Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

jordi · 2009-09-27 18:43:46

Acecero wrote:

ok back on topic:
"Command Line?! I don't want to go back to DOS!"
Everytime I hear people associate the Linux/Unix shell to dos, really shows how simple their minds are.

And yet Microsoft introduced the powershell which is so awesome that every Windows-User will love command line.

szymon_g · 2009-09-27 20:22:01

jordi wrote:

And yet Microsoft introduced the powershell which is so awesome that every Windows-User will love command line.

and i'm sure that some of those will accuse linux of 'stealing' the idea of command-line from Windows... it could even be funny, if it wouldn't be sad :|

ZankerH · 2009-09-27 21:29:02

jordi wrote:

Acecero wrote:
ok back on topic:
"Command Line?! I don't want to go back to DOS!"
Everytime I hear people associate the Linux/Unix shell to dos, really shows how simple their minds are.
And yet Microsoft introduced the powershell which is so awesome that every Windows-User will love command line.

The powershell is really just a bunch of aliases that allow you to use bash-like commands on DOS. They'd be better off just porting bash and coreutils to windows.

Last edited by ZankerH (2009-09-27 21:29:24)

greenfish · 2009-09-30 09:39:21

How exactly is it a lame reason if you're gamer and you don't want to switch to linux? That's a perfectly valid reason as to not use linux at all if you game a lot. I thought this topic was about people who wanted to switch but wouldn't due to "lame" excuses NOT something they need.

greenfish · 2009-09-30 10:15:00

Aprz wrote:

Well, you know how to operate your car, but a lot of people either don't know how to operate a computer or they use it in an inefficient manner... I hope you're not driving like an idiot, crashing into things, etc? Right? We hear it all the time, students couldn't write a paper cause their computer broke, they didn't know how to use an application, computer at work broke and production stopped for hours to find out that it was something simple (Tech Support joke about this all the time!), and so on. So I wasn't really gearing this like "Learn about how a computer works", but "Learn how to use a damn computer". This could be done on any operating system. With Linux though, it is the better tool out of the operating systems that exist hence why I mention this here, and it's free! It's like a free ferrari that will not crash into anything, it charges in 30 seconds when you plug it into the wall instead of filling it up with gas, tires will never pop, etc.... It's free! It's superior! So not just learning how to operate it, but picking the better tools of the two. We don't need cars, we don't need computers, but how productive are we by not using them?

Well i'm almost 27 years old, driving for the last 7 so yeah I know how to drive and operate a car in traffic. What if you only use your computer for work/surt etc and nothing else? I belive we need a certain type of support for people who doesn't have any interest at all in computers. Sure they would save a few bucks by not calling for help everytime there's a minor problem if they sat down and learned a few basics. But that's another problem, what exactly defines "basic" today? I'm really getting annoyed on how ATI/AMD/NVIDIA/INTEL likes to have a different word for the same thing intstead of using a standard. How are you suppose to keep up with todays terms if they keep changing the names just to make the product seem flashier?

Hardware decoding by gpu:

nvidia: vdpau
ati: vxba
intel: larabee (this is just an example, i might be wrong about some of the names)

Why not use one friggin name?

The underlying software that the desktop environment mask is outdated. This is probably because very few people know how to use it or knows it even exist. The GUI applications that the desktop environment provides does a mediocre job (the user isn't educated enough to know that it is doing a mediocre job) and you pay for (the alternatives already exist on the Mac, but they are free). Getting the job done is not enough by the way.

"Underlying software" I'm not exactly sure what you mean, are you talking about a low tech level like API? I take it you're using leopard or at least tried it to make that assumption? I remember when mas was getting famous in 1994, they had a mac station in my class and it was like 10 years ahead of everything else, especially in the video editing department.

Take a look at using sed vs any other text editor to go through each word individually and change/remove it. That will get the job done, but it's redundant, time wasting, and stupid. I don't care if it gets the job done, the job could've been done faster and better, but you ended up working harder and wasted time and productivity.

I see, so what editor do you belive it's the natural choice to use?

Be sure to drive home safe and efficiently, don't drive like a maniac, don't take the long way home (but stay on course lol, don't drive through houses to get home sooner), use turn signals, make a complete stop, etc... You know the whole deal I think...

