Archlinux Leadership

Misbah · 2008-05-04 21:39:22

daf666 wrote:

neotuli wrote:
daf666 wrote:
If there is a place for this, its here, and every opinion counts.
Did you even read my post? Maybe you didn't understand it. See what I was saying that in this thing we like to call "the world", lots of people's opinions don't count, because they do absolutely nothing to make them count. In fact, when you really come down to it, most people's opinions don't count at all.
Dont get me wrong, I agree with you 100 percent.
Jada should open bugs or submit official enhancement request.
But discussion and criticism is always a good thing, noobs should be educated not be shun..

Firstly, I can't even understand what the specific complaint is, just that restructuring is in order and that the volunteers need to stop volunteering and go full-time unpaid.

Secondly, there is no solution or suggestions offered. How to restructure, why restructuring is in order, etc. Maybe it's listed somewhere in the myriad of posts but it's not tactful enough to be taken as a proposal and understood.

Thirdly, there is no proposed action on part of the OP. What he himself will do to remedy the situation, weather its as big as a fork, or small as a bug report or an enhancement request.

There is a fine line between discussion/constructive criticism and complaining, and this one's on the wrong side.

Actions speak louder than words. Too many of these "cater to my needs" posts.

I agree with the earlier poster, this thread should be mod-squashed.

Last edited by Misbah (2008-05-04 21:41:45)

skottish · 2008-05-04 23:26:19

Disclaimer:

I haven't actually read this thread and honestly I don't care...

Stop. Please, everyone, stop. There's nothing here. The thread was dead before it even started. Stop. Please!?!?!?!?!??!?

cardinals_fan · 2008-05-04 23:52:54

JaDa wrote:

I was talking about leading the organization. Can one person leading a organization from the size from Archlinux. This is not a "secound life game", and I personally think Archlinux need a leader how has time "full time" and not "part time"! In my eyes Archlinux need 1-2 Co-leaders better Archlinux need to build a foundation. Best example are from Gentoo

YES! Arch should definitely emulate Gentoo's leadership policies. They've worked out so well... [/sarcasm]

EDIT: Sorry Skottish, didn't see that post.

Last edited by cardinals_fan (2008-05-04 23:53:45)

Allan · 2008-05-04 23:59:28

Well, I'll step in again. I've just woken up so my rant will probably not be as impressive. You really need to build up the ability to rant over the day....

JaDa wrote:

You guys focus only on development, abs and packages, not what it really needs.

I don't understand this. What else is there? Also, a distro needs a strong base to build on or else it will fall over. Pacman and ABS make arch unique and are the base that Arch stands on. Putting a lot of development time into the is entirely justified.

JaDa wrote:

I am talking about that developmers cooking his own soup. The Archlinux community need to be open, need learn to share, and need to work in one direktion under one rule.

I have a ring that is suppose to help ruling them all. Seriously, the Arch community is open. Each developer has his own interests and that is the reason they were bought onto the team. If someone who only has an interest in maintaining the infrastructure was suddenly told "We are done with that now, just focus on updating packages", what do you think their response would be? Sure, we need to combine their interests in a productive way and that is happening at the moment. That is what leadership is. Making sure everyone can work on their project in the most productive way for the team as a whole. If you read the arch-dev-public list, you can see points where Aaron has identified problems and taken steps to rectify them.

JaDa wrote:

The reason why I am using Archlinux was, rolling release, stable, and fast up to date applications. Judd is gone, and now the fast up to date is going slower and slower. How we can change this?

Follow the steps in my second post. The more people who volunteer, the more time the devs have to do their work. Simple as that. The only other option is to bring on more devs but that position isn't just raffled off and be thankful for that.

JaDa wrote:

Then the mailiong liste, well I need "unstable" another I don't need "unstable", etc. question why and for what was unstable created? Because we have "testing" right we don't need "unstable"?

