Why is Arch trending up?

Acecero · 2009-08-13 06:28:11

I don't know what to say, should I be surprised?

.:B:. · 2009-08-13 06:45:33

Well it does seem to produce a sensible discussion so I'll move it off the blacklist .

That also allows me to drop in my 2 cents.

I think the hausse has been going for a while, not just now - it's just that people seem to notice now that Arch is 'moving up' on Distrowatch. But that is a select public (imho a site like that is totally redundant if you settled on a distro). The original userbase does not care about Distrowatch (you can prune the Distrowatch topics to profile the topic starters ).

If you follow the forums, like Allan says, there is a clear trend that has been going on for months already - noobs flowing in. Redundant topics popping up. Ridiculous questions being asked. Every distro needs fresh blood, but you don't want to drown in it . The worst thing is not the influx of new people, the worst thing is some of them seem to think they have a fresh view on things and demand (yes, demand) things be changed. It's what ancient Greeks would have called hybris - defying the gods. But then again...

dunc wrote:

There are problems with a "newbie forum" - there's nothing to stop someone spamming it with useless posts to increase their count

There are tons of useless posts outside of the newbie forum too. That being said, the newbie forum is for some people a free pass to just ask whatever - Ubuntu-level newbie questions (not Arch-level newbie questions), and that saddens me, frankly.

There there may be technical difficulties in implementing it; it's a bit tough on current users under the cut-off point (you might have to admit them to the "full" forums to start off, with some heavy advance warning for long-time users who don't post much)

There is no reason at all to waste any code on that, really. We have mods for that. I am completely in favour of a two-week moratorium on posting after registration though .

and it certainly would look elitist to outsiders, whatever the intention

There's always criticism. That doesn't mean it's warranted.

jelly · 2009-08-13 07:02:15

Boromini:
You exactly point out what is going on, not only the forums are under getting spammed with new extremely noob posts, also IRC is a bit flooded with much newbie. Somethimes this tends to a bit 'agressive' reply's like read the wiki etc.

I think we still need to stay calm and keep acting normal and hope that from the newbie 50% get's the point or more, the philosophy, the arch way. I have no data to back this up , i saw some conversations in #archlinux ,

that was like so arch is like ubuntu but better ?

As opensource community it's a very positive to get more users and usershare because that leads to more awarenenss -> better drivers ?? Profit.

Last edited by jelly (2009-08-13 07:09:08)

.:B:. · 2009-08-13 08:36:46

For better drivers you need pressure, and the thing is - just like in real life - there is an overwhelmingly silent majority that couldn't care less even if they would have to bend over. In fact, it's like that now already. They won't be mobilised, by whatever means. Look at the Windows/OS X userbase c.q. fanbase (:P) and you'll see to what lengths companies can go without their consumers stepping up and asking questions.

Of course, for Linux this is different - Linux is for 99% of its userbase a deliberate choice and the average user's skill level is a lot higher - although nowadays, with the advent of Ubuntu and derivatives, this is getting less and less true. Less skills and knowledge usually implies less opiniated users, and less opiniated users means less polarisation. You need polarisation to have people reflect upon things and lend their support to a cause. That, and the fact most users will conveniently blame their distro of choice for the inherent weaknesses of Linux (lack of corporate support when it comes to popular applications and certain hardware) instead of blaming the real guilty parties, means that a growing userbase hardly translates into bigger pressure on corporations to provide Linux drivers or port their applications.

jelly · 2009-08-13 09:38:38

B wrote:

Of course, for Linux this is different - Linux is for 99% of its userbase a deliberate choice and the average user's skill level is a lot higher - although nowadays, with the advent of Ubuntu and derivatives, this is getting less and less true. Less skills and knowledge usually implies less opiniated users, and less opiniated users means less polarisation. You need polarisation to have people reflect upon things and lend their support to a cause. That, and the fact most users will conveniently blame their distro of choice for the inherent weaknesses of Linux (lack of corporate support when it comes to popular applications and certain hardware) instead of blaming the real guilty parties, means that a growing userbase hardly translates into bigger pressure on corporations to provide Linux drivers or port their applications.

Yeah you are right!

** still wonders why noobs go to ArchLinux and be like "xorg dont start ". There must be some ppl in the ubuntu community advertising us.

Well i know there are two ubuntu ops in #archlinux-offtopic hmmmm... strange

Ontopic:
Why dont we just accept that we are getting popular/etc. and focus on bugs/exploits/security/features/development etc.

offtopic: @B - i bet you are bored at work , just like me;)

Last edited by jelly (2009-08-13 09:39:16)

oddsocks · 2009-08-13 10:37:03

I think Arch trending up may also to do with the fact that those people who are more 'computer-minded' (I couldn't think of another way to put this, i guess geeks might have been better) who found out about ubuntu and fedora and the other distributions who want something more now are looking to other distros which can provide this. Well at least its why I chose Arch and moved to it. I personally tried Gentoo first after moving from the more easier distros, then found out about Arch through the Gentoo forums (which as an afterthought seems a bit weird), and although difficult at first, since its something new, I have to say it does everything I need, and I also got to tinker and learn more about how the Linux system works.

jelly · 2009-08-13 10:54:40

hm the main problem i have with some new users is that they don't read, some questions are so easy to find in the wiki plus some users don't provide enough information etc.

