Arch Linux customers

gazj · 2010-04-10 09:36:57

When I was new, I broke some things, asked some silly questions and no doubt annoyed the then old members. So I try to remember that with the new ones now. A link in the right direction will make them work it out for thereselves rather than you just pointing out the exact answer.

The only reason it may seem more prevaliant today is because there are more new users joining everyday compared to 2,3,4,5 yrs ago.

On an end note. Yay the arch devs your fantastic!

pyther · 2010-04-10 11:14:24

ngoonee wrote:

I think one of the basic problems is that a lot of users just provide direct answers to these sort of posts.
Timeline goes something like this:-
1. User A posts an inane question which could be simply solved with google/wiki.
2. User Z (long-time user/dev/moderator) reads the thread, realizes the OP did not search, and ignores it.
3. User B, C, and D (who've been using Arch for a couple of months and have maybe 50-200 posts) jump in with helpful answers which solve the immediate problem but not the help vampire tendencies (no, I'm not providing a link to 'help vampires', google it).
4. User A feels gratified for the immediate solution and expects the same reaction the next time he has an inane question.
Of course, I'm pessimistic by nature, but probably its justified in this case. I'm guilty of 3. myself though....

That sums it up perfectly!

Or... when User Z suggest to User A to google a specific term or take a look at a specific page and User B, C, D post answers, especially when they do it without any explanation!

Zariel · 2010-04-10 11:34:58

If you cant fix your system when it breaks, dont use Arch, simples.

bluesilvercan · 2010-04-10 13:13:57

Just wanted to chip in my vote of thanks as well. Both my computers in the house here are running Arch. Upstairs we have 3 people sharing one box (using the fast switcher in Gnome), and downstairs my teenage son has his own. It all works wonderfully. I'm always a little nervous because my wife would flip if something broke, but nothing ever has and I've been using Arch for a couple of years now. I'm a salesman, know nothing about programming or anything, and don't personally know anyone else that uses linux- I get all the info I need from the Wiki and all is smooth. Cheers to all the devs!

KimTjik · 2010-04-10 14:08:13

(My serious reflection on Dusty's good post on page 1) I'm probably not moving from being "old" forum user to anything else than "old grumpy"; family, responsibilities in the society and so on. What I will be better at is taking some minutes once in a while to add something to the Wiki.

It's quite obvious we're getting some ugly responses as time goes by. I couldn't decide for myself if I should write something or not, but a couple of days ago a quickly read through a thread, all participants behaving and being in good spirit. The problem was that several had "IgnorePkg" content longer than my the whole Arch Wiki (slightly exaggerated! ). Sure these things happen if for example a platform temporarily lacks working drivers, but to me those IgnorePkg-lines looked like ticking bombs. Who knows what reactions that would trigger.

I moved a SAMBA-server at work to Arch as well, as there already being my Arch workstation. Few packages installed, little hassle to maintain, and Arch seems very solid if not treated as a game-boy. I haven't been able to fail with Arch yet.

Mr.Elendig · 2010-04-10 17:03:43

Allan wrote:

Hey, my packages are bug free!

(if you ignore the gdb bug currently there)

But they tend to break everything else on the system instead!

<3

Bralkein · 2010-04-10 17:33:48

I've always been of the opinion that Arch has a pretty civilised community here on the forums. Of course you get the odd rude ungrateful so-and-so but then this is the internet after all, you can't expect miracles If you're feeling jaded then maybe go and take a look at some other internet forums, once you're reminded of what it could be like then suddenly the Arch forums will seem like high society

There are plenty of people around expressing their gratefulness too, so I don't think it's too bad.

kmason · 2010-04-10 17:40:21

skottish wrote:

Dusty wrote:
It's always been like this, actually, it's just that the forum is constantly getting bigger, and more importantly, the old "new" members become the new "old" members, the old "old" members get crotchety, and the old crotchety members become devs, and the old devs quit frequenting the forums. Generally when someone starts thinking the forum has changed, it's actually their perception.
The really really old twice-ex-devs come in here every once in a while to tell everyone nothing's changed.
Dusty
With skills comes the greater urge to run... (for some anyway)

There are 34,107 registered users to the forum at the time that I started this post. With a forum community 10% as large as the Ubuntu community of Greater Ajo Arizona, there's going to be 'nay-sayers'.

Heh. Ajo, Arizona, is that where you come from? I live in the Phoenix Area, lol, and I definitely get the joke (Ajo is a pretty damn small town).