Hahhhahah why thank you dear kind sir

EDIT for typos (at work)

ZankerH · 2009-09-30 11:46:36

greenfish wrote:

How exactly is it a lame reason if you're gamer and you don't want to switch to linux? That's a perfectly valid reason as to not use linux at all if you game a lot. I thought this topic was about people who wanted to switch but wouldn't due to "lame" excuses NOT something they need.

You don't "need" gaming. You "want" gaming because you've nothing more important to do with your PC. Lame reason.

greenfish · 2009-09-30 12:43:19

ZankerH wrote:

greenfish wrote:
How exactly is it a lame reason if you're gamer and you don't want to switch to linux? That's a perfectly valid reason as to not use linux at all if you game a lot. I thought this topic was about people who wanted to switch but wouldn't due to "lame" excuses NOT something they need.
You don't "need" gaming. You "want" gaming because you've nothing more important to do with your PC. Lame reason.

So you're basically telling someone who games a lot they don't have anything important to do with their pc or if they are just a casual user. That's funny I wasn't aware linux was aimed for elitists nerds only

Your opinion on what you define as a necessity doesn't mean a pc can't be used for entertainment or similiar.

This might come as a suprise for you but not everyone who's using linux is a nerd/coder/savy etc.

You don't need to use a PC either ZankerH, because you've nothing more important to do with your life, lame reason.

mrunion · 2009-09-30 13:55:18

@greenfish: I think what ZankerH is trying to convey is that In today's work people NEED a computer to do transfers of money, make the phone systems work, read medical records from a tape storage device, etc. Games are not needed in the sense that life could continue without games -- though maybe to some it would be boring or something.

We could argue that game developers "need" to game, but again the whole "games" thing is not considered a necessity.

Again, that's what I infer they are meaning. I like to play games sometimes with my kids so I bought a Wii and an XBox over the past couple of years and we play games on those mostly. My oldest son and I do play a few PC games together, but gaming is not a requirement for us. You may see things differently, though -- and that's fine with me too!

Lich · 2009-09-30 14:11:28

oh n0ez! I can has linax and game at da' same time!

Joking aside..you can game really well on Linux too, but beeing a gamer and using Linux do not cancel eachother out...It's called dualbooting for some time now
If you really want to game on Linux, some games do run native (Doom3 and Neverwinter Nights spring to mind). I've also heard good stories about WINE + CS, and I do run Diablo 2 in WINE just fine...

Last edited by Lich (2009-09-30 14:12:46)

greenfish · 2009-09-30 14:42:06

mrunion wrote:

@greenfish: I think what ZankerH is trying to convey is that In today's work people NEED a computer to do transfers of money, make the phone systems work, read medical records from a tape storage device, etc. Games are not needed in the sense that life could continue without games -- though maybe to some it would be boring or something.
We could argue that game developers "need" to game, but again the whole "games" thing is not considered a necessity.
Again, that's what I infer they are meaning. I like to play games sometimes with my kids so I bought a Wii and an XBox over the past couple of years and we play games on those mostly. My oldest son and I do play a few PC games together, but gaming is not a requirement for us. You may see things differently, though -- and that's fine with me too!

I do understand what he's saying. But remember he's basically saying if x user want's to game and he doesn't wanna switch os, linux that's lame. I rarely game at all, mostly i'm using my HTPC (arch+xbmc) to watch movies and that's basically it. I'm just saying we should respect each individual and their rights to what ever reason they are not switching.

I can understand if someone refuses to switch just beceause there's no pink color avaible on pidget vs windows, now that's a LAME excuse. But how exactly is it a lame excuse if you're a gamer (sorry but linux is farcry from being a gaming os) music artist, facebook junkie, regular use who just wants to surf watch youtube in HD etc or certain apps just doesn't work in linux (enviroment/license issues).

Actually none of us needs a PC to survive to be honest, remember 15-20 years ago? I sure managed to survive without the need of a PC. Yes I know that's pushing it with todays economics/systems etc. But once more this topic was built around "lame excuses not to swith to linux" and to me being dependant of something that's not possible in linux is NOT a lame excuse.

greenfish · 2009-09-30 14:45:31

Lich wrote:

oh n0ez! I can has linax and game at da' same time!
http://omploader.org/tMmdicQ
Joking aside..you can game really well on Linux too, but beeing a gamer and using Linux do not cancel eachother out...It's called dualbooting for some time now
If you really want to game on Linux, some games do run native (Doom3 and Neverwinter Nights spring to mind). I've also heard good stories about WINE + CS, and I do run Diablo 2 in WINE just fine...

