[SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

jlacroix · 2011-01-28 22:00:46

I have a Dell Latitude E6410 and noticed recently that my fan is blowing constantly. I am not sure what is causing it, it doesn't seem to be overheating. I can only tell if it is overheating by feeling the bottom, because lmsensors doesn't have sensors for this model as far as I know, so I just feel the bottom, and it always feels cool.

Currently I am using kernel 2.6.35 because 2.6.36 and above is not compatible with this laptop (there was already a bug filed upstream, the fix should hopefully be in 2.6.38) so I'm not sure if the older kernel is limiting me in some way. Also, I am a KDE user, not sure if that makes any difference. Performance wise everything seems fine. As I type this, my CPU usage is 7% and the fan is blowing what I assume to be its loudest.

Is there some sort of post-install configuration I should be doing to help my machine manage its resources better, or perhaps it's not using ACPI as it should?

Last edited by jlacroix (2011-03-01 18:02:53)

jlacroix · 2011-01-29 03:05:21

I think I know what is causing my issues. Now only one question remains. I was looking at laptop mode tools in the wiki, and it references being able to spin down the hard disk when activity isn't heavy. However, it mentions HAL polling, is that required still? KDE deprecated HAL so I'm not sure if I still need that for the hard drive control to function, or is there a better way?

MadTux · 2011-01-29 07:20:04

HAL is no longer required by KDE and spinning down the hdd should be done by hdparm, if I remember correctly. Looking at the package laptop-mode-tools, there are no dependencies on HAL.

Do you have cpufrequtils installed? It is intende to scale down cpu frequency if on a low load. The things that I usually install on a laptop:
- cpufrequtils, and I put the daemon cpufreq in /etc/rc.conf
- pm-utils for suspend/resume
- acpid, and I put acpid in /etc/rc.conf

Another thing that you should check is whether there is dust inside the laptop and especially on the fan. Dust on the fan makes it less efficient and therefore the fans have to do more work.

quarkup · 2011-01-29 12:16:05

use cpufreq (check wiki for that) - use the governor 'conservative' or 'ondemand' so your processor does not get as hot (therefore the fan's speed will get lower, less noisy)

jlacroix · 2011-01-29 15:50:16

Thanks guys, I tried all of that and consulted the wiki through and through, but I still have some problems, and confusion.

1.) As for cpufreq, it doesn't work well on my setup, because support for it was removed in KDE as of KDE 4.5, as they opted instead to let the kernel handle it. The kernel doesn't handle it by default in my setup). I enabled the ondemand governor in /etc/conf.d/cpufreq and added cpufreq-ondemand to my modules, and it still will never power down the CPU.

2.) The Wiki states that in KDE, you can add the command "solid-powermanagement set cpufreq ondemand" in Power Devil in a script to get it to load the proper governor as it used to. Unfortunately, solid-powermanagement is not a command my system recognizes, thus this won't work either. Perhaps this command was changed/removed in KDE 4.6 and the wiki hasn't been updated yet?

3.) If I run the powernowd daemon, it will in fact power down my CPU's. However, that is from AUR, and I'd rather not rely on AUR packages.

4.) Even with the CPU's being powered down, the fan is still loud. I am thinking it's the hard drive generating the heat (there is no dust build-up, I already cleaned the inside out). While the hdparm package doesn't call for a dependency on hal, the wiki for laptop mode tools still mentions it in the following chunk of code that it tells you to edit:

# hal-polling.conf
# ThinkPad T40/T42/T60 Example
#
DEBUG=0
CONTROL_HAL_POLLING=1
BATT_DISABLE_HAL_POLLING=1
AC_DISABLE_HAL_POLLING=1
HAL_POLLING_DEVICES="/dev/scd?"

That is why I think hal is required, since it calls it "HAL_POLLING." Even worse, it tells me to edit that block of code in "/etc/laptop-mode/laptop-mode.conf" but the code is not there.

Sorry to be a pest, but this is the only case where reading the wiki has confused me more

jlacroix · 2011-01-29 16:26:38

Nevermind, I figured out the CPU frequency stuff.

Now I just need help with item 4, the hdparm stuff.