Anyways, I think that pebkac is the problem that most users come to in all linux distributions, not just ArchLinux. However, ArchLinux is different than most distributions, in the fact that its not geared towards your average end user. It is geared towards those who like to fix problems themselves, and then ask for help as a last resort, of which that last resort is rarely used, seeing how there is plenty of resources online for fixing their problem - ArchLinux and Linux as a whole is generally very well documented.

However, if the user who tries ArchLinux is different than the target audience of DIYers, that user tends to get frustrated, and will most likely blow up when something isn't done for them. No offense, but I say good riddance when one of those leave, as they are missing the point, and should go with a distribution where everything is set up for them, such as any distribution with a pre-installed Xwindows/DE/WM setup. Then again, they may have to do something they aren't used to - look up which distribution comes with their environment of choice.

So, my conclusion is, whenever we see someone who isn't a DIYer, and wants everything done for them, we should direct them to Distrowatch.com, and ask them to find a distribution that is already set up for them. I know, it sounds harsh, and may lose a lot of "customers", but it also might be a good PR move, as then people won't say bad things about the community, simply because they walked into it unprepared.

skottish · 2010-04-10 17:45:56

kmason wrote:

Heh. Ajo, Arizona, is that where you come from? I live in the Phoenix Area, lol, and I definitely get the joke (Ajo is a pretty damn small town).

I grew up near McClintock and Guadalupe in Tempe.

kmason · 2010-04-10 17:53:08

skottish wrote:

kmason wrote:
Heh. Ajo, Arizona, is that where you come from? I live in the Phoenix Area, lol, and I definitely get the joke (Ajo is a pretty damn small town).
I grew up near McClintock and Guadalupe in Tempe.

Holy... That's like, within walking distance from my house! (Guadalupe and Price)

daf666 · 2010-04-10 18:01:33

Best candidate for topics going nowhere ever?

fabertawe · 2010-04-10 18:14:38

I've had a few "issues" in the short time I've been using Arch but that goes with the territory. I actually enjoy fixing problems when they arise, in a masochistic kind of way I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Devs and the incredible amount of effort they put in. I like the no nonsense approach of this distro.

skanky · 2010-04-10 19:49:28

Zariel wrote:

If you cant fix your system when it breaks, dont use Arch, simples.

If you cant break your system when it's fixed, dont use Arch, simples.

Acecero · 2010-04-10 20:00:33

Mr.Elendig wrote:

Allan wrote:
Hey, my packages are bug free!

(if you ignore the gdb bug currently there)
But they tend to break everything else on the system instead!
<3

Think of this in a positive way. He is at least not trying to break his own packages.

kmason · 2010-04-10 21:29:24

skanky wrote:

Zariel wrote:
If you cant fix your system when it breaks, dont use Arch, simples.
If you cant break your system when it's fixed, dont use Arch, simples.

Amen to that!

cool · 2010-04-10 21:57:34

Of all distros ArchLinux sucks less.

just one gripe, Please improve mirror syncing arrangement

lasu1 · 2010-04-10 23:24:55

ataraxia wrote:

The only time I break things is when I do something (on purpose) that's dangerous and likely to cause trouble. Then I fix it myself. 95% of trouble people have running Arch appears to be self-caused. Those are also the loudest complainers. Lately, I've been seriously considering leaving this community (while still using the distro itself). Whatever happened to the "old" Arch community, where it was basically "Know what you're doing or GTFO"? It used to be that Arch was what you ran if you knew enough to roll your own distro, but were too lazy. Now it's apparently for people who hear somewhere how good it is, and then show up expecting to be hand-held, often abusing the devs and TUs when that doesn't happen.

Hmm, surprisingly from a fellow Pittsburgher ;-)

First, I disagree. In fact, I dredged up some threads from 2003. Guess what? People were doing ridiculous things back then, too.

Second, one should never abuse volunteers on <ANY> project -- that is, Arch Linux, Ubuntu, Red Cross, BSD, or the guy who picks up trash on highways. If someone does something for passion, and not for pay, they deserve respect. Period. So, this problem is not inherent to the Arch community -- it's a problem with people being dicks.

Actually, I'm going to expand the second point: people shouldn't be dicks to anyone who does work. One should respect the labor of their fellow man. If a user doesn't show respect to one who labors for Arch; then, yes, perhaps they need to look elsewhere.

