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#1 2010-12-03 23:05:52

cookdav
Member
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2010-12-03
Posts: 5

Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

Ok, I'm newbie on 'Arch', but fairly seasoned on Debian-family (MEPIS,sidux), and on openSUSE.

Gotta admit, I am really LIKING this low-level installer, as a means to 'test' my Linux knowledge to date.

But, it's certainly a *slower* way to get KDE-4 running, by having to manually hack on all the individual
/etc/<yada>/yada.conf files using 'nano', rather than just boot a LiveCD all the way into run-level-5 in
one fell swoop, run a GUI-based installer, specify a username/password, and be running
KDE-4 20 minutes later!

But, I'm not complaining. smile

Let's see...where am I?

Got the basic (run-level-3) system installed to a hard-drive partition, using my existing /home partition.
[Had one small glitch to get ethernet to DHCP-acquire an IP-addr...had to "hook <some-conf?>", so
I could add 'nameserver 192.168.0.1' into 'resolv.conf' (or whatever it's name is) and get that to stick.

So, net-access works.  Was then able to do whatever else that basic-install manual said...told it to
configure me nVidia-nouveau, by creating the '20-nouveau.conf'.  Rebooted, as directed.  (Several times now.)

Tried 'Xorg -configure'.  It fails with:
1:  [drm] No DRICreatePCIBusID symbol.
2: Num created screens does not match num of detected devices.

EDIT: Oh, did read that I could grab an existing xorg.conf from another distro, but
that would be cheating, eh? smile

That's the one blocking getting to run-level-5.

I did 'jump ahead' and installed KDE-4, but of course, till I make Xorg happy, that's really not
gonna do me much good.

So, in addition to advice on configuring Xorg, one other 'forest-for-the-trees question':
  Is there a higher-level (GUI-based) approach to installing Arch, rather than using 'netinstall'?
(I did notice that other kit, recommended for 'people with unreliable networks', but that
didn't sound like me.)

TIA...

Last edited by cookdav (2010-12-03 23:11:04)


KDE-4 rules!  (Debian-family is cool.)  Haven't really tasted much of Arch yet...tbd.

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#2 2010-12-03 23:10:12

thestinger
Package Maintainer (PM)
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 478

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

you don't need an xorg.conf anymore, just start X and see if it works

Last edited by thestinger (2010-12-03 23:10:43)

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#3 2010-12-03 23:24:05

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,605

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

thestinger wrote:

you don't need an xorg.conf anymore, just start X and see if it works

It won't. X still defaults to the 'nv' driver. So if you want nouveau, you need a minimal xorg.conf, or, as cookdav did, a 20-nouveau.conf in xorg.conf.d/

@cookdav: Post /var/log/Xorg.0.log, so we can see where things go wrong.

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#4 2010-12-03 23:29:08

thestinger
Package Maintainer (PM)
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 478

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

Gusar wrote:
thestinger wrote:

you don't need an xorg.conf anymore, just start X and see if it works

It won't. X still defaults to the 'nv' driver. So if you want nouveau, you need a minimal xorg.conf, or, as cookdav did, a 20-nouveau.conf in xorg.conf.d/

@cookdav: Post /var/log/Xorg.0.log, so we can see where things go wrong.

I know, but it's Xorg -configure that's failing, not X, and he doesn't need it to work - it probably doesn't support auto-generating a config for nouveau.

He's following the Beginners' Guide, and the "Configure X" section which is flagged as optional isn't working, but that section can just be skipped with open source drivers - the guide makes you create the 20-nouveau.conf before that section with nouveau since Xorg won't detect it.

Last edited by thestinger (2010-12-03 23:32:31)

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#5 2010-12-03 23:37:18

rwd
Member
Registered: 2009-02-08
Posts: 664

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

Is there a higher-level (GUI-based) approach to installing Arch, rather than using 'netinstall'?

You might take a look at http://chakra-project.org/ . To do everything by hand the arch-way will grow on you though, it makes fixing things easier. Once it is all set up you can just upgrade it for years without having to reinstall.

Last edited by rwd (2010-12-03 23:39:07)

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#6 2010-12-03 23:39:55

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

What do you have in your 20-nouveau.conf?

