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#101 2008-05-06 17:12:41

peets
Member
From: Montreal
Registered: 2007-01-11
Posts: 936
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

phrakture wrote:

EDIT: admin hax are funnier (simo is awesome)

Hahaha! They are. Also: Arch is doing great, keep it up!

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#102 2008-05-06 17:13:34

foxbunny
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2006-10-31
Posts: 759
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

OMG, Phrack's desktop is all pink and black! big_smile Way to go k3nsai!

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#103 2008-05-06 17:15:41

floke
Member
Registered: 2007-09-04
Posts: 266

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Of course you could hack Jada and see if you can get any sense out of him?

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#104 2008-05-06 20:16:00

kensai
Member
From: Puerto Rico
Registered: 2005-06-03
Posts: 2,475
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

floke wrote:

Of course you could hack Jada and see if you can get any sense out of him?

Hm... but after hacking phrack and afterwards being hacked by Simo, I'm retiring. lol


Follow me in: Identi.ca, Twitter, Google+

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#105 2008-05-07 06:19:12

jackrat
Member
Registered: 2008-02-13
Posts: 33

Re: Archlinux Leadership

@ Allan

Allan wrote:

Arch has alway been for moderately advanced linux users.  We don't do hand-holding around here.  If you can't rebuild a package, then I really cannot understand how you got your system up and running.  I think the helpfulness of the community has given people the idea that Arch is suitable for new linux users.  Historically it never was considered this way.

That's the kind of elitist statement that I would expect from a MAC forum. Thanks to some of the less elitist people on the forum (tomk, ghostHack, tigrmesh), I was able to get my Arch install up and running, and I don't even know how to rebuild a package. tongue:P

Allan wrote:

While I do welcome any and all people into Arch, to use Arch you have to be willing to learn.

Thank You, I'm here to learn, and BTW, I like Arch, and I now have it configured to do exactly what I want it to do wink.


@ Jada

Jada wrote:

I think developmers are only responsible for the base system.

developmers = developers

Jada wrote:

I am using a lot "miro" how are far out of date in the Archlinux Repo's

how = which

Jada wrote:

A strukture how help all. He is not the only one how fight to keep up to date.

how = who

I am not mocking you, my friend, since you are a native of Germany, I realize that the English language is not your native tongue (even some of us who speak it natively, don't speak it right!), I'm just trying to help you make a better sense of your arguments. As a newbie, I appreciate your views, you've made some very good points, despite the mocking and callous disregard for your point of view. You have, of course, been rather harsh yourself, ( and have brought on some of the ridicule due to that harshness), in your the denigration of Arch's leadership direction, the devs, the structure - and especially of Aaron, himself, and it gives me pause to wonder -- if the mantle of leadership were thrust upon your shoulders, would you be able to manage it as well as Aaron has?


@ everyone else:
I don't know a lot about Arch except what I've read over the past few months, but I intend to learn, and reading the forums is one of the ways that I'm learning wink. Please don't bother to flame me if that's your bent, because I usually just lurk a lot (even long before I decided to install Arch) and I don't bother to get into flame wars, I just want Phrakture and Jada, and some few others to know that I appreciate their individual views and hope to see more people appreciate that Arch is here for everyone, not just the fanatics, the progressives or the traditionalists. I'm sure no one else has the same Arch setup that I have and many of you probably wouldn't want it my way, so let others have their say about what direction they feel things should go ... that doesn't, by any means, assure them that they will get their way, because only Phrakture and the other devs will make that decision smile

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#106 2008-05-07 07:27:51

Allan
is always right
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,463
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

jackrat wrote:

@ Allan

Allan wrote:

Arch has alway been for moderately advanced linux users.  We don't do hand-holding around here.  If you can't rebuild a package, then I really cannot understand how you got your system up and running.  I think the helpfulness of the community has given people the idea that Arch is suitable for new linux users.  Historically it never was considered this way.

That's the kind of elitist statement that I would expect from a MAC forum. Thanks to some of the less elitist people on the forum (tomk, ghostHack, tigrmesh), I was able to get my Arch install up and running, and I don't even know how to rebuild a package. tongue:P

I admit it does sound a bit elitist, but it was definitely not meant that way (I will never use a Mac!).  I was just giving a bit of a history lesson.  If you look over old forums posts, people were historically discouraged from using Arch as their first distro.  That meant that the users who were here could repair their system from a bad upgrade, update the packages that they particularly needed the newest version of if it hadn't hit the repo yet, etc. 

This change has been quite dramatic in the last 6 months to one year.  It was quite interesting to watch.  It started with people saying "if you are prepared to learn and are prepared to search for a solution to your problems then you will be fine".  Now it is just, "here is the beginners guide, just follow the instructions and you will be up and running in no time".  I'm definitely not saying this is a bad thing, just that we have gained a significant number of users that are perhaps less technically competent and less willing to do things themselves than what the older proportion of the community is and is used to.

