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#26 2004-07-23 13:27:17

dp
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From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

zeppelin wrote:

Esperanto idea is dead, because everyone knows (some) English these days.

no it is not - and no also this is wrong in my eyes (see down)

zeppelin wrote:

Languages are TOOLS.

very true :-)

zeppelin wrote:

Tools gets replaced by better ones

yes - and as a biologist, i see similarities:
your replacement-thingy is what is called selection by evolution (seems to work also on "things", also on "virtual things", cool, eh?)

the thing is that selection can also make mroe than one species to exist - that evolves to diversity - keeping compatibility between the pieces must be made artificially (=be constructed by humans), because selection takes long and can be bloody - esperanto is a bridge in my eyes

zeppelin wrote:

imagine this:
Aliens contact us, if they are clever they would talk to us in English. I 'm a native Greek, but that's the truth.

you forget spanish, protuguese, chinese, japanese and other majorities - english is one of them, but in my eyes, only really dominant on the internet (i'm from centre of europe, and around me no country speaks english natively - i have to go to england to hear it / use it en masse)

zeppelin wrote:

English is these days, the EARTHIAN.
that could change in the future, but for now IT IS.

so esperanto and other like small english can kiss my as$

:-)

ok, the problem was this:

we have

english,
spanish,
portuguese,
french,
german,
(we let asiatic langs aside temporarely, as it is too complicate to make one language of asiatic+the european langs - maybe this is a task for esperanto2 ? ;-) )

and we need a language to make all of them happy without favouring any of them: esperanto

by saying english is earthinan, you force a lot of people addapting - not really nice :-)

les Français n'aimen't pas parler anglais - wie die meisten anderen leute, die nativ lateinische sprachen sprechen - ups sorry i switched a little, but both of these langs are also earthian and should be understood, right? (if not, then esperanto can step in as the bridge for worlds :-) )

got the point why i think that the idea of esperanto is a good one? :-)


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#27 2004-07-23 16:06:49

mcubednyc
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From: New York, NY USA
Registered: 2004-03-17
Posts: 120

Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

dp wrote:

the thing is that selection can also make mroe than one species to exist - that evolves to diversity - keeping compatibility between the pieces must be made artificially (=be constructed by humans), because selection takes long and can be bloody - esperanto is a bridge in my eyes

Well, this is what I don't understand:  Why must there be "compatibility"?

dp wrote:

ok, the problem was this:

Nor do I understand why it is a problem that we have English, Spanish, Portugese, etc.  This is a good thing!  This is a great thing!  Why do you want a monoculture?  Isn't this a problem with computing today -- the dominance of one platform?

dp wrote:

and we need a language to make all of them happy without favouring any of them: esperanto

Who is unhappy?  What are they unhappy about?  Non capisco!

dp wrote:

les Français n'aimen't pas parler anglais -

Then let them speak French, to paraphrase Marie Antoinette (attributed).     The French take great pains to preserve French as a language -- IMO, they go way overboard, but that's neither here nor there.  The point is, why would any given Francophone (or Italian or Norwegian or Englishman, etc.) want to learn Esperanto as opposed to any other the other living, breathing, vital languages already spoken by (in most cases) millions of people?   You seem to think that the diversity of human language is a problem to be fixed; I don't understand what the problem is.  I think it is something to be celebrated, and explored, and such pursuits should be encouraged.

dp wrote:

but both of these langs are also earthian and should be understood, right? (if not, then esperanto can step in as the bridge for worlds :-) )

Both of those languages are understood, by the people who want to understand them.  It seems much more useful and desireable to me to increase those numbers, than to direct people to a non-organic, artificial language that relatively few people have any passion for.  Here we have countless culture centers that do a great job of that -- for example:

http://www.goethe.de/uk/ney/enskurse.htm
http://www.nyu.edu/deutscheshaus/

where you can not only do language studies, but culture studies also, or just go to see films or art exhibitions or hear music.  IMO, places like these (the Asia Society, Alliance Francais, etc.) encourage a much greater degree of meaningful communication than would be possible if those resources were applied to the promotion of Esperanto.