.:B:. · 2009-08-13 11:05:58

Well #zenwalk has an Ubuntu op/mod too if I'm not mistaken. But yes, Arch has been heavily pushed on the Other OS subforum I understood from that same guy, to the point it got locked . I bet it will be the same like with Gentoo before - get hyped, get overrun, try to survive. I can only hope Arch will survive the influx better - that's up to the dev team that it doesn't get infiltrated.

Oh and - Arch has no bugs!

Wait. Maybe that was phrik?

jelly · 2009-08-13 12:02:14

B wrote:

Well #zenwalk has an Ubuntu op/mod too if I'm not mistaken. But yes, Arch has been heavily pushed on the Other OS subforum I understood from that same guy, to the point it got locked . I bet it will be the same like with Gentoo before - get hyped, get overrun, try to survive. I can only hope Arch will survive the influx better - that's up to the dev team that it doesn't get infiltrated.
Oh and - Arch has no bugs!
Wait. Maybe that was phrik?

Hmm good point , but also be aware that the forums also need to be clean, tidy and userfriendly.

Well the ubuntu section got closed , let's take a look at the gentoo one

oh and yeah that was !bugs ( /me spends too much time with phrik )

sand_man · 2009-08-13 12:14:33

jelly wrote:

B wrote:
Well #zenwalk has an Ubuntu op/mod too if I'm not mistaken. But yes, Arch has been heavily pushed on the Other OS subforum I understood from that same guy, to the point it got locked . I bet it will be the same like with Gentoo before - get hyped, get overrun, try to survive. I can only hope Arch will survive the influx better - that's up to the dev team that it doesn't get infiltrated.
Oh and - Arch has no bugs!
Wait. Maybe that was phrik?
Hmm good point , but also be aware that the forums also need to be clean, tidy and userfriendly.
Well the ubuntu section got closed , let's take a look at the gentoo one
oh and yeah that was !bugs ( /me spends too much time with phrik )

ok I'm lost. I have no idea what you guys are on about now..ใ

KimTjik · 2009-08-13 12:43:03

B wrote:

Of course, for Linux this is different - Linux is for 99% of its userbase a deliberate choice and the average user's skill level is a lot higher - although nowadays, with the advent of Ubuntu and derivatives, this is getting less and less true. Less skills and knowledge usually implies less opiniated users, and less opiniated users means less polarisation. You need polarisation to have people reflect upon things and lend their support to a cause. That, and the fact most users will conveniently blame their distro of choice for the inherent weaknesses of Linux (lack of corporate support when it comes to popular applications and certain hardware) instead of blaming the real guilty parties, means that a growing userbase hardly translates into bigger pressure on corporations to provide Linux drivers or port their applications.

This is an unfortunate trend that is spreading among the ones who should know better as well, and not something Arch specific. I've noticed an increase of harsh criticism on the Web against even positive activism, activism to increase awareness. There's a feel good, cosy, everything will be served at plate if we pretend that Linux didn't develop on the basis of FOSS. I don't understand whether there's a hidden agenda behind this or not. They who promote these ideas also demand that the total community of Linux change and become "reasonable", e g comply to their opinion. Usually this is followed up by some quick notes about "this is what Linux really need".

I see a pattern here: patience and willingness to get dirty to achieve something better is lacking among they who obviously know quite a lot. No surprise that this attitude is easily picked up by already impatient newcomers, maybe impressed by a catchy article somewhere that on the surface seems to make total sense.

I also concur that there's no way to avoid criticism. No criticism is likely a sign of being a fast food product with no specific taste. One of the best initiatives in recent years, in my opinion, was the Arch statement about it not being a democracy. Good, they who're upset with values they don't understand were upset and keep on moaning about it, but they who understood the point and were humble enough to realize that Arch is built upon certain principles appreciated the initiative.

As long as there's a strong core of users I believe it's possible to handle the flood of newcomers. I'm sure the flood is also bringing Arch some useful brainpower for the future, and they will outdo the temporary annoyance of "spam".

Last edited by KimTjik (2009-08-13 12:45:22)

ataraxia · 2009-08-13 15:27:20

B wrote:

There there may be technical difficulties in implementing it; it's a bit tough on current users under the cut-off point (you might have to admit them to the "full" forums to start off, with some heavy advance warning for long-time users who don't post much)
There is no reason at all to waste any code on that, really. We have mods for that. I am completely in favour of a two-week moratorium on posting after registration though .

