idea for "newbs help"

Kern · 2005-03-31 11:45:21

having seen some of the disparaging remarks made by some regulars annoyed with the fact that "newbs" already ask questions addressed by the wiki or ask in the wrong place, or ask in the wrong manner or use.... blah blah blah :

Would it be an idea to put the Wiki above the Forums link on the Arch homepage.
and maybe change it to FAQ/Wiki . Maybe this will help in the same way as the AAAA cab company is likely to get more calls than SmartCabs in the Yellow pages.

it really tee's me off that instead of a polite "maybe try this address, and come back if you have any specifice questions" <point at FAQ / Wiki>, theres the type of reply that seems to belittle the "newbs" attempt to get help, because they havent followed the correct protocol.

Try and view the homepage as a newb, where would YOU go first. ?

Does a "newb" understand the term wiki .... can any "regular" tell me what wiki stands for without having to google for it.

Dare i ask this as it maybe too "newb" a question

incinerator · 2005-03-31 12:04:52

Why not send them a MEPIS CD instead ;-)

Kern · 2005-03-31 22:16:21

Now

Support / Community
·Wiki / Docs
·User Forums

thx whoever

miqorz · 2005-03-31 23:27:29

Maybe they'd be better off with Ubuntu or Mandrake?

Arch isn't targeted for the type of user who doesn't understand what a wiki is. Just check the "About" page.

phrakture · 2005-03-31 23:34:30

Kern wrote:

Does a "newb" understand the term wiki .... can any "regular" tell me what wiki stands for without having to google for it.

yes, anyone on the internet today understands it - it's like saying "google it" or "get me a kleenex" - named-brands strapped on top of the actual words.... everyone knows wikipedia...

and IIRC, "wiki" is hawaiian (think tiki torches) for something like "good" or "fast" or something lame like that.... (good-pedia, fast-pedia,...)

Kern · 2005-04-01 11:19:13

yes, anyone on the internet today understands it

ummmm, i didnt 'til i clicked it, and figured what it was from the content.

However when i googled for a definiton, which led me a merry chase, everyone quoted it, but it took time to find an actual explanation.

just asked my g/f, she thought it was part of a fence !

Had to google IIRC too hehehe.
Always a first time, isnt there. Thank heavens for polite replies.

Edit:

it took me a while to figure out what a miqorz was, til i mated the posts with the logo, this is the Forums trollbot isnt it

cactus · 2005-04-01 11:27:08

phrakture wrote:

and IIRC, "wiki" is hawaiian (think tiki torches) for something like "good" or "fast" or something lame like that.... (good-pedia, fast-pedia,...)

"Wiki Wiki" in hawaiian is "quick", or "super-fast". Wiki is a derivative of that. The original wiki was developed for the Portland Pattern Repository by Ward Cunningham.
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WelcomeVisitors

Where da kine stay?

phrakture · 2005-04-01 15:38:30

Kern wrote:

Had to google IIRC too hehehe.
Always a first time, isnt there. Thank heavens for polite replies.

I've had to google IMHO before... and IANAL (I am not a lawyer) - dunno where that one came from...
another one that took me a while was "STFW" - which is like RTFM, but "search the f--- web"

lucke · 2005-04-01 17:53:57

It's obvious where IANAL came from - it brings screwing to one's mind, which makes sense when concerning lawyers ;-)

I'm going utterly mad, please stab me. Or force me to RTFW.

dtw · 2005-04-02 04:46:36

try searching google for

define: wiki

you google newbies!

now that is how to be ironic!

.:EDITED:.

tmadhavan · 2005-04-02 09:03:51

Bah was just about to say that!

Google is your friend still

Kern · 2005-04-02 12:43:14

try searching google for
Code:
define: wiki

you fucking useless google newbies!

No definitions were found for wiki.