More languages!  Mutating languages!  More dialects!  More people speaking more languages!  Diversity!  Hurray!  :-)

dp wrote:

got the point why i think that the idea of esperanto is a good one? :-)

No, sorry, I still don't.  It sounds to me like something that a gang of soulless bureaucrats in a windowless room somewhere in Geneva would think is a good idea.  It also sounds like something George Orwell would have had a field day with.  :-)


"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream." - S. Jackson

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#28 2004-07-23 16:34:38

dp
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From: Zürich, Switzerland
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

i really like diversity - hey, i'm living in a country where 7mio people speak more than 300 dialects - it's really cool :-)

unfortunately one life is not enough to learn all the languages (call me lazy) available to have access to the writings from all of the sources written in them - therefore it can be usefull to have a unique lang for the written things

i'm not direcly for speaking esperanto, because it is much more fun to communicate with your arms/hands and legs to understand each other, if you are in a foreighn country - but the written things would be much simpler this way (especially because esperanto has a clear structure in it for how to write things without much exeptions (because it was constructed and not evolved out of using it))

having docs in esperanto would mean that a lot of people would understand who do not know the langs the docs are in - and also those who do not know esperanto would understand parts of it (on the other hand: writing esperanto is much more difficult and needs training i lack)

i do not mean that the diversity of language is a problem to be fixed (well, with atomic weapons, it can be fixed very fast) - no, i see the chance in esperanto as an add on for the people to write in to understand each others docs (like the romans used latin to unify the empire - most of the people didnt speak latin but their own lang, but they wrote and read latin to understand each other [=my interpretation - not == with all historical interpretations of the rom.empire, i know])

did i explained better this time?


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#29 2004-07-23 17:39:53

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

kakabaratruskia wrote:

Thanks for the info. I'll try to read it.

Edit1: I've read it, and in fact it is interesting. I have to admit that I'm still a grade-two thinker. Maybe some day I'll improve. If you know more stuff like this, please tell me about it. I'm interested in becoming a grade-one thinker, and I think I should read.

Sounds familiar. smile

You might be interested in "Prisons we choose to live inside" by Doris Lessing. They were a series of lectures, but are available as a book now. I'm personally also interested in Zen and Taoist scripts, but I don't know if that's related.  "Cosmic Consiousness" By Richard Bucke is also an interesting read, though to be honest I didn't like it.  Henry David Thoreau's "Walden" is a real sit back and thinker too.

It must be really weird to think with images. I can't do that, even if I try. I think I never will, maybe I'm already screwed.

I prefer to look at it as a sign of genius. lol

My sister says when she listens to music the words create vivid pictures in her head.  When she plays music she "sees" it. For me, I only hear harmony (or lack thereof); I "feel" it. She's got a great head fro remembering lyrics and tunes, I can't.

Another thing is reading. Because I can't understand the words unless I explicitly hear them in my head, I could never learn to speed read (faster than 600 wpm, anyway). My Mom never hears the words, she only sees symbols when she reads, she reads a lot faster than me.

Now that you got me thinking on it again though, I wouldn't say I only think in words, as in speech or language. I would say I think in sounds. Some of my thoughts are composed of musical notes or nonsense sounds.... though such thoughts have significance to me, it would be utterly impossible to convey them to somebody else, as there is no common language to describe them.

dp: I don't think you can use phrases like "we all..." when discussing how we think.  It's impossible to know how other people think, even if you ask them, they mostly just say "I dunno, uh, I just think". But I know for a fact that the way thoughts are composed in my head is very different from the way some other people describe their thoughts. For example, I don't think in symbols and pictures and sounds, as you suggest, though you must do. I find it a very taxing job to try to visualize a situation or picture or symbol in my head. If I do try to visualize something I have to actually "paint" the picture using thought-words...