Over at doom9.org, there's a mandatory wait of (I think) 5 days before a new account can post. Seems to work fairly well.

mjheagle8 · 2009-08-13 18:55:09

clearly its because arch is the best!

.:B:. · 2009-08-13 21:05:45

broch wrote:

hybris - hubris
must be something new for you, both forms are correct (all depends on .
If you feel that pointing this out is necessary, you must be really fresh and well arrogant.

It's nice to see you play your cards. First you complain about the spelling, implying my form is wrong (otherwise you wouldn't have re-spelled it, would you?), you notice I know a bit more about it than you thought first, and you change the argument. As eloquent as you are I am sure you get this is not how a decent discussion works. I'll just leave it at that.

Gen2ly · 2009-08-14 11:16:37

B, here, may have a good point. Paraphrasing, I think he might be saying that development resources may not be matching the current growth rate. If more of a load of questions come in than TU, Developers, those in the know, can handle, then you will see alot of the flotsam and jetsam like in heavily populated distro's.

Completely off key (but not really) I'm not necessarily against an idea like when google mail first came out.

techprophet · 2009-08-14 11:30:37

peart wrote:

Just an FYI: Arch was #13 on Distrowatch on the 25th of May, 2002 (and this was even before the taco era had begun!). It had 78 HPD, which probably means all 39 of it's users clicked some link 2000 times each. The number 1 distro for that day was ... Sorcerer?!?
Warning: Clicking this link will make a dozen harmless but annoying little error message boxes open up.
Distrowatch on the Internet Archives

woah, Lindows was #9. I've never seen it that high before!

lseubert · 2009-08-14 13:40:12

While Arch has recently spiked due to the 2009.08 release, it does enjoy an overall long term upward trend, albeit a slow one. Take a look at the DistroWatch.com Distro Popularity page. Ignore the numbers for the last month, which are skewed by the 2009.08 release. Instead, look at the numbers over the past 12, 6, and 3 months.

Over the past 12 months
DistroWatch Ranking: #12
Hits per Day: 584

Over the past 6 months
DistroWatch Ranking: #10
Hits per Day: 658

Over the past 3 months
DistroWatch Ranking: #10
Hits per Day: 594

The drop off in Hits per Day in the past 3 months has similarly affected most distros over the summer. In fact, since the global recession, Hits per Day numbers have dropped, on average, across the board at DistroWatch.

To get an idea of just how powerfully a "release" can jack up DistroWatch numbers, take a look at what has happened to Arch over the past month as well as the past week.

Over the past month
DistroWatch Ranking: #7
Hits per Day: 722

Over the past week
DistroWatch Ranking: #3
Hits per Day: 1287

I recall reading that the Arch Developers and Release Team were planning on releasing a new snapshot of Arch with each major upgrade of the Linux kernel, or roughly every 3 months. With four releases per year, more or less, Arch would get some "artificially" high popularity numbers on DistroWatch.com. It would seem more popular than other distros which do not release as frequently.

jelly · 2009-08-14 14:15:41

Gen2ly wrote:

B, here, may have a good point. Paraphrasing, I think he might be saying that development resources may not be matching the current growth rate. If more of a load of questions come in than TU, Developers, those in the know, can handle, then you will see alot of the flotsam and jetsam like in heavily populated distro's.
Completely off key (but not really) I'm not necessarily against an idea like when google mail first came out.

I didnt understand what you want to tell , but i think you say that the forums are more floaded so we might need some need ops/dev/cool dudes ?

Gen2ly · 2009-08-14 20:42:32

jelly wrote:

Gen2ly wrote:
B, here, may have a good point. Paraphrasing, I think he might be saying that development resources may not be matching the current growth rate. If more of a load of questions come in than TU, Developers, those in the know, can handle, then you will see alot of the flotsam and jetsam like in heavily populated distro's.
Completely off key (but not really) I'm not necessarily against an idea like when google mail first came out.
I didnt understand what you want to tell , but i think you say that the forums are more floaded so we might need some need ops/dev/cool dudes ?

Yeah, definitely doesn't hurt. Just been noticing as I've read through other forums/bugzillas that often answers that are: complete hacks, work-arounds that will eventually break, complete reinstalls... While more ops/dev/cool dudes may be a good thing, there are also alternatives.

.:B:. · 2009-08-14 20:54:41

Gen2ly wrote:

B, here, may have a good point. Paraphrasing, I think he might be saying that development resources may not be matching the current growth rate. If more of a load of questions come in than TU, Developers, those in the know, can handle, then you will see alot of the flotsam and jetsam like in heavily populated distro's.