Last edited by karol (2010-12-03 23:47:16)

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#7 2010-12-03 23:54:37

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,605

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

thestinger wrote:

I know, but it's Xorg -configure that's failing

Xorg -configure is a thing of the past. If a guide still says to use it, this should be changed.
The guide is also wrong when it mentions "This is required to ensure that nouveau driver is loaded. Udev is not yet smart enough to do this by itself". Udev does not handle graphics in X, never has. Udev only handles input devices. It has also nothing to to with "smarts", it's a hardcoded list. For X to use nouveau by default, a patch is needed to change said hardcoded list. I know that Gentoo applies it and they're probably not the only ones. Here's the Gentoo patch: http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewv … iew=markup

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#8 2010-12-04 00:22:58

cookdav
Member
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2010-12-03
Posts: 5

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

@rwd:  Thanks for that...I'll take a look at 'chakra' sometime.
I agree, that learning it this way, is worthwhile, which is why I
didn't just copy over an existing xorg.conf!

@whoever-said-startx:
Yup, that DOES bring up some kind of GUI/runlevel-5 thing (I think).
I've now got 3 windows, with cmd-prompts in them.  smile
[So, you're right...kill that doc-line that says to 'Xorg -configure', and
replace it with the suggestion to at least TRY to 'startx' first.]

Ok, thanks for playing folks...I'm back to knowing that my xserver
is cool.  Just need to do those cmds to tell it to get 'kdm' running, so
I can select WHICH gui to log-into, and I should be good-to-go.

Cheers and regards...

Last edited by cookdav (2010-12-04 00:33:09)


KDE-4 rules!  (Debian-family is cool.)  Haven't really tasted much of Arch yet...tbd.

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#9 2010-12-04 00:53:54

thestinger
Package Maintainer (PM)
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 478

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

Gusar wrote:
thestinger wrote:

I know, but it's Xorg -configure that's failing

Xorg -configure is a thing of the past. If a guide still says to use it, this should be changed.
The guide is also wrong when it mentions "This is required to ensure that nouveau driver is loaded. Udev is not yet smart enough to do this by itself". Udev does not handle graphics in X, never has. Udev only handles input devices. It has also nothing to to with "smarts", it's a hardcoded list. For X to use nouveau by default, a patch is needed to change said hardcoded list. I know that Gentoo applies it and they're probably not the only ones. Here's the Gentoo patch: http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewv … iew=markup

I fixed the nouveau section, but it's going to take longer before it's fully up to date tongue. We're done a lot of work though in the past few days as you can see here - on the 25th, the guide still got people to set up X with the pre-hotplugging drivers, and nouveau was barely mentioned.

Last edited by thestinger (2010-12-04 00:55:46)

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#10 2010-12-04 01:39:21

cookdav
Member
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2010-12-03
Posts: 5

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

Hey, no problem from here, on the doc.  I'm sure that'll get fixed, when someone gets 'round-tuit'.

As I hoped, all I needed to do was follow those docs, add 'dbus hal ... kdm' into that DAEMON vector.
Re-booted the system and came right up in KDE-4.  (KDE-4.5.4, no less!)  Very nice.

I'm posting this from 'Arch', in chrome...book-marks synced and ready for business!

[Well, almost.  I had forgotten that I also leap-frogged setting up sound (alsa).  But, for now, I
can live without 'tunes'.  I'm happy, just being in 'start-of-the-art' KDE-4.  I'll config the audio another day.]
smile  smile  smile

Last edited by cookdav (2010-12-04 01:41:13)


KDE-4 rules!  (Debian-family is cool.)  Haven't really tasted much of Arch yet...tbd.

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#11 2010-12-07 03:31:10

cookdav
Member
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2010-12-03
Posts: 5

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

rwd wrote:

Is there a higher-level (GUI-based) approach to installing Arch, rather than using 'netinstall'?

You might take a look at http://chakra-project.org/ . To do everything by hand the arch-way will grow on you though, it makes fixing things easier. Once it is all set up you can just upgrade it for years without having to reinstall.

I did a second install of 'arch', this time on my laptop's "Linux distro #2" partition". [MEPIS/Debian still holds my slot#1.] 
Once 'wifi', and 'sound' and those sorts of tedious issues came into play, I quickly switched gears, re-installed via GUI:
took 'Chakra' (i686) 0.2.4 for a spin.