Suggestions:

- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Search the Web for documents that contain " wiki"

dp · 2005-04-02 12:55:35

or you can ask wikipedia .. but wait: if you don0t know what a wiki is, you can't ... but you will learn recursion on this way ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

i3839 · 2005-04-02 12:59:16

Wiki software originated in the design pattern community as a way of writing and discussing pattern languages. The Portland Pattern Repository was the first wiki, established by Ward Cunningham on March 25, 1995 [1] (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiHistory). He invented the wiki name and concept, and implemented the first wiki engine. Some people maintain that only the original wiki should be called Wiki (upper case) or the WikiWikiWeb; nevertheless, Ward Cunningham's Wiki is the most popular wiki site.
Cunningham coined the term wiki after the "wiki wiki" or "quick" shuttle buses at Honolulu Airport. Wiki wiki was the first Hawaiian term he learned on his first visit to the islands, when the airport counter agent directed him to take the wiki wiki bus between terminals. According to Cunningham, "I chose wiki-wiki as an alliterative substitute for 'quick' and thereby avoided naming this stuff quick-web." [2] (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiHistory) See also: List of computer term etymologies.

Edit: dp was too fast, doh.

FUBAR · 2005-04-02 13:13:03

What about a bot on #archlinux that can "answer" questions? I've seen it on numerous channels, but of course newcomers don't know how to use it (i.e. don't know the trigger for the bot). This can easily be fixed by adding it to the topic.
I'm sure I don't have to specify how this works, but including a URL in every anwser can help newbies to look for answers themselves: I think the biggest problem is that newbies don't know where to look.
And if users can add topics that are frequently asked, that would be very easy too, something like an IRC Wiki but with shorter answers and more URL's to visit for the entire explanation.

klapmuetz · 2005-04-02 14:05:03

Why not use the wiki? It's in the topic too...

I mean, how many times did someone join the channel and asked a stupid question that was obvious.

When you pointed him to the topic he answered:

"I don't read topics."
"I didn't came here to read wikis"
"I didn't came here to read the forum"
<insert something fucked up here>

Seperate the channels to something like #archlinux-newbies, #archlinux or something.

On join of #archlinux they get a PM from a NagBot that if they have basic question they should ask them in the newbies channel.

P.S.
Put "pacman -Syu before asking questions" in the topic again.
Then people have something of value to point to.
That is the first thing I remember about archlinux. And I'm sure not the only one.

BR,
klapmuetz

DarkPath · 2005-04-02 20:00:41

I agree wholeheartedly with the ArchLinux ideals that the user should know what's going on in his/her system. That's part of the reason I started using Arch... so that I could really learn the inner workings of it all. Believe me, after sucessfully configuring my system over and over after some reinstalls and trying to get so many different things working that I'd never had to bother with before (3D acceleration, manually setting up CUPS, learning things about my system in Linux I've never thought about, etc) I've come a long way in a relatively short amount of time.

Now, I've read man pages, the Arch Wiki (which was REALLY helpful for a lot of topics), and asked a few things on IRC, but I've been reluctant to post questions to the forum and somewhat reluctant to ask everything on IRC because of some of the feedback I've seen some questions get here. I've got to say that while the Arch community seems to be one of the most intelligent I've come across, I've also seem some short and terse responses toward "newbie" questions. All I can say is that someone asking for help doesn't necessarily mean they want something done for them... it could mean that they've searched and haven't found the answer. Another possibility is that the time required to search for/find/implement the solution to a problem could be significantly reduced just by asking someone in the know.

I think I've started rambling, but my point is that not every new person is a "newbie" in the full sense of the word... some are really trying to learn things and while doing things on your own is very helpful, sometimes getting some help can be greatly appreciated. You never have a second chance to make a first impression, so don't be an ass to someone asking a question... they might really be trying to learn.

I must say, however, Arch has seemed to step up to the influx of new people as of late. I've been trolling the boards ever since I came across Arch and it seems a lot of people are trying to help others when the can. I really like the Arch community and hopefully it'll only get better.

Kern · 2005-04-03 00:41:46

I've got to say that while the Arch community seems to be one of the most intelligent I've come across, I've also seem some short and terse responses toward "newbie" questions.

yeh its a problem.

however, if the answer is short and to the point, like, "have you read the Wiki post on that" ? then fair comment. The regular probably knows its been covered, and its fairly basic, the newb needed pointing in the right direction.