I was mostly saying that a changing userbase will also mean different accents, different priorities put forth by users. It is up to the developers to decide how far they want to go in satisfying them. A lot of new people will regard Arch as 'theirs' while the 'original' userbase will have the same claims and - logically, since it's been around longer - the needs of both groups will differ. The established user base will generally try to fend off new users' suggestions for improving 'userfriendliness' (which mostly go the Ubuntu way).

There's always the tension between what users want to see implemented and what devs want to implement. You'll find a lot of people who think Arch is perfect as it is, but also people who think Arch has lost its simplicity, and people who think Arch is not simple enough .

lseubert · 2009-08-14 23:52:42

B wrote:

There's always the tension between what users want to see implemented and what devs want to implement. You'll find a lot of people who think Arch is perfect as it is, but also people who think Arch has lost its simplicity, and people who think Arch is not simple enough .

There is potential tension between Arch users and developers, but less than many distros. Why? First off - rolling release. Developers and users run the same basic system. Both groups want the same thing at the same time, and they create a very fast bugreport-bugfix feedback loop. This produces a lot of harmony within Arch culture.

Also, if such-and-so developer doesn't respond to the wishes of users concerning some package, another developer can put together a better package and upload it to AUR, or to a completely independent repository. KDEMod is a good example of this. Thus, Arch devs and TUs face the discipline of internal competition and outside innovation. This spurs them to pay attention to users and evolve Arch over time.

Thanks to Arch's very healthy ecosystem, developer-user conflicts are minimized. It may not be perfect, but at least Arch has ways of resolving problems that other distros do not. This article about problems with Debian highlights this. With Arch, there are ways to route around stubborn and/or unresponsive package maintainers.

whaevr · 2009-08-15 01:07:45

o.O

Arch was benched against Ubuntu?...has Phoronix ever benched arch before...

count-corrupt · 2010-01-26 00:49:24

Not all the people turning to Arch are coming fom Ubuntu you know. Many people including me come from gentoo in the past months for all kinds of reasons. Arch certainly is an atrractive distribution and that I mean more to experienced users than total newcomers. A newcomer would hardly see the really sexy aspects of Arch but, depending on his goals with linux, most likely end up using one of the big players like Fedora, SuSe or Ubuntu. I myself was determined to understand the linux fundamentals before setteling on a binary distribution when I started five years ago. And back then gentoo with all it's little problems seemed perfect way to do so. Setup everything by yourself, stumple upon as many problems as possible and learn stuff by solving them. Gentoo and I had a hell of a run that way. And I could see the difference to some friends of mine who started with Ubuntu. Now I was looking for a new distro that I might like and found Arch. It's flexible and convenient. And if you come from gentoo it really doesn't take that long to get into it.
But even though we newcomers have the ocasional question, even one that might seem trivial to you I don't want to be put into the same pot as a total newcomer to linux in general. Everyone has a different base-knowledge and different goals with linux. Arch can still be cool if you want to settle as an end-user without the need to understand what's going on under the hood. And that's partly what a forum should be for. Newbie or not.

tavianator · 2010-01-26 02:39:54

count-corrupt: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/For … Bumping.27

xd-0 · 2010-01-26 08:39:35

<ironic>
A newbie forum with one post:

*Read the wiki
*Search the forum
*Read all the news before you update
*Search the web

We will not answer any questions in here. If you get an answer you should go out and play on the lottery. When you think you are ready, come join the real forum.
</ironic>

Finally I have had the chanse to use a madeup tag in a post, it feels like a burden have been lifted from my shoulders.
But back to the topic. I agree that the various articles about Arch Linux have "helped" and also the upswing in GNU/Linux in general the last years.The taco problem can also have some effect.

My only concern is what we will do when someone with the alias "He-Man" finds his/her way here?

Arch Linux

#26 2009-08-13 06:28:11

Re: Why is Arch trending up?

#27 2009-08-13 06:45:33

Re: Why is Arch trending up?

#28 2009-08-13 07:02:15

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#29 2009-08-13 08:36:46

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#30 2009-08-13 09:38:38

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#31 2009-08-13 10:37:03

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#32 2009-08-13 10:54:40

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#33 2009-08-13 11:05:58

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#34 2009-08-13 12:02:14

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#35 2009-08-13 12:14:33

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#36 2009-08-13 12:43:03

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#37 2009-08-13 15:27:20

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#38 2009-08-13 18:55:09

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#39 2009-08-13 21:05:45

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#40 2009-08-14 11:16:37

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#41 2009-08-14 11:30:37

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#42 2009-08-14 13:40:12

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#43 2009-08-14 14:15:41

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#44 2009-08-14 20:42:32

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#45 2009-08-14 20:54:41

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#46 2009-08-14 23:52:42

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#47 2009-08-15 01:07:45

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#48 2010-01-26 00:49:24

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#49 2010-01-26 02:39:54

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#50 2010-01-26 08:39:35

Re: Why is Arch trending up?

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