Make sense, no? We need a psychoanalyst in here to explain things, but I personally think most of them are too screwed up to be much help anyway... :-D

Dusty

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#30 2004-07-23 18:10:41

kakabaratruskia
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From: Santiago, Chile
Registered: 2003-08-24
Posts: 596

Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

zeppelin wrote:

English is these days, the EARTHIAN.
that could change in the future, but for now IT IS.

This does not say exactly that , even though I don't know it's accuracy.
http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/help/top-1 … ation.html

Dp, I admit that you probably know a lot more than me in Biology (probably in everything too), but I got bored reading your post, as you had the absolute trouth. I don't think that is the way to go. The nazi party killed 6 million jews in a move like that. I don't mean you're bad intended, or anything. Just that you maybe have to reconsider that you will never, in your entire life know what is going on inside of someone elses head. In fact it's very narsisistic to think you know what someone else is thinking. Sometimes you are almost sure that someone is lying to you, but you cannot know without evidence. Anyway, thanks for your wisdom. Hope I get to read the post later.


Dusty, I agree with you on most the things you are saying , and think it's very interesting to know another free thinker like you, that has ideas like mine. In my school there are very few, and most grade-two/three thinkers ar communists that will kill you if you say something they don't like (don't know if you are a communist, but it's a bit harder for you to kill me over the internet wink)
Thanks for the titles, I'll try to find them. Anyway, right now, I told my dad I wanted to read Nietzche, and he bought every Nietzche book on the planet, so I have plenty to read. Maybe later I'll give you some titles too. Stay in tune.

PS: I hate quoting, cause I always mess up, and the code "

" appears in the text, so I just put the names.

PS2: By the way, Dusty, my dad is a psychoanalyst. I've talked a lot about this stuff with him, and he told me, he could never say something about what someone else is thinking, he can just give opinions, cause he can never know something for sure. He can give opinions when he has followed the person for some time, and in some strict way, and then they can be considered "truths", even though they're just interpretetions. He won't tell you what you are feeling, because he won't know. He can just comment what he thinks you are thinking. He cannot tell for sure what you're thinking. That would be too narcissistic.


And where were all the sportsmen who always pulled you though?
They're all resting down in Cornwall
writing up their memoirs for a paper-back edition
of the Boy Scout Manual.

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#31 2004-07-23 20:21:30

dp
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From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,366
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

Dusty wrote:

dp: I don't think you can use phrases like "we all..." when discussing how we think.  It's impossible to know how other people think, even if you ask them, they mostly just say "I dunno, uh, I just think". But I know for a fact that the way thoughts are composed in my head is very different from the way some other people describe their thoughts. For example, I don't think in symbols and pictures and sounds, as you suggest, though you must do. I find it a very taxing job to try to visualize a situation or picture or symbol in my head. If I do try to visualize something I have to actually "paint" the picture using thought-words...

hmm ... i cannot agree more to this what you wrote, if we speak about the thinking of the people, how they "mean" they think (argg... i dont know the words to express what i mean) - it's the view how people think they think and  the part that is analyzed by the psychoanalysts --- what i was speaking about is the molecular view of the things: all the senses are giving input to the brain and therfore all are part of the process "thinking". the thing is that the devolopement of the neuronal networks (while widely unknown) makes people having one or 2 senses being the main ones to "interpret the data" and make us think we think with them mostly; what is also true, but there is still a small part the other senses/centres are taking part of the process - it's not none and therefore i said "we all ..." - thanx for helping me making this more clear


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#32 2004-07-23 20:34:31

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

kakabaratruskia wrote:

Dp, I admit that you probably know a lot more than me in Biology

currently, there does not seem to be much of a link between study of biology and study of mind/soul/self. I've talked to dp about that though, the area of study he's pursuing (molecular biology) is potentially the link between the living flesh (body --> biology) and the living mind (mind --> philosophy and psychology and mysticism).  I can't remember exactly the words he used, but he said something like he wanted to study the beginnings of life because that was the beginning of mind.