Last edited by jlacroix (2011-01-29 16:38:51)

smartass · 2011-02-27 17:20:39

I recommend you use laptop-mode-tolls for controlling CPU scaling (because it loads the right modules only when needed), hdd spin-down and hdparm values setting. The configuration is much more centralized and therefore more KISS IMHO. It's also much closer to the kernel (it utilizes an actual kernel operating mode) and thus should work even if higher-level programs fail or crash.

Works for me, when idle on battery (and running full 4.6 KDE - which I think is the most resource demanding DE, but that just comes with the full-featured KDE) my notebook is absolutely silent, both CPU fan and hdd. When working with several programs and browsing, temperature is bellow 45 C.

I think Hal poling isn't required and I agree that the wiki may be a little confusing, but if you read that snippet from the wiki you posted, it basically first attemts to control hal and then disables hal polling whenever it can (most likely to prevent polling conflicts), therefore IMO hal is not required.

Before you start playing with hdparm values, you might want to check out the thread that the link on the general Laptop wiki page under Laptop mode tools chapter points to. My understanding is that setting hdparm -B 1 can be an overkill and may shorten yours hdd's life expectancy, so I set mine to 128 when on battery.

Btw, my notebook is never actually silent when I have several apps open, surfing, etc. I think it's just because may laptop's (rather cheap) casing and design doesn't try to reduce sound, maybe your model has the same problem. But it's always significantly quieter than if I'm performing some large data analysis or compiling something, try that and you may find that your fan can be much louder.

Last edited by smartass (2011-02-27 17:35:36)

jlacroix · 2011-02-28 03:48:01

smartass wrote:

I recommend you use laptop-mode-tolls for controlling CPU scaling (because it loads the right modules only when needed), hdd spin-down and hdparm values setting. The configuration is much more centralized and therefore more KISS IMHO. It's also much closer to the kernel (it utilizes an actual kernel operating mode) and thus should work even if higher-level programs fail or crash.
Works for me, when idle on battery (and running full 4.6 KDE - which I think is the most resource demanding DE, but that just comes with the full-featured KDE) my notebook is absolutely silent, both CPU fan and hdd. When working with several programs and browsing, temperature is bellow 45 C.
I think Hal poling isn't required and I agree that the wiki may be a little confusing, but if you read that snippet from the wiki you posted, it basically first attemts to control hal and then disables hal polling whenever it can (most likely to prevent polling conflicts), therefore IMO hal is not required.
Before you start playing with hdparm values, you might want to check out the thread that the link on the general Laptop wiki page under Laptop mode tools chapter points to. My understanding is that setting hdparm -B 1 can be an overkill and may shorten yours hdd's life expectancy, so I set mine to 128 when on battery.
Btw, my notebook is never actually silent when I have several apps open, surfing, etc. I think it's just because may laptop's (rather cheap) casing and design doesn't try to reduce sound, maybe your model has the same problem. But it's always significantly quieter than if I'm performing some large data analysis or compiling something, try that and you may find that your fan can be much louder.

I tried laptop-mode-tools but after about an hour of fighting with it, I couldn't get it to work (for anything, not even CPU throttling). For the CPU throttling I am using acpi-cpufreq. From the wiki for laptop-mode-tools, I'm not certain if I just need to install laptop-mode-tools, or if the other packages it mentions are required to make it work. It gives several configuration files to edit, but it doesn't say that they are actually required. Also, it mentions editing HAL, but HAL has been deprecated as far as I'm aware, that would make me think that HAL isn't required for any of this anymore?

Last edited by jlacroix (2011-02-28 03:49:25)

smartass · 2011-02-28 06:32:43

acpi_cpufreq is just the kernel module you have to load in order to be able to scale the CPU at all, that's why the wiki recommends adding it to the MODULE array in rc.conf, so it loads automatically on boot.

Laptop-mode-tools works only if added into the DAEMON array in rc.conf , make sure you didn't skip this.

HAL really isn't necessary, works for me without it and as I said, the suggested editing on the wiki just disables HAL anyway.

I'm not sure if you actually have to install cpufrequtils, but I do, because they provide additional tools like cpufreq-set or cpufreq-info, which can override laptop-mode-tools if needed. I'm also not sure if the acpid daemon is required, but it seems to work without it. Maybe it's required only for some specific features, which I don't use.
EDIT: KDE seems to load acpid anyways, so can't telll.