I think part of the problems we are running into here is that the expectations from the distro has changed with the changing user base.  However, the general principals behind Arch are staying the same as these are what makes Arch the distro it is.  These are clashing a bit at the moment but I am sure it will sort itself out eventually.


BTW, you should look up ABS and makepkg in the wiki.  They allow you to rebuild packages and IMO are one of the best features in Arch.  You got your system running so it should be easy!  big_smile

Last edited by Allan (2008-05-07 07:30:02)

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#107 2008-05-07 08:06:28

adlucem
Member
Registered: 2007-07-19
Posts: 28

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Allan wrote:

This change has been quite dramatic in the last 6 months to one year.  It was quite interesting to watch.  It started with people saying "if you are prepared to learn and are prepared to search for a solution to your problems then you will be fine".

IIRC, when I came in, one year ago, "people saying" had already been consolidated into the FAQ's first entry:

Q) I am a complete Linux beginner. Should I use Arch?

A) This question has had much debate. Arch is targeted at more-advanced Linux users, but some people feel "Arch is a good place to start". If you are a beginner and want to use Arch, just be warned that you MUST be willing to learn. Before asking any question, do your own independent research by googling, searching the Wiki, and searching the forum (and reading past FAQs). If you do that, you should be fine. Also know that many people do not want to answer the same basic questions over and over, so you are exposing yourself to that environment. There is a reason these resources were created/made available to you. You could reference the Arch Linux Beginner's Guide.

Allan wrote:

I think part of the problems we are running into here is that the expectations from the distro has changed with the changing user base.

I agree. Expectations management was what my first post in this thread (post #8) was all about.


Allan wrote:

BTW, you should look up ABS and makepkg in the wiki.

Maybe ABS deserves to have a direct link from the Main page? (next to pacman. Right now, it is linked by the category "Package Management").


jackrat wrote:

I was able to get my Arch install up and running, and I don't even know how to rebuild a package.

Same here, I don't recall using ABS to get my initial set up running.


"The rules of Go are so elegant, organic and rigorously logical that if intelligent life forms exist elsewhere in the universe they almost certainly play Go." E. Lasker, International Chess Master.

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#108 2008-05-07 09:58:52

sweiss
Member
Registered: 2004-02-16
Posts: 635

Re: Archlinux Leadership

I get the feeling that I will get bashed for this post.

However, instead of mocking the original poster, maybe we should start analyzing and elaborating on the possible causes for such a post.
Even if the original post did sound somewhat disrespectful, one should be able to squeeze some constructive criticism out of it.

My take:
The userbase has grown, the number of official packages has grown, the amount of developers/official packagers did not grow at the same rate.
Maybe some TUs deserve being promoted. I can see one who's very dominant on this thread, who will perform great in my opinion.
Maybe a new position of a "packager" is required, rather than a "developer".


And last, but not least:
I see way too much user bashing going on the forums lately. I see little patience towards the simple user.
Users do not use this distro because they are looking for faults. Nor do they post "rants" here in order to discredit Arch.
It is the obligation of the user to say when something is wrong. Not everyone is a developer, and that is what the user can do - supply you all with alerts. I think it is better to see some forum rantings than seeing the number of its users decline silently until there's no one left.

Patience is a two-way street.

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#109 2008-05-07 13:38:33

catwell
Member
From: Bretagne, France
Registered: 2008-02-20
Posts: 207
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

sweiss wrote:

Maybe some TUs deserve being promoted. I can see one who's very dominant on this thread, who will perform great in my opinion.
Maybe a new position of a "packager" is required, rather than a "developer".

Is the problem is manpower for core and extra, maybe that would be a solution. Another one would be to move all the packages that their maintainer isn't able to update from extra to community, so that the TUs can take over them.

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#110 2008-05-07 14:19:07

teddyt
Member
Registered: 2008-02-01
Posts: 4

Re: Archlinux Leadership

sweiss wrote:

And last, but not least:
I see way too much user bashing going on the forums lately. I see little patience towards the simple user.
Users do not use this distro because they are looking for faults. Nor do they post "rants" here in order to discredit Arch.
It is the obligation of the user to say when something is wrong. Not everyone is a developer, and that is what the user can do - supply you all with alerts. I think it is better to see some forum rantings than seeing the number of its users decline silently until there's no one left.

Patience is a two-way street.

I agree completely with this. It is a matter of respect. Maybe I don't have the title of "developer" for a specific distro but that doesn't mean I've done nothing for free software in general.

I'd like to see the response of a dev that sends an inquiry upstream and gets the response, "Ugh, more spam from stupid distro devs! I have a life outside of my software, stop asking questions and making suggestions!" Then he looks at the forums and sees a post mocking distro developers. Wonder if that would take the fun out of things.

