type $ vi /etc/rc.conf  , then type $ i  , and start editing.

good luck.   

Edit. To save type "Escape :wq enter" faster than a threetoed sloth says bah. There you go.

---

arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

dpb

Member

From: Cyperspace?

Registered: 2004-04-11

Posts: 231

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

IMHO nano is the best console editor (for basic stuff like config files).
It's small and easy to use. ctrl + o to save, ctrl + x to quit. Or even more simple, just ctrl + x and it'll ask if you wanna save.

dpb

Member

From: Cyperspace?

Registered: 2004-04-11

Posts: 231

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

Edit. To save type "Escape :wq enter" faster than a threetoed sloth says bah. There you go.

I can't see how that can be fast... With nano it's much faster...  :?
(for my keyboard atleast... dunno how funky yours is )

noprob

Member

From: Podunk,WV.

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 18

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

I would have prefered a gui pacman compared to the install I now have which is a cd copy to hd-install,but I can now update this older version of arch & learn the inerds as I did my best on winDOwS.
also I am most interested in a minimalist install which I shall start the gutting process as I learn this well put together distro.
I would also like to very much thank all those here in this community that helped me learn as much as I have so far.
interesting=ion window manager & consoles.I might actually think myself worthy of being an archer.
regards to all

an unworthy newbie wanna be archer

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

Edit. To save type "Escape :wq enter" faster than a threetoed sloth says bah. There you go.

ZZ<enter>

is faster (dunno if its available in vi, but it's in vim)

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Zephirias

Member

From: Pennsylvania, USA

Registered: 2004-04-26

Posts: 179

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

IMHO nano is the best console editor (for basic stuff like config files).
It's small and easy to use. ctrl + o to save, ctrl + x to quit. Or even more simple, just ctrl + x and it'll ask if you wanna save.

I couldn't agree more. <3 nano.

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"Technically, you would only need one time traveler convention."

xerxes2

Member

From: Malmoe, Sweden

Registered: 2004-04-23

Posts: 1,249

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

IMHO nano is the best console editor (for basic stuff like config files).
It's small and easy to use. ctrl + o to save, ctrl + x to quit. Or even more simple, just ctrl + x and it'll ask if you wanna save.

I couldn't agree more. <3 nano.

Vi is for real men and nano is for kids.

The legend goes like this. First Billie Boy wrote vi and after he done that he wrote the BSD OS. 

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arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

punkrockguy318

Member

From: New Jersey

Registered: 2004-02-15

Posts: 711

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

Vi is awesome, but one thing I hate is reaching for the esc key.  But, I've grown to live with it, and I use vim and gvim for everything.

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If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.   1 Corinthians 13:2

IceRAM

Member

From: Bucharest, Romania

Registered: 2004-03-04

Posts: 772

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

...But, I've grown to live with it, and I use vim and gvim for everything.

After some time... you'll find that it's not that great wh:en you try to exit other editors with "<esc>:wq<enter>"

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:: / my web presence

Dusty

Schwag Merchant

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-18

Posts: 5,986

Website

Re: GUI pacman? [update: new screenshots on page 7]

again, dunno about vi; I assume its the same, but in vim you can use ctrl-C instead of escape. a little quicker.

You could also remap some other key to the escape key (only in vim) using the noremap option. I use alt-; instead of escape... much quicker on a dvorak keyboard than even ctrl-C.

Dusty

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