Of course you don't have to edit the conf files, but they are quite clearly written, with explanations. At least read them through, just so you know what you can set up.

Last edited by smartass (2011-02-28 17:10:48)

jlacroix · 2011-03-01 17:28:38

smartass wrote:

acpi_cpufreq is just the kernel module you have to load in order to be able to scale the CPU at all, that's why the wiki recommends adding it to the MODULE array in rc.conf, so it loads automatically on boot.
Laptop-mode-tools works only if added into the DAEMON array in rc.conf , make sure you didn't skip this.
HAL really isn't necessary, works for me without it and as I said, the suggested editing on the wiki just disables HAL anyway.
I'm not sure if you actually have to install cpufrequtils, but I do, because they provide additional tools like cpufreq-set or cpufreq-info, which can override laptop-mode-tools if needed. I'm also not sure if the acpid daemon is required, but it seems to work without it. Maybe it's required only for some specific features, which I don't use.
EDIT: KDE seems to load acpid anyways, so can't telll.
Of course you don't have to edit the conf files, but they are quite clearly written, with explanations. At least read them through, just so you know what you can set up.

I installed laptop-mode-tools and it seems to have increased my battery time. Right now I have around 6 hours available which is more than I had before by at least one more hour. I'm not sure what it actually did to give me more time. The laptop doesn't seem to be quieter but I'll happily accept another hour of runtime.

smartass · 2011-03-01 17:39:30

unless you have some sound optimized casing (or the option to halt the CPU when idle), don't expect your laptop to be silent when working, because the CPU and HDD will be active, so the fan just will spin up and the hdd will make some noise. But if you aren't doing anything ( or you have open applications which are idle), your hdd if laptop mode is active should spin down and your fan might too. Try to leave the notebook idle for several minutes after startup in laptop mode and if even then it is still noisy, then you maybe should investigate further.

Last edited by smartass (2011-03-01 17:52:53)

jlacroix · 2011-03-01 18:02:21

smartass wrote:

unless you have some sound optimized casing (or the option to halt the CPU when idle), don't expect your laptop to be silent when working, because the CPU and HDD will be active, so the fan just will spin up and the hdd will make some noise. But if you aren't doing anything ( or you have open applications which are idle), your hdd if laptop mode is active should spin down and your fan might too. Try to leave the notebook idle for several minutes after startup in laptop mode and if even then it is still noisy, then you maybe should investigate further.

I just left it idle for about three minutes or so and the hard drive spun down and the fan was barely noticeable. I think the combination of acpi-cpufreq in MODULES and laptop-mode in DAEMONS has fixed the problem. I'm not sure if I actually need acpi-cpufreq, so maybe I should test without that and see if laptop-mode-tools does everything.

I am marking this solved for now, because it's working. Any further testing I do will be just to make it even better.

smartass · 2011-03-01 18:29:28

Great!
According to the wiki, you do need the acpi_cpufreq module loaded to actually be able to scale down CPU and laptop-mode tools won't load it. But you can always try to do the magic without it of course ;D

I'm courious, try running "modprobe -l |grep cpufreq" after taking it out of the module array and reboot.

Also, check out that post I mentioned about the hdparm -B values, so you don't damage smth.

Last edited by smartass (2011-03-01 18:36:08)

jlacroix · 2011-03-02 02:03:18

smartass wrote:

Great!
According to the wiki, you do need the acpi_cpufreq module loaded to actually be able to scale down CPU and laptop-mode tools won't load it. But you can always try to do the magic without it of course ;D
I'm courious, try running "modprobe -l |grep cpufreq" after taking it out of the module array and reboot.
Also, check out that post I mentioned about the hdparm -B values, so you don't damage smth.