Testing and unstable have different purposes. Testing is for software you want to test before it makes the official repos. Unstable is for unstable software that won't ever make the official repos but may be useful to the community. There is a currently adiscussion about removing the unstable repo because it is quite underused.

JaDa wrote:

It is the leaders job, he is the captain, he must give the direktion. The new leader is asking to much the developmers, what is to do, he is not present enough, and after 6 mounth of his leadership I think, things are going wrong.

I have seen the leaders presence on the forums and mailing lists for almost all of the last six months. Sure, he is a little less active this past week due to shifting, but I think we can let him away with that... He has emailed the arch mailing lists 93 times in the last 30days. He is the most active person on the forums ever, have 2500 (50%) more posts than the second most active person. If I was him, I doubt I would respond to this thread anyway...

JaDa wrote:

I am not talking about, Archlinux need another leader, I am talking about how Archlinux can get a better strukture. But I see some of the stupid comments from some User, ...... !

What do you propose here? It is fine to see a problem a propose a solution. The problem is that your solution is too vague. What do you mean structure? We have a leader and project leads who are all doing their job. As far as I can tell, your main problem is that the rolling release is slowing down. Stopping coding for pacman or AUR in order to move devs to updating packages is not going to help the distro... You may think these tools are perfect, but check the bug tracker! Also, I'd say some devs might reject the idea. When you volunteer to do something, you don't want to be told that you no longer are allowed to do what you were happy spending your free time doing. If that happens, people move on. That would only make your problem worse.

As I have said, the only way I can see to give the devs more time to update packages is to help out where you can. I especially recommend bug-squashing. It is really satisfying to know that your distro has less bugs because of the work you put in. Even, if you just asked for the bug report to be closed because it is no longer a problem, the devs don't have to spend that time trying to replicate it themselves.

JaDa · 2008-05-05 00:08:51

The thing is, that you guys don't get it.
Example: helixplayer 1.0.8 in the community is "orphan"! The TU was step down to busy and ask in the mailing liste how will adopt his packages. This was days ago, I asked the TU's ober the mailing list, please move it to AUR then I can adopt this package and update it to 11.0.0.4052. Nobody moved his but and does it. Still today, I tried to adopt the package, No way I am not a TU. I am really thinking, not adopt packages anymore how I am using, I am thinking today maybe I delete all my packages in AUR how I am maintaining.
This is why I wrote before (posting #29 ), Archlinux need a new strukture, a Lead Engineer for "community/AUR" and for "development".

What I get are answers, like this one ......

catwell wrote:

JaDa, buy a webserver and create your own repo. If you want a structure and so on, go on and fork, it's free software after all, we'll see who'll follow.
Oh, and it's Reiser, not Reisser.

what did I wrote before, some idiot will write ....

skottish wrote:

Disclaimer:
I haven't actually read this thread and honestly I don't care...
Stop. Please, everyone, stop. There's nothing here. The thread was dead before it even started. Stop. Please!?!?!?!?!??!?

same here ....... if you don't read ......... but feel happy, you got a response

daf666 wrote:

Jada should open bugs or submit official enhancement request.
But discussion and criticism is always a good thing, noobs should be educated not be shun..

Yes, you are right, bug report .... how will fix the bugs! Much better if you have fix the packages where can you upload it?

Misbah wrote:

Firstly, I can't even understand what the specific complaint is, just that restructuring is in order and that the volunteers need to stop volunteering and go full-time unpaid.

That people how offer help, can't do it, because a developmer how own the package want take the help, and blocking it. This is the point. The smart answer I get I time ago was, "no developmer will risk to break his computer with a PKGBUILD from a unknow person". This let me thinking ...... there is something wrong. Now again, for what do we have then "unstable" and "testing" repos?
Did you got my point now?

Misbah wrote:

Secondly, there is no solution or suggestions offered. How to restructure, why restructuring is in order, etc. Maybe it's listed somewhere in the myriad of posts but it's not tactful enough to be taken as a proposal and understood.