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#111 2008-05-07 15:02:16

Cerebral
Forum Fellow
From: Waterloo, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-04-08
Posts: 3,108
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

sweiss wrote:

I see way too much user bashing going on the forums lately. I see little patience towards the simple user.
Users do not use this distro because they are looking for faults. Nor do they post "rants" here in order to discredit Arch.
It is the obligation of the user to say when something is wrong. Not everyone is a developer, and that is what the user can do - supply you all with alerts. I think it is better to see some forum rantings than seeing the number of its users decline silently until there's no one left.

We have no issues with people making suggestions and filing bugs - in fact, we encourage it.   What we do have a problem with is a large group of people re-iterating the same stuff over and over.  So often, people will just post to rant without searching beforehand, even though the topic has been brought up and discussed at length before.  These people bring little new to the table, and in general don't help anything - the "obligation to tell us something is wrong" has already been fulfilled at this point, and unless people bring up new points in the discussion, it's merely wasted time.

Over the last little while, I've seen numerous identical complaints about things like:
. outdated packages
. lack of info pages or other documentation
. autoconfiguration (or 'default sane configuration')

For the most part, the original posts, ages and ages ago, for these topics covered the relevant points, and the recent wave of complaints accomplishes nothing new.

teddyt wrote:

I'd like to see the response of a dev that sends an inquiry upstream and gets the response, "Ugh, more spam from stupid distro devs! I have a life outside of my software, stop asking questions and making suggestions!" Then he looks at the forums and sees a post mocking distro developers. Wonder if that would take the fun out of things.

Please, everyone, stop making this an "us vs. them" "developers vs. users" argument.  Seriously, there's no call for it - we love our users, and in general feel that we're all made from the same stock.  Just because we respond to complaints (which we've seen a million times before) with quick and blunt answers doesn't mean we suddenly hate all our users - it just means that we don't feel the need to reiterate ourselves time and time again.

So, in summary, the best place to satisfy your "obligation to tell us something is wrong" is on the bugtracker.  "BUGS" link above, and do a search for your issue.  If the request has already been filed, add your comment to it (assuming you have insight to add) or vote for it to be implemented.  If a request has already been filed AND closed, you could request it be re-opened, but take note of the reason for closure - if you can't provide a compelling argument that will make the closing dev think again, then maybe it's not worth it.

If the request hasn't been filed yet, then by all means file it.

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#112 2008-05-07 16:26:35

Mr.Elendig
#archlinux@freenode channel op
From: The intertubes
Registered: 2004-11-07
Posts: 3,768

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Warning: rant/sidetrack/thread hijack following; read at your own risk.
(This post may cause blindness, STD, impregnate your daughter, tie your shoelaces together, and install winME on your tv.)

Allan wrote:

I admit it does sound a bit elitist, but it was definitely not meant that way (I will never use a Mac!).  I was just giving a bit of a history lesson.  If you look over old forums posts, people were historically discouraged from using Arch as their first distro.

I still do that on irc, and often get "not so nice" replies.
Here is a real example:

A random person joined #archlinux, and stated that he was going to set up a production server running arch.
He then asks a load of questions that shows that he has no linux experience at all(e.g. why autoprepare is creating a /home, why rm foo/ fails and so on) And when he get pointed at documentation, he get's angry cause he can't be bothered to read manuals.

When I suggest that he might not currently have the skill and mindset needed to run a production server on arch, I get a 30 line long rant on /q, basically telling me to stfu noob, stop being an elitist, and that I shoud go fsck myself.


Arch as an distro shoud expect a sertain level of users, and maby that shoud be stated more clearly.
Don't take this wrong, but imo, the "new to arch" guides shoud be "new to arch" and not "new to linux". Not that arch isn't a suitable distro to start out on, but it takes a certain will to learn, and a bit of dedication. Something that, sadly, seems to be lacking among some of the new users flocking around arch these days.

If you don't have a will to and interest in learning, by reading documentation and listening to more experienced users. And on top of that, think that the distro(devs/TU's) should do anything and everything for you, then don't be angry if someone tells you that Arch might not be the thing for you.

And if you don't like something, then do something about it. Just complaining will get you exactly nowhere.

P.S.
I'm not being an e133+3 h4x()r, I'm just trying to make a sort of shocking statement to get some people here to sit down and think.


Evil #archlinux@freenode channel op and general support dude.
. files on github, Screenshots, Random pics and the rest

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#113 2008-05-07 17:14:28

tomk
Forum Fellow
From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,839

Re: Archlinux Leadership

OK everyone. We've been all over the place in this thread - on-topic, off-topic, on-the-off-topic, off-the-on-topic, insults, rants, ridicule, humour, apologies, etc... something for everyone, really. So I'm doing what needs to be done.

Thread closed, feel free to start other discussions, hopefully more useful and with a little more focus.

/me pulls down the shutters, padlocks the gate.

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