(don't know if you are a communist, but it's a bit harder for you to kill me over the internet wink)

Yeah, and I'm too  morally upright to try to hack you. :-D

I don't think I'm a communist, but I have problems with North American definitions of democracy... I'm quite interested in Swiss democracy (wait'll dp picks up on that smile), and also on various moral applications of anarchy (such as in the novel "The Dispossessed" by Ursula K Le Guin.  You might like her works too).

Maybe later I'll give you some titles too. Stay in tune.

would be much appreciated, I just finished my second reading of my last order from Amazon. smile

my dad is a psychoanalyst.

ah, my apologies for the remark against them. smile

He cannot tell for sure what you're thinking.

And if he can't, why do those of us who have no training even try?

I don't think there is a school or course that studies the science/art of thinking directly. There's mysticism, philosophy, biology, psychology, cognitive science... they all have different applications, how we think, why we think, what we think, what makes us think, etc... but no textbook that tells us what thoughts really are. Perhaps that's because thoughts are bigger than language and language cannot be bent to describe thought. wink

Dusty

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#33 2004-07-23 20:44:50

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

dp wrote:

if we speak about the thinking of the people, how they "mean" they think (argg... i dont know the words to express what i mean)

Chances are the words don't even exist in English... English tends not to be a thinking language... it was popularized amoungst working/hunting/gathering people, not thinking people... Then around the renasaince and the industrial revolution it had to be adapted to an information/thought oriented society...

Now, if we were all conversing in Chinese, those folks probably have a language to describe most any thought. They've been thinking for millenia. :-D

it's the view how people think they think and  the part that is analyzed by the psychoanalysts --- what i was speaking about is the molecular view of the things:

That make more sense. I was describing the logical unit of something or other (see, no English word?) that we call a "thought". You were describing the perceptions of the five senses that are sent to the brain.

Now the question is, what happens inside the brain to these perceptions that turns them into a thought?

It's like asking how a bunch of binary digits (the perceptions) suddenly become this much larger logical idea called a file.

Dusty

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#34 2004-07-23 20:46:10

dp
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From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

kakabaratruskia wrote:

Dp, I admit that you probably know a lot more than me in Biology (probably in everything too), but I got bored reading your post, as you had the absolute trouth. I don't think that is the way to go. The nazi party killed 6 million jews in a move like that. I don't mean you're bad intended, or anything. Just that you maybe have to reconsider that you will never, in your entire life know what is going on inside of someone elses head. In fact it's very narsisistic to think you know what someone else is thinking. Sometimes you are almost sure that someone is lying to you, but you cannot know without evidence. Anyway, thanks for your wisdom. Hope I get to read the post later.

well, i study biology and it can be that i do a little more than you, but i suspect that i do know more in other regions

about the absolute truth i do not know what you mean and the political analogies i do not see, because i'm very bad in history and politics, sorry - can you explain it to me? ... and what does "narsistic" mean? (i a "isis" do not exist in any word in any lang i know, so i assume that the "is" is repeated once, because a neuron in your brain fired too intensively thinking of this word-part) i do not think that i know what someone else is thinking, but i can imagine how the process behind this neural action is taking place, so i think i can imagine how "thinking" happens
sorry that i explained it not clear enough

(neurology is one of my favourites - sorry if i went into too much details)


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#35 2004-07-23 20:57:59

kakabaratruskia
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From: Santiago, Chile
Registered: 2003-08-24
Posts: 596

Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

It's written "narcissistic". Excessive love or admiration of oneself (according to dictionary.com)
Sorry for my english, but I did not give the time to look the word up. I think it's very narcissistic to think you know what other people think. Why should you have that power. Why shouldn't then I be some kind of god. I do not know what people think, and never will. It's just like that, so pretending you can, is pretending that you are superior, and that you know more about what someone is thinking that himself (which would be very arrogant). Don't know if you think that way, but I just thought that in your post you were a bit too sure about the things you were saying, about how people thought. You don't know.
Mmmm the thing about politics, is that you cannot know what is right. You can for you, and you can try to persuade(?) other people that what you think is the right thing. But you have to see the possibility that you can be totaly wrong, and it's the same probability that the other one is wrong. If not you can end like the nazis, that were so sure that they were the best ones, that killed lot's of people. I don't mean you can be a killer, but you can be dangerous if you don't admit that you might be wrong. For the latest posts you have made, I see you understand this, so I won't go any further, as it was primarily a misunderstandment(?)-


And where were all the sportsmen who always pulled you though?
They're all resting down in Cornwall
writing up their memoirs for a paper-back edition
of the Boy Scout Manual.

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#36 2004-07-23 21:14:28

dp
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From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,366
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

Dusty wrote:
dp wrote:

if we speak about the thinking of the people, how they "mean" they think (argg... i dont know the words to express what i mean)

Chances are the words don't even exist in English... English tends not to be a thinking language... it was popularized amoungst working/hunting/gathering people, not thinking people... Then around the renasaince and the industrial revolution it had to be adapted to an information/thought oriented society...

Now, if we were all conversing in Chinese, those folks probably have a language to describe most any thought. They've been thinking for millenia. :-D

he he ... this is most probably the case: the languages (at least the ones i use) are not perfect (nor is my knowledge about them, so it's most probably my mistake and not the lack of words in the language - at least for now - maybe in some more words, it will change)

this leads to an other question: how are words created?

Dusty wrote:

it's the view how people think they think and  the part that is analyzed by the psychoanalysts --- what i was speaking about is the molecular view of the things:

That make more sense. I was describing the logical unit of something or other (see, no English word?) that we call a "thought". You were describing the perceptions of the five senses that are sent to the brain.

Now the question is, what happens inside the brain to these perceptions that turns them into a thought?

It's like asking how a bunch of binary digits (the perceptions) suddenly become this much larger logical idea called a file.

Dusty

not only the preceptions (this word i was searching too - thx) but also the interpretation/editing of the information and (at least the beginning of) the active "thinking" - the steps how they start are more or less good explained (especially for the eyes, seeing and recognition of shapes - a lot of lit.) but how the interpreted information becomes a virtual thought (not mirror neurons, but the ones that fire when you only think about something without having a clear related stimulation) is quite totally unknown

ohh .. and by the way: PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS THREAD A OFF-TOPIC, AS ALL IS PART OF THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE VALUE OF ESPERANTO


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#37 2004-07-23 21:14:43

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

kakabaratruskia wrote:

misunderstandment(?)-

"misunderstanding" would be correct English.

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#38 2004-07-23 21:24:03

kakabaratruskia
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From: Santiago, Chile
Registered: 2003-08-24
Posts: 596

Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

I was thinking, that most of my inner thinking I do it in english. Now this is very strange, because my native tongue is spanish. But if I come to think about it, here in Chile, we use like two words for communicating. Lot's of swearing and connectors, that's all needed to survive. So when I think in spanish, I just use a very small amount of words, which I keep repeating like a thousand times, to make a sentence, even if I can speak correct spanish, it's not natural. English, on the other hand, I use it more as it's thaught on school, so I tend to think more in english. I'd never realized, but it's pretty anoying, because I lack a lot of words. I think I'll start talking correct spanish, to see if I can get used to it.


And where were all the sportsmen who always pulled you though?
They're all resting down in Cornwall
writing up their memoirs for a paper-back edition
of the Boy Scout Manual.