"i think maybe you have bitten off more than you can chew, maybe try a distro that helps a while til u get on your feet" is another nice one.

unfortunately i think the type of response you mean is " Heres the answer < content> and why couldnt you have found this in the wiki and saved us some time blah blah <dismissive extra> boost my own ego at your expense.

short is one thing, trying to elevate ones own status by implying the other guy was too stupid to < check the wiki> < should have googled> < read the faq> and <isnt actually worthy of trying Arch, cos they are too newb>, is another. OK its "targetted at the experienced linux user" that doesnt mean experienced users should take the p*ss out of guys tryna ask a question.

---
hey Linus, hows this minix hack going, you were chatting about earlier.

dude, forget it, your only a unix newb, this is for experienced guys only. Have you tried windows ? Save us a lot of trouble.

---
as another regular pointed out, the people that answer dont actually represent anyone else other than their own self. and cant be held responsible as Arch advocates.

Please bear this in mind when reading a rude/terse/egotistical reply, on ANY forum, not just Arch.

ppl r ppl

miqorz · 2005-04-03 00:46:23

Or you can put in the #archlinux topic, "Please search the wiki at wiki2.archlinux.org before asking a question."

Not only will they know it's there, but the interface is self evident of it's intent.

People love to over-complicate a rather simple matter.

Kern · 2005-04-03 01:07:56

and what topic did u have in your arch linux channel ????

#archlinux-ng

pot - kettle

miqorz · 2005-04-03 01:28:32

Hmm, really?

I had absolutely no idea my channel was the official archlinux channel in which everyone in this thread was refering to.

WOW you obviously know alot.

dtw · 2005-04-04 06:02:05

i apologise for my foul language, which, while a joke, was inappropriate

miqorz · 2005-04-04 06:04:21

I've said my apologies in private to those who I felt I needed to correct my mistakes with.

While I FIRMLY back my position my actions were over the line.

kcy29581 · 2005-04-04 21:23:07

noobs, newbies, n00bs, etc,

whatever you want to call them they are just people that decided "hey I'll try that Linux thing"

Whether they decide to stay or simply try they should NOT be discouraged to try anything. I suggested Arch Linux to half my university class (basically everyone who uses Linux, around 10 guys) and we all got together and actualy installed Arch, tested it tried it out, etc. Only 3 of us including myself had used Debian along with other distros, the rest were RedHat/Mandrake/Suse guys.

We now all have switched AWAY from Arch, mainly because of the community. I stick around because I feel that most of the users here are great, only a select few annoy me....

The rest of the guys either switched to Debian and most said "aha.... Archers are ex-Debian users..." and just gave up on easy-to-update distros

Now I've introduced Gentoo (cautiously due to the compiling...) and 3 use Gentoo, love the help they get, about 4 use Debian and swear to never ever use their "forums" ever again, just trust debconf and their own experience.

So how many do you think have stuck with Arch? You're reading his post... And I still don't use it as my main OS. But I still use it and if I see a noob that has been mistreated, hopefully I'll be able to guide him. After all, we were all noobs once right?

phrakture · 2005-04-04 21:28:19

kcy29581 wrote:

We now all have switched AWAY from Arch, mainly because of the community. I stick around because I feel that most of the users here are great, only a select few annoy me....

wow... that's stunning to me... I didn't really think the view from the outside was that bad... could you (in a PM, so as not to blatantly point fingers) point out some of the things you're talking about, I'd be curious to know what it is you find so offensive (I hope it's not me :oops: )...

anything you'd like to propose in order to remedy the situation?

Arch Linux

#1 2005-03-31 11:45:21

idea for "newbs help"

#2 2005-03-31 12:04:52

Re: idea for "newbs help"

#3 2005-03-31 22:16:21

Re: idea for "newbs help"

#4 2005-03-31 23:27:29

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#5 2005-03-31 23:34:30

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#6 2005-04-01 11:19:13

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#7 2005-04-01 11:27:08

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#8 2005-04-01 15:38:30

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#9 2005-04-01 17:53:57

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