Wow those graphics!!!

You have a badass avatar sir!

You run diablo 2 in WINE? I take it you're an nvidia user right? I tried to make d2 run on my system but I had way too many ati related issues so I gave up. Game really well means to me you can play 80% of todays games and that's not something i've seen possible on linux just yet, also they have to run as good as it's counterparts - macosx/windows.

Hopefully one day WINE/Virtualbox will bridge the gap between some users who want's gaming support on linux

Lich · 2009-09-30 15:44:42

Nope, ati x1600 owner. Diablo runs just fine.
I use Virtualbox + Windows XP for Disciples 2 just fine too (for some reason this is a lot faster than running it with WINE)

SpeedVin · 2009-09-30 16:57:39

No one said to me that Linux is bad and so long , but when someone don't want to use Linux I hear:
1.There's nothing in this Linux.
2.I can't play my all games.

b9anders · 2009-09-30 22:37:25

Truth be told, no one needs an excuse not to switch to linux. They're saddled with a system they are moderately proficient with that does what they want to a moderate extent.

It's up to linux to provide compelling reasons for them wanting to switch, not scoff at why people aren't bothered. And not just compelling reasons for why Linux is better. But compelling enough to actually make people want to switch.

Last edited by b9anders (2009-09-30 22:38:08)

Themaister · 2009-10-01 00:25:45

I don't really see the point in trying to force people over to another OS. You really need to "find" Linux for it to be a permanent stay. There's always that little moment where you'd go "Goddamn, this thing <X> doesn't work they way I'm used to, I'll go back to <Y>. If you find it yourself, you're willing to put in that little extra effort to get things comfy

ZankerH · 2009-10-01 00:25:52

b9anders wrote:

Truth be told, no one needs an excuse not to switch to linux. They're saddled with a system they are moderately proficient with that does what they want to a moderate extent.
It's up to linux to provide compelling reasons for them wanting to switch, not scoff at why people aren't bothered. And not just compelling reasons for why Linux is better. But compelling enough to actually make people want to switch.

I suppose that by "Linux" in the second paragraph, you mean the Free software community.

Briefly: No.

Not quite as briefly: It's not up to us, or anyone, to go around telling people to switch. People who care should do their own research and come to the logical conclusions - that is, the fact that gaming is a waste of time and GNU/Linux is superior to whatever proprietary piece of crap they're using. People who don't care will probably continue to pay exorbitant prices to be allowed to use (that's right, allowed to use, you don't even get to own software you pay for nowadays) crappy proprietary software and like it, but they shouldn't expect to be treated as rational, sane people, because that kind of behaviour is not indicative of a rational and sane personality.

Acecero · 2009-10-01 03:47:16

Themaister wrote:

I don't really see the point in trying to force people over to another OS. You really need to "find" Linux for it to be a permanent stay. There's always that little moment where you'd go "Goddamn, this thing <X> doesn't work they way I'm used to, I'll go back to <Y>. If you find it yourself, you're willing to put in that little extra effort to get things comfy

It's all about letting people's egocentrism figure out what's best from them. If they think Linux is not good from them, let them be ignorant.

Trent · 2009-10-01 04:18:31

ZankerH wrote:

b9anders wrote:
Truth be told, no one needs an excuse not to switch to linux. They're saddled with a system they are moderately proficient with that does what they want to a moderate extent.
It's up to linux to provide compelling reasons for them wanting to switch, not scoff at why people aren't bothered. And not just compelling reasons for why Linux is better. But compelling enough to actually make people want to switch.
I suppose that by "Linux" in the second paragraph, you mean the Free software community.

Don't suppose that. I think b9anders means that, for a given Windows user, it's not his responsibility to defend his choice not to switch to Linux. Rather, it's the benefits that switching to Linux brings him that ultimately justify him making the switch. It's the responsibility of Linux, not to convince him to stay forever, but to make his visit as pleasant as possible. If he ends up deciding to stick around for the rest of his life, that's a pleasant side effect. That's where the whole "compelling enough to ... make people want to switch" [emphasis mine] comes in.