My suggestion is to build work groups, user can join the groups and can update PKGBUILD and send to "unstable". If there is no Bug's then it can move quickly to stable. A Develpment-Leader can organize it for the core/extra packages.

For community and AUR, this must get organize in another way, but to be honest, I have no idea how to do it.

Misbah wrote:

There is a fine line between discussion/constructive criticism and complaining, and this one's on the wrong side.

I think some people will learn the differant when they get married and having childrens.

JaDa · 2008-05-05 00:19:37

Allan wrote:

Follow the steps in my second post. The more people who volunteer, the more time the devs have to do their work. Simple as that. The only other option is to bring on more devs but that position isn't just raffled off and be thankful for that.

You know I spend two days to build a new PKGBUILD for helixplayer. Few days ago I ask [aur-general] mailing liste, I like to adopt this orphan package. Today I tried again to adopt it. I can't adopt it I am not a TU/Developer and don't want to be a TU/Developer. Reason, I will only maintaining a Handfull packages, I like to help, but you guys don't take it. What I did, i trush my PKGBUILD build and say "kiss my ass"

The same thing is also going on with Clamav 0.93 in the [arch-public], there are Users how offering there help, Gebra posted his PKGBUILD for help, what else can people do if a developer sitting like a chicken on his eggs (packages), with no response

This is a criticism

Last edited by JaDa (2008-05-05 00:21:07)

Allan · 2008-05-05 00:32:40

JaDa wrote:

The thing is, that you guys don't get it.
Example: helixplayer 1.0.8 in the community is "orphan"! The TU was step down to busy and ask in the mailing liste how will adopt his packages. This was days ago, I asked the TU's ober the mailing list, please move it to AUR then I can adopt this package and update it to 11.0.0.4052. Nobody moved his but and does it. Still today, I tried to adopt the package, No way I am not a TU. I am really thinking, not adopt packages anymore how I am using, I am thinking today maybe I delete all my packages in AUR how I am maintaining.

Yes it is an orphan. We usually give other TUs a few days to adopt things before we move things to unsupported, and during that time your email would have been lost to many. In fact the only email I can find from you in the last month is about flashplayer. Anyway, you would think there is no rush to get this package into unsupported given it is not flagged out of date....

And if you want to, pack up your toys and leave, but don't delete AUR packages that you are done with, just orphan them. I bet you adopted some of them so it is not only your work you are deleting.

skottish wrote:

I haven't actually read this thread and honestly I don't care...

That is the second copy of this post I have seen and I actually agree with Jada that it is not productive in anyway. Threads die their natural death. If you are not contributing, don't post. There is already a very little signal to noise ratio in this thread.

Jada wrote:

That people how offer help, can't do it, because a developmer how own the package want take the help, and blocking it. This is the point. The smart answer I get I time ago was, "no developmer will risk to break his computer with a PKGBUILD from a unknow person". This let me thinking ...... there is something wrong. Now again, for what do we have then "unstable" and "testing" repos?
Did you got my point now?

I can remember this and you are telling the story slightly wrong. A dev will take a PKGBUILD from an unknown person. They are easy to verify for safeness. A dev won't take a binary package from an unknown person. I can give you a binary and tell you it was built with a particular PKGBUILD, but you really have no way of know that.

Jada wrote:

My suggestion is to build work groups, user can join the groups and can update PKGBUILD and send to "unstable". If there is no Bug's then it can move quickly to stable. A Develpment-Leader can organize it for the core/extra packages.

I finally see what you are suggesting. Sort of like bring on more devs who have lesser powers. I wouldn't like it for core packages but it may work for extra. So would we have a team for GNOME, a team for XFCE, a team for KDE, etc, each with a leader. Then anyone in that team can provide a package update for their group which the leader must approve and move to the main repos. It could work...

