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#1 2005-04-02 07:15:53

CyberTron
Member
From: Gotland ,Sweden
Registered: 2005-03-17
Posts: 645
Website

Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Well, after some discussion here at Arch Forum about GUIs and nicer installer and such and since I have met some resistance to this I have decided to try and make an Arch Linux for newbies, keeping the philosophy alive and the easy to use pacman and so on...

I just wanna make sure that I am not breaking any GPL rules or anything?!

How is ArchLinux licenced?? is it GPL ? GNU ?

Is it ok to change what I belive needs to be changed?? or what is the restrictions? 
I would like to use pacman for packages.


I will change the name to my liking, but I will ofcourse credit ArchLinux and it's creators

much