And I wholeheartedly believe that there are some people for whom Linux is not a viable option. Don't put down people who use Windows. They're not stupid or ignorant or irrational; they're practical. And the practical reality is this: Switching to Linux often pays off in the long run, but not switching always pays off right now. It's up to the user to decide whether the cost of switching is worth the risk of finding that Linux just won't work, and for many applications -- game development, photo editing, and using certain hardware, to name a few -- Linux may just not work, or may not work well enough to make the switch worthwhile. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

Acecero · 2009-10-01 05:01:03

Trent wrote:

And I wholeheartedly believe that there are some people for whom Linux is not a viable option. Don't put down people who use Windows. They're not stupid or ignorant or irrational; they're practical. And the practical reality is this: Switching to Linux often pays off in the long run, but not switching always pays off right now. It's up to the user to decide whether the cost of switching is worth the risk of finding that Linux just won't work, and for many applications -- game development, photo editing, and using certain hardware, to name a few -- Linux may just not work, or may not work well enough to make the switch worthwhile. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

If this message is for me, I never said Windows, nor that I meant to put them down. I meant people in general who lack the fundamental will to learn a different OS out of curiosity, whenever it's coming from a different OS they are used to using or no computing background at all.

The only "practical reality" to switching to Linux, is something you want to do, not because you have to switch, whenever it's saving cost for any type job market you're trying to accomplish. That's why we have choice. It's not good to promote Linux in front of other people who would not be interested, it just leaves bad impressions. I don't know if the statistics are still correct, but last time I heard, mostly 90% of all the computer in the world run windows. So it a fact people are less likely to switch, due to these "practical" reasons.

brando56894 · 2009-10-01 05:16:36

"I dont like it, it doesnt work like windows does" - my dad, even though the only things that he does is surf the web (with firefox), read his mail (with thunderbird), watch porn (which he still tries to hide even though hes 59 and im 24 lol) and occasionally type up a document.

I tried to make him use linux (kubuntu, linux mint kde, arch w/kdemod) multiple times because he constantly would infect windows xp with spyware/malware and I would have to fix it so I got fed up at one point and installed linux and commented xp out in grub sadly he always made me switch him back to windows, hes using windows 7 now...

Intrepid · 2009-10-01 06:23:12

@brando: THAT is an example of improperly using a PC, not gaming ! I, for one, am a full-time sciences student, gamer/light programmer, linux/OSX-user, musician, indie/amateur video editor, etc. My reason for switching was because of the problems/limitations of windows, not having a wide variety of free software, the poor quality of a lot of windows software, and curiosity. I felt, after Windows 95 believe it or not, things have taken a slow turn for the worse in the Microsoft world. My father has the exact same problem as yours, yet he insists on using 1)internet explorer and 2)using the computer improperly. I got fed up with his problems so I stopped offering my help . I've never had a virus in Windows caused by myself .

fuse · 2009-10-01 17:37:47

ZankerH wrote:

b9anders wrote:
Truth be told, no one needs an excuse not to switch to linux. They're saddled with a system they are moderately proficient with that does what they want to a moderate extent.
It's up to linux to provide compelling reasons for them wanting to switch, not scoff at why people aren't bothered. And not just compelling reasons for why Linux is better. But compelling enough to actually make people want to switch.
I suppose that by "Linux" in the second paragraph, you mean the Free software community.
Briefly: No.
Not quite as briefly: It's not up to us, or anyone, to go around telling people to switch. People who care should do their own research and come to the logical conclusions - that is, the fact that gaming is a waste of time and GNU/Linux is superior to whatever proprietary piece of crap they're using. People who don't care will probably continue to pay exorbitant prices to be allowed to use (that's right, allowed to use, you don't even get to own software you pay for nowadays) crappy proprietary software and like it, but they shouldn't expect to be treated as rational, sane people, because that kind of behaviour is not indicative of a rational and sane personality.

What exactly is superior? Windows and OSX are light years ahead of any current Desktop distributions offerings. They all have issues but as far as a Desktop offering Linux (kernel included) has the most that will never be addressed. FWIW I could have "wasted" less time in the last 7 years gaming than debugging and fixing stupid issues with Linux. Unless you write your own code regardless of OS you will never "own" anything this includes OSS.