Allan · 2008-05-05 00:40:34

JaDa wrote:

Allan wrote:
Follow the steps in my second post. The more people who volunteer, the more time the devs have to do their work. Simple as that. The only other option is to bring on more devs but that position isn't just raffled off and be thankful for that.
You know I spend two days to build a new PKGBUILD for helixplayer. Few days ago I ask [aur-general] mailing liste, I like to adopt this orphan package. Today I tried again to adopt it. I can't adopt it I am not a TU/Developer and don't want to be a TU/Developer. Reason, I will only maintaining a Handfull packages, I like to help, but you guys don't take it. What I did, i trush my PKGBUILD build and say "kiss my ass"

I found you email. You change to using your real(?) name rather than you use name in the sent from field. We are not say "kiss my ass", we are just waiting to see if a TU will take it or not. It is best not to move packages in and out of the repos too often. Send another email specifically about helixplayer and if no TU objects to it be moved in the next couple of days, then I will personally move it to unsupported.

JaDa wrote:

The same thing is also going on with Clamav 0.93 in the [arch-public], there are Users how offering there help, Gebra posted his PKGBUILD for help, what else can people do if a developer sitting like a chicken on his eggs (packages), with no response

The PKGBUILD was only posted 10 hours ago... I haven't actually looked into the security vulnerability, but the dev will have to. And look at the fix. And test the package. I've seen "simple" fixes and upgrades run havoc on entire systems (anyone remember that coreutils update). I imagine that this is high on his priority list given the nature of the problem. If people are really worried then they would have built the update package for themselves.

JaDa · 2008-05-05 01:31:18

Allan wrote:

I finally see what you are suggesting. Sort of like bring on more devs who have lesser powers. I wouldn't like it for core packages but it may work for extra. So would we have a team for GNOME, a team for XFCE, a team for KDE, etc, each with a leader. Then anyone in that team can provide a package update for their group which the leader must approve and move to the main repos. It could work...

Good we got now the point.

Allan wrote:

I found you email. You change to using your real(?) name rather than you use name in the sent from field. We are not say "kiss my ass", we are just waiting to see if a TU will take it or not. It is best not to move packages in and out of the repos too often. Send another email specifically about helixplayer and if no TU objects to it be moved in the next couple of days, then I will personally move it to unsupported.

Uwe .....jada[at]arch...... ,
that's fine Allan,
Thank you, I will waiting a week longer

pyther · 2008-05-05 02:18:37

JaDa wrote:

Sigi wrote:
P.S.: Were you drunk when you wrote this?
<snipped>
A example the stable packages gcc & gcc-libs 4.3.0-1.
I tried to build something for my self. I am using a lot "miro" how are far out of date in the Archlinux Repo's and it has a high security risk.
So I changed in the PKGBUILD Version 1.1 to Version pkgver=1.2.3, pkgrel=0, running makepkg -g change the md5sum and running makepkg -cd and get this.
error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1
==> ERROR: Build Failed.
    Aborting...
what is wrong with the stable gcc? So what now, don't using Miro? Or be patient and cross the fingers
I think Archlinux needs a better organize all his packages. It do not make sense for me, you update one package (gcc), and then can't update many another applications

For your information arch updated gcc. Usually when there are gcc updates code will not always compile due to changes with gcc.

Basically some functions have been moved into <cstring>, <cstdlib>, <climits>, <cctype>
For more information on gcc 4.3 read: http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.3/porting_to.html

Maybe this is part of the reason why Miro was out of date maybe it wasn't.

These last few months have really been sad. The community has taken a huge downfall, devs no longer participate because of this crap, but who can blame them. They do this on their own free time (they aren't getting paid), they do what they want, not want you want. You should be happy that one they take input from the community and that the release to the community.

There are to many ungrateful people that have moved in. They feel that arch should be more like the ubuntu ways instead of the arch ways.