Here is what I get when I do the modprobe command:

[jlacroix@Athena ~]$ sudo modprobe -l |grep cpufreq
Password: 
kernel/drivers/cpufreq/cpufreq_ondemand.ko.gz
kernel/drivers/cpufreq/freq_table.ko.gz
kernel/drivers/cpufreq/cpufreq_conservative.ko.gz
kernel/drivers/cpufreq/cpufreq_userspace.ko.gz
kernel/drivers/cpufreq/cpufreq_stats.ko.gz
kernel/drivers/cpufreq/cpufreq_powersave.ko.gz
kernel/arch/x86/kernel/cpu/cpufreq/powernow-k8.ko.gz
kernel/arch/x86/kernel/cpu/cpufreq/pcc-cpufreq.ko.gz
kernel/arch/x86/kernel/cpu/cpufreq/speedstep-lib.ko.gz
kernel/arch/x86/kernel/cpu/cpufreq/acpi-cpufreq.ko.gz
kernel/arch/x86/kernel/cpu/cpufreq/mperf.ko.gz
kernel/arch/x86/kernel/cpu/cpufreq/p4-clockmod.ko.gz

In regards to the hdparm values, I don't see where I set that and what I should actually set it to. I mean, it does give examples but it doesn't tell me why I would choose a particular value and how it translates to minutes or what not. Also, the commandline examples for hdparm don't tell me if the changes will survive a reboot.

smartass · 2011-03-02 13:34:34

sorry, my mistake, I meant "lsmod |grep cpufreq" . The command I provided before just lists loadable modules.

hdparm: if you want to use laptop tools to set them, use the /etc/laptop-mode/laptop-mode.conf file to set hdparm values after boot. Remember to read that thread. For explanation of the hdparm values, see hdparm's man page.

jlacroix · 2011-03-02 17:24:26

smartass wrote:

sorry, my mistake, I meant "lsmod |grep cpufreq" . The command I provided before just lists loadable modules.
hdparm: if you want to use laptop tools to set them, use the /etc/laptop-mode/laptop-mode.conf file to set hdparm values after boot. Remember to read that thread. For explanation of the hdparm values, see hdparm's man page.

cpufreq_ondemand        8716  0 
freq_table              2339  1 cpufreq_ondemand

My question in regards to the hdparm values is what I should set it to. What do you recommend? When I searched Google, I found a lot of sample numbers, but no description as to what the best practice actually is.

skunktrader · 2011-03-02 17:39:11

jlacroix wrote:

My question in regards to the hdparm values is what I should set it to. What do you recommend? When I searched Google, I found a lot of sample numbers, but no description as to what the best practice actually is.

Unfortunately there is no good answer
See this thread https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=39258 for all the gory details

smartass · 2011-03-02 17:43:28

according to your output acpi_cpufreq wasn't loaded, so I doubt scaling is working. you can check that out by the command "cpufreq-info" and see what it says. if it says just performance, then I guess the wiki is right and you have to load the acpi_cpufreq from the module array

Yeah, I'm not sure either, this thread mentioned on the Laptop wiki page looks interesting,but confused me to. For example, for the moment I set my hdparm -B values for battery 128 and 254 on AC, but my Load_Cycle value still seems to rise, so I might set all to 254. I wish somebody with more experience in this area could make a final decision, but that seems unlikely.

Tell me what you think after reading it and if you're confused, maybe we could try to ressurect that thread, but I doubt that would help.

Try calculating the value like this :

how concerned (or paranoid) you are about your hdd' life
value = --------------------------------------------------------------------------
how much battery life and silence you demand

Last edited by smartass (2011-03-02 17:49:34)

jlacroix · 2011-03-02 17:55:14

smartass wrote:

according to your output acpi_cpufreq wasn't loaded, so I doubt scaling is working. you can check that out by the command "cpufreq-info" and see what it says. if it says just performance, then I guess the wiki is right and you have to load the acpi_cpufreq from the module array
Yeah, I'm not sure either, this thread mentioned on the Laptop wiki page looks interesting,but confused me to. For example, for the moment I set my hdparm -B values for battery 128 and 254 on AC, but my Load_Cycle value still seems to rise, so I might set all to 254. I wish somebody with more experience in this area could make a final decision, but that seems unlikely.
Tell me what you think after reading it and if you're confused, maybe we could try to ressurect that thread, but I doubt that would help.
Try calculating the value like this :
how concerned (or paranoid) you are about your hdd' life
value = --------------------------------------------------------------------------
how much battery life and silence you demand

My hdd is under warranty, it's brand new. If it died, I have ALL of my data in two other places, one of which is off site. Right in the middle or slightly above is what I'm thinking, but then again I'm not sure how the value correlates to performance. For example, if I set it to 254, what exactly would that do?

smartass · 2011-03-02 18:00:07

Nearly turns off (for turning off it's 255, but some drives don't support that) advanced power save features of the hdd. Results in better I/O performance but does not permit spinning down (at least according to hdparm's manpage).