Last edited by fuse (2009-10-01 17:39:37)

greenfish · 2009-10-01 18:53:49

fuse wrote:

ZankerH wrote:
b9anders wrote:
Truth be told, no one needs an excuse not to switch to linux. They're saddled with a system they are moderately proficient with that does what they want to a moderate extent.
It's up to linux to provide compelling reasons for them wanting to switch, not scoff at why people aren't bothered. And not just compelling reasons for why Linux is better. But compelling enough to actually make people want to switch.
I suppose that by "Linux" in the second paragraph, you mean the Free software community.
Briefly: No.
Not quite as briefly: It's not up to us, or anyone, to go around telling people to switch. People who care should do their own research and come to the logical conclusions - that is, the fact that gaming is a waste of time and GNU/Linux is superior to whatever proprietary piece of crap they're using. People who don't care will probably continue to pay exorbitant prices to be allowed to use (that's right, allowed to use, you don't even get to own software you pay for nowadays) crappy proprietary software and like it, but they shouldn't expect to be treated as rational, sane people, because that kind of behaviour is not indicative of a rational and sane personality.
What exactly is superior? Windows and OSX are light years ahead of any current Desktop distributions offerings. They all have issues but as far as a Desktop offering Linux (kernel included) has the most that will never be addressed. FWIW I could have "wasted" less time in the last 7 years gaming than debugging and fixing stupid issues with Linux. Unless you write your own code regardless of OS you will never "own" anything this includes OSS.

I agree with a lot of things you brought up. I don't use windows or macosx my self anymore but no desktop user should ever debug basic fundamental stuff just to have a functional system. The main issue here isn't the kernel (in my opinion) but the support or shall I say the lack of it from 3rd party developers.

Why would any macosx/windows desktop user switch if the other system is inferior for them?. Keyword here is: desktop usage.

This picture sure says a lot don't it?

The majority of paying computer customers are your daily joes who just want's to watch youtube in full hd or games, facebook,twitter not someone who think watching a code compile is "awesome".

But ... linux have done a lot the last years especially the 2.6 kernel, it's nothing short of a miracle. Ubuntu is trying to mainstream linux as a fully functional desktop system, and hopefully they will succeed.

For 2 months I ran w7 and i'm pretty impressed, hell that beast even runs great on notebooks (who'd thought that about the vista 2.0 kernel), but nothing will turn me away from linux anymore though

SpeedVin · 2009-10-02 05:22:58

Themaister wrote:

I don't really see the point in trying to force people over to another OS. You really need to "find" Linux for it to be a permanent stay. There's always that little moment where you'd go "Goddamn, this thing <X> doesn't work they way I'm used to, I'll go back to <Y>. If you find it yourself, you're willing to put in that little extra effort to get things comfy

I don't force peapole to change OS becouse when they will a problem (for them) it always be OS fault.

Acecero · 2009-10-02 20:40:23

SpeedVin wrote:

I don't force people to change OS because when they have a problem (for them) it will always be OS fault.

As the saying goes, "an OS is just as stable as its user."

Arch Linux

#151 2009-09-27 18:43:46

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#152 2009-09-27 20:22:01

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#153 2009-09-27 21:29:02

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#154 2009-09-30 09:39:21

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#155 2009-09-30 10:15:00

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#156 2009-09-30 11:46:36

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#157 2009-09-30 12:43:19

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#158 2009-09-30 13:55:18

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#159 2009-09-30 14:11:28

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#160 2009-09-30 14:42:06

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#161 2009-09-30 14:45:31

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#162 2009-09-30 15:44:42

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#163 2009-09-30 16:57:39

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#164 2009-09-30 22:37:25

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#165 2009-10-01 00:25:45

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#166 2009-10-01 00:25:52

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#167 2009-10-01 03:47:16

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#168 2009-10-01 04:18:31

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#169 2009-10-01 05:01:03

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#170 2009-10-01 05:16:36

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#171 2009-10-01 06:23:12

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#172 2009-10-01 17:37:47

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#173 2009-10-01 18:53:49

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#174 2009-10-02 05:22:58

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

#175 2009-10-02 20:40:23

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Board footer