If you don't like the way arch is ran, I challenge you, to create a similar distro (use pacman and abs) and try to do it better. Make sure every package is up to date, change the way things are done. Arch has provided the tools, so that you can change things if you don't like them. If you don't use those tools and are not willing to make the effort to fix things when those tools don't work, that's your fault! Linux is about choice. Arch is not a democracy!

It's really simple: If you don't like the way things are done, leave

Last edited by pyther (2008-05-05 02:19:32)

skottish · 2008-05-05 02:49:32

Arch is kind. The developers and most of the users are kind.

Would someone please lock this thread? I mean, I can't find a free clip of "Dead Alive". It's too difficult to maintain.

Does anyone have either the lawnmower clip or the "I kick ass for the Lord" clip?

Last edited by skottish (2008-05-05 02:58:00)

Allan · 2008-05-05 02:59:27

skottish wrote:

Would someone please lock this thread?

Why, when we have finally got to the idea Jada was trying to bring up. If people want to continue discussing that idea then go for it. It is an interesting idea but it kind of moves the role of devs into a manger rather than packagers. It would be a big change in the way we do things and could do with more discussion on the relative pros and cons. Maybe it does not have to be applied everywhere. It would be a way of moving KDEmod into the repos as a replacement for the current KDE (not saying that will happen, just pointing out a possible merit).

If you are going to make posts that add nothing to the discussion (*cough* skottish *cough*) then just don't look at or post in this thread anymore.

Last edited by Allan (2008-05-05 03:10:49)

skottish · 2008-05-05 03:20:35

Allan wrote:

If you are going to make posts that add nothing to the discussion (*cough* skottish *cough*) then just don't look at or post in this thread anymore.

Yes and I apologize.

daf666 · 2008-05-05 05:57:17

Misbah wrote:

I agree with the earlier poster, this thread should be mod-squashed.

Ok I agree, this thread is indeed very very silly pull the plug...
I am just generally against discussion termination.. coz as we have seen this week even eventually it pops up someplace else...

hussam · 2008-05-05 06:15:14

The only issue with clamav 0.93 update is the soname bump. If you build it while 0.92 is installed, it will link against the old library. The workaround is to rebuild 0.93 twice. Or uninstall the existing clamav package and build 0.93

I don't think the package maintainer is intentionally ignoring the update (even though security bug fixes are important). I think what is happening here is that clamav isn't used by many package maintainers because most consider a virus scanner on linux not necessary.

Any of the package maintainers could have updated it by now. It's not a big upload. But I think package maintainers are reluctant to push packages into extra that they don't themselves use or aren't willing to test which is something I respect.

Maybe clamav should be moved to community.

Last edited by hussam (2008-05-05 06:18:39)

Allan · 2008-05-05 06:39:40

Is this the security fix everybody is on about in ClamAV

- New logic in scan limits: provides much more efficient protection against
DoS attacks but also results in different command line and config options
to clamscan and clamd (see below)

Honestly, it does not seem worth all the fuss to me... Who the hell is going to specifically craft attacks against ClamAV? And it is only a DoS vulnerability at that. No root escalation or anything...

Edit: Not saying it does not need fixed. Just I don't see the immediate rush.

Last edited by Allan (2008-05-05 06:40:33)

phrakture · 2008-05-05 06:48:42

Theoden wrote:

Unbelievable! Where are the moderators? If EVER a thread cried out to be locked so it could die - This is it!
--Theoden

Thanks Theoden. As Allan pointed out, I've been a bit AWOL recently. Real life shenanigans.

That said, this thread is one of those really lame finger pointing things that do nothing but annoy everyone involved. Still, I can't really lock it, because it looks like I'm running from something. Either way, I don't really see how out of date packages shows a lack of leadership. To me, it shows a lack of man power.