I have mine at 128- exact middle for battery, but I'm going to experiment a bit, so don't take this as the ultimate answer

Last edited by smartass (2011-03-02 18:03:15)

jlacroix · 2011-03-03 04:24:55

smartass wrote:

Nearly turns off (for turning off it's 255, but some drives don't support that) advanced power save features of the hdd. Results in better I/O performance but does not permit spinning down (at least according to hdparm's manpage).
I have mine at 128- exact middle for battery, but I'm going to experiment a bit, so don't take this as the ultimate answer

I guess I'm still a bit confused. What should I put as the number if I want it to spin down after some sort of non activity? What do most distributions (such as Ubuntu) prefer? I am pretty sure Ubuntu does this but I haven't used that in over a year.

jlacroix · 2011-03-03 18:02:36

Right now my hdparm values are set to 254. I haven't changed it, so this must be the default. How safe is this? Is it just the number of seconds until the disk times out or something?

smartass · 2011-03-03 20:50:42

It seems Ubuntu and others don't use laptop-mode-tools, don't know why. I think it's because they prefer to have power management apps with GUI support.

I don't think the value actually has any precise meaning, it's more of a scale applied to many different factors, like spinning down, parking etc.

Mine was set defaultly to 1 for battery and 254 otherwise. Maybe you didn't look at the values for hdparm -B but hdparm -S.

I think 254 could be considered safe (provided that it's any dangerous and we aren't just paranoid) becuase it doesn't attempt to spin down or do anything else.

Last edited by smartass (2011-03-03 20:54:54)

jlacroix · 2011-03-03 21:52:17

smartass wrote:

It seems Ubuntu and others don't use laptop-mode-tools, don't know why. I think it's because they prefer to have power management apps with GUI support.
I don't think the value actually has any precise meaning, it's more of a scale applied to many different factors, like spinning down, parking etc.
Mine was set defaultly to 1 for battery and 254 otherwise. Maybe you didn't look at the values for hdparm -B but hdparm -S.
I think 254 could be considered safe (provided that it's any dangerous and we aren't just paranoid) becuase it doesn't attempt to spin down or do anything else.

I was looking at the config file. Those were the values in the config file. I just want a decent balance with battery life and low noise. What value should I use for that?

skunktrader · 2011-03-03 22:03:08

If you read the thread we linked to above, the other issue you need to consider is the load cycle count of the drive. If you set the threshold "too low" then the drive will be continually starting and stopping which will be good for battery life (since the drive will be off whenever there is no IO) but bad for the drive (because there is a finite number of load cycles before the drive dies). You need to make a judgement call based on your usage patterns.

Arch Linux

#1 2011-01-28 22:00:46

[SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#2 2011-01-29 03:05:21

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#3 2011-01-29 07:20:04

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#4 2011-01-29 12:16:05

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#5 2011-01-29 15:50:16

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#6 2011-01-29 16:26:38

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#7 2011-02-27 17:20:39

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#8 2011-02-28 03:48:01

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#9 2011-02-28 06:32:43

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#10 2011-03-01 17:28:38

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#11 2011-03-01 17:39:30

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#12 2011-03-01 18:02:21

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#13 2011-03-01 18:29:28

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#14 2011-03-02 02:03:18

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#15 2011-03-02 13:34:34

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#16 2011-03-02 17:24:26

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#17 2011-03-02 17:39:11

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#18 2011-03-02 17:43:28

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#19 2011-03-02 17:55:14

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#20 2011-03-02 18:00:07

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#21 2011-03-03 04:24:55

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#22 2011-03-03 18:02:36

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#23 2011-03-03 20:50:42

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#24 2011-03-03 21:52:17

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

#25 2011-03-03 22:03:08

Re: [SOLVED] Fan Constantly Running (Latitude E6410)

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