Yup, this isn't the wave of the future...it's long overdue for 'arch' NOW, imo.

Much nicer!  I highly recommend it.  The graphics in the 'Tribe' (GUI) installer are great eye-candy, and you
get automatic xserver and sound configuration, transparently (as you should).  And, 'netcfg' gets auto-installed.
(Come on, folks, (think 'wifi')...'netcfg' package ought be defaulted in a netinstall of 'arch', too!  This IS the 21st century. roll )

Once Chakra goes 'beta', I'd recommend that all of you 'old school' arch-lovers take it for a spin. smile

Last edited by cookdav (2010-12-07 03:52:46)


KDE-4 rules!  (Debian-family is cool.)  Haven't really tasted much of Arch yet...tbd.

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#12 2010-12-07 11:35:40

rwd
Member
Registered: 2009-02-08
Posts: 664

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

I think Chakra takes an interesting approach but their goals and audience differ from Arch Linux. Making things more slick and gui oriented in practice means reducing choice and forcing defaults, and   people come to Arch especially because it has no defaults.  Some actually prefer doing things by the commandline because it gives more control and in some ways makes things more simple. And most prefer their own mix of minimalist window manager, panels and tools instead of an all-in-one solution such as KDE.

Last edited by rwd (2010-12-07 14:50:19)

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#13 2010-12-07 14:48:59

cookdav
Member
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2010-12-03
Posts: 5

Re: Xorg-config isn't yet, trying nVidia-nouveau, on a desktop machine...

I agree with 'some like the control of cmd-line, to achieve non-default settings', but I'd argue that
doing the installation using a LiveCD like Chakra OUGHT to allow the 'same' choices and flexibility
that the cmd-line method does.

However, in my view, the 'cmd-line' approach seemed to leave out actually forcing (guiding the
user thru a script that causes 'sound' and 'wifi' pre-requisites to actually get installed)!  (The
'netcfg' package is a prime example.)  Instead, the user follows a written document (e.g. either
'basic' or 'complete' arch manuals, which mention subjects like 'sound' and 'wifi', but then do
NOT even detect presence of 'wifi-adapter' or 'sound' hardware, etc.  In other words, if
ANY wifi-hardware is detected, the 'netcfg' package should get installed, but clearly doesn't.
Rather, it relies on the person installing to somehow know/determine that they need to
manually install 'netcfg' (as well as then manually hunt-down their firmware, etc).

Whereas, the 'Chakra' (GUI) approach at least makes an attempt (e.g. causes 'netcfg' to
get installed transparently), easing the learning curve.

That said, the negative of the guided/GUI approach is that the person installing does NOT
then learn/understand precisely WHAT STEPS got executed for them, and thus learns very
little of what packages and what config-files need to be examined/modified to carry
out those various steps.  As I result, while I'm convinced that SUCCESSFUL 'arch' owners/users
become some of the most knowledgeable users in the details of Linux configuration,
I'm left wondering just what per-cent of newbies who first TRY Linux via 'arch',
end up succeeding with it, versus either giving up  on Linux or wandering off to some
other distro that has a more scripted/automated installer.
(i.e. an install-script/GUI that tries to get them up-and-running with minimal fuss, and allows them
to  LATER absorb the details,  via  future updates/maintenance glitches/issues.).

In other words, after my 5-10 years of Linux experience, I was surprised how much I had to
struggle, to get a working laptop-with-wifi installation.  In a word, I 'failed' the test that
arch provided me, and felt I had to resort to Chakra, to meet the other goal of getting
that laptop up-and-running with sound and wifi and xserver working.  But, maybe that's
just a reflection of our modern society's push into the "instant-gratification" direction?

Thanks to ALL who have participated in this thread, for their guidance!  As I mentioned,
I'm both humbled and more knowledgeable than I was when I started on the 'arch'
journey, just a few short days ago.

As I mentioned in the base-post, I came to 'arch' to LEARN something, and to TEST my
Linux knowledge,and I met those goals.  That said, I found it disconcerting that the manual(s)
that I read seemed to gloss over such fundamental things as not mentioning the
need to install 'netcfg' and not-resulting in some flavor of sound-support being put in place.

Last edited by cookdav (2010-12-07 14:50:22)


KDE-4 rules!  (Debian-family is cool.)  Haven't really tasted much of Arch yet...tbd.

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