Sigi · 2008-05-05 06:50:33

JaDa wrote:

Allan wrote:
I finally see what you are suggesting. Sort of like bring on more devs who have lesser powers. I wouldn't like it for core packages but it may work for extra. So would we have a team for GNOME, a team for XFCE, a team for KDE, etc, each with a leader. Then anyone in that team can provide a package update for their group which the leader must approve and move to the main repos. It could work...
Good we got now the point.

Guys lets reconsider the reason for this thread please. I think JaDa made a point which at least needs discussion. I'm glad Allan found out what this was all about. I think the KDE team has already formed in the shape of KDEmod. Are there any other projects which would benefit from such a teamwork? Gnome? Xfce? lx-desktop? enlightenment? godane's arch-live? A CAE/CAD Repo?

cactus · 2008-05-05 07:11:09

So the original complaint went from "arch needs a leader and aaron sucks" to.. "there are some outdated packages" to "we need more TUs"? Did I follow that right?

Sounds to me like the story just changes, and JaDa is grasping at straws saying "people don't understand me". Whatever.

I am tired of this BS. I used to actually enjoy reading the forums.

Well..no longer. I won't be visiting the forums anymore unless I have to.
peace out.

dolby · 2008-05-05 07:27:01

cactus wrote:

I am tired of this BS. I used to actually enjoy reading the forums.
Well..no longer. I won't be visiting the forums anymore unless I have to.
peace out.

Thats exaclty how i feel too. That applies to the IRC channel as well.

KimTjik · 2008-05-05 07:47:08

cactus wrote:

Well..no longer. I won't be visiting the forums anymore unless I have to.
peace out.

I might understand you, nevertheless such actions, if meant literally, could alienate developers from users (yes, ideally all would be developers and contributes in some kind, but that's probably not very realistic). Some would say: "no big deal, take it or leave it as it is". Still it could be like cutting off the lifeline to the future, because as far as I can understand one characteristic of Arch has been this tight interaction between developers and users, which eventually also has generated more developers, contributors, maintainers of packages and so on.

There's probably some tricky balance between thick skin and avoidance of distraction.

zodmaner · 2008-05-05 08:31:46

cactus wrote:

I am tired of this BS. I used to actually enjoy reading the forums.
Well..no longer. I won't be visiting the forums anymore unless I have to.
peace out.

You don't actually have to go that far. Just stop reading/responding to (some) topics in Arch Discussion would more than suffice.

On a more serious note, I have to agree with KimTjik here. Close interaction between developers and users is what make Arch Linux great and I'd hate to see it destroyed because a silly thread like this one. So please, don't go.

hussam · 2008-05-05 08:58:23

Allan wrote:

Is this the security fix everybody is on about in ClamAV
- New logic in scan limits: provides much more efficient protection against
DoS attacks but also results in different command line and config options
to clamscan and clamd (see below)
Honestly, it does not seem worth all the fuss to me... Who the hell is going to specifically craft attacks against ClamAV? And it is only a DoS vulnerability at that. No root escalation or anything...
Edit: Not saying it does not need fixed. Just I don't see the immediate rush.

No, that's not it.
http://www.cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvenam … -2008-1387

Allan · 2008-05-05 09:07:49

hussam wrote:

Allan wrote:
Is this the security fix everybody is on about in ClamAV
- New logic in scan limits: provides much more efficient protection against
DoS attacks but also results in different command line and config options
to clamscan and clamd (see below)
Honestly, it does not seem worth all the fuss to me... Who the hell is going to specifically craft attacks against ClamAV? And it is only a DoS vulnerability at that. No root escalation or anything...
Edit: Not saying it does not need fixed. Just I don't see the immediate rush.
No, that's not it.
http://www.cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvenam … -2008-1387

It is actually the same thing. The new scan limits fix the DoS problem. And who uses ARJ archives these days.

_Marco_ · 2008-05-05 09:14:34

I think this is a very pointless topic.
Arch is nice and can even be better, but it's not a witch hunt that is needed nor flames nor point fingering topics, what is needed are collaboration and respect.
Regards

Arch Linux

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