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#39 2004-07-23 21:52:52

dp
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From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,366
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

kakabaratruskia wrote:

It's written "narcissistic". Excessive love or admiration of oneself (according to dictionary.com)

thanx for the explaination - i learned a word today, *Juppie!*

my love/admiration to myself is for sure not excessive, at least i hope so - but as at the moment i have no girlfriend, it is nobody else around to admire ( :shock: , :evil: and total :?: ) - ironically speaking :-)

kakabaratruskia wrote:

Sorry for my english, but I did not give the time to look the word up. I think it's very narcissistic to think you know what other people think. Why should you have that power. Why shouldn't then I be some kind of god. I do not know what people think, and never will. It's just like that, so pretending you can, is pretending that you are superior, and that you know more about what someone is thinking that himself (which would be very arrogant). Don't know if you think that way, but I just thought that in your post you were a bit too sure about the things you were saying, about how people thought. You don't know.

oh... i for sure dont know what everybody is thinking, but i hope to know a little bit about how people think

often, biologists seem to the outer world as gods or atheistic godless master-characters ... i hope not to be - but feel free to speak out, if you think i seem to behave so, thanx

kakabaratruskia wrote:

Mmmm the thing about politics, is that you cannot know what is right. You can for you, and you can try to persuade(?) other people that what you think is the right thing. But you have to see the possibility that you can be totaly wrong, and it's the same probability that the other one is wrong. If not you can end like the nazis, that were so sure that they were the best ones, that killed lot's of people

that's very true ... besides the nazi there are (unfortunately) also some actual examples normal people cannot do anything against, witch i do not like to discuss here, as it is not related to the topic

kakabaratruskia wrote:

I don't mean you can be a killer, but you can be dangerous if you don't admit that you might be wrong. For the latest posts you have made, I see you understand this, so I won't go any further, as it was primarily a misunderstandment(?)-

ok, sorry for being not too clear in the beginning - it's the contra of what you meant: i really like, if people tell me i'm wrong, if they can bring up a point why - so any critics and comments are welcome anytime anywhere (except when i'm in a hurry to catch the train and the next one is an hour later ;-) )


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#40 2004-07-23 22:06:00

dp
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From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,366
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

kakabaratruskia wrote:

I was thinking, that most of my inner thinking I do it in english. Now this is very strange, because my native tongue is spanish. But if I come to think about it, here in Chile, we use like two words for communicating. Lot's of swearing and connectors, that's all needed to survive. So when I think in spanish, I just use a very small amount of words, which I keep repeating like a thousand times, to make a sentence, even if I can speak correct spanish, it's not natural. English, on the other hand, I use it more as it's thaught on school, so I tend to think more in english. I'd never realized, but it's pretty anoying, because I lack a lot of words. I think I'll start talking correct spanish, to see if I can get used to it.

that's very interessant: i have very similar experiences: i speak natively swiss-german , but this is also a simplification, as i speak the dialect of one region i grew up, then i mixed this with the one dialect where i went to school and now i start mixing it up with the one i study, but this is no problem because it comes automatically (no need to search for words) - german, the official language, i must concentrate to speak correctly (without mixing with swiss-german), but english and french, i do not know enough words, to think absolutely in this language, so i build virtual sentences while writing them in en/fr but with some german words to be replaced and stoping on these words writing to think about their translation in en/fr

the other situation i mix languages is when i read in one language for long and then someone starts speaking with me in another: i tend to first answer in the one i0m reading, but then realizing that it is the wrong i fall in total confusion and start thinking what one to use - very strange but also funny in a few situations

what i realized is, while i study (=reading a lot of texts in english) and participating in this forum, i begin to think in english without that much stops for word-searches: it becomes more natural to use while practicing - cool


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#41 2004-07-24 17:51:30

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 1,249
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Re: Docs in Esperanto -including a deep analyse of langs/thoughs

nice little essay of Golding, I must change my sigg at once,

@kakabratruskia
you must have misunderstood dp, he knows about random.....:D


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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