Third, if someone comes to the board and is upset about borking their system...well...so what? Either help them, or don't help them -- but we shouldn't make threads complaining about them. It is a free distrobution, open to all. There is not a "Linux" test required in order to download the .iso.

In fact, in my opinion, Arch is the best platform I've --ever-- run a computer on. I love the fact that this is something I can share with others--even some others who might not know any Linux. Read: my girlfriend.

Fourth, remember that it can be quite jarring for someone to experience the freedom of Arch. I speak from my own experience, here. The world of Linux is full of distrobutions. The Arch world is full of SO MANY shiny things to try. The freedom can, literally, be overwhelming. For me, Arch was the first time in which I truly felt "in control" of my system. It sounds ridiculous, but I found a higher level of interaction with my hardware. However, with the freedom to create a system, comes the freedom to inadvertantly destroy it.

Lastly, I've borked my Arch install numerous times. Every time, it was my own fault. Through that process, I've learned alot about proper backup procedures, and proper system administrator practices. But, this was a process. I had to learn to handle the freedom of an Arch installation with responsibility. Thankfully, the forums and IRC channel were here to help me with that process.

My point here is that, perhaps, rather than create threads which attempt to divest a community of its unity, that we instead focus on fostering a sense of responsibility which comes with the freedom which Arch has given us.

Spacenick · 2010-04-10 23:32:32

Hurray to the devs from me as well. Even though I've been using quite exclusively for the last 4 years I feel like a n00b here but that's ok because I know I will try to learn and not complain.
Ok I'm posting the issues I have and really like it when I get help, but thats because I think helping is great and I wan't to help others myself.
I also think that when keeping things polite and excusing yourself when you do say something stupid like I did a few days back in the "Tux in Arch" thread you can still be part of the community even if you need help sometimes. And I mean there is really nobody here I think who doesn't need help from time to time. Even the devs will need help sometimes from upstream to get something (maybe even their own system) working.
I also think that there is a huge difference in what one starts a thread for. For example when I've got a regression or a hardware issue the barrier to posting it on the forum for me is much smaller because things like that can be a warning to other members, a headsup to the devs and a space where one can post hints and solutions.
That is not something like "How do I install apache" because it's mostly current and so there might be little information available. And it can also serve as additional information to hunt the problem down which might help the devs save time as well.

Last edited by Spacenick (2010-04-10 23:50:36)

Acecero · 2010-04-11 03:59:09

Dusty wrote:

It's always been like this, actually, it's just that the forum is constantly getting bigger, and more importantly, the old "new" members become the new "old" members, the old "old" members get crotchety, and the old crotchety members become devs, and the old devs quit frequenting the forums. Generally when someone starts thinking the forum has changed, it's actually their perception.
The really really old twice-ex-devs come in here every once in a while to tell everyone nothing's changed.
Dusty

Now I have a question. Are the members seniority based on their postcounts or the registration date?

Last edited by Acecero (2010-04-11 04:14:34)

Allan · 2010-04-11 04:17:35

Probably a combination...

Edit: there is probably a good correlation between the two.

bones · 2010-04-11 05:59:11

When I have problems with Arch, which is rare, I find that it is mostly caused by the loose nut between the keyboard and the chair and if not a quick forum or google search finds the solution. So no complaints here. The devs do a fantastic job.

XFire · 2010-04-11 06:59:00

The only times that Arch have died is when I've mutilated it in some fashion.

ngoonee · 2010-04-11 12:37:52

Hmmm, overnight my computer restarted itself with a kernel panic. While I was trying to fix it I made things worse (doing things in a rush) resulting in a hard reset in the midst of a reinstall of some packages. Cue 0-byte lib files, couldn't start X or run pacman.

Would have reinstalled back with my old distro. With Arch I now knew where the packages are kept, how to extract the requisite libraries into the right place. Hurray for Arch =p

Anikom15 · 2010-04-11 16:05:28

I had a similar situation, it started with a real bug, which I made worse by resetting in the middle of an upgrade, thankfully with the help of others I was able to fix it, and everything I messed up.

Acecero · 2010-04-11 19:46:29

Allan wrote:

Probably a combination...
Edit: there is probably a good correlation between the two.

That is what I would think, but considering older members that registered earlier might not have as much active posting involvement as a newer member could. So it's hard to correlate.

Arch Linux

#26 2010-04-10 09:36:57

Re: Arch Linux customers

#27 2010-04-10 11:14:24

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#28 2010-04-10 11:34:58

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#31 2010-04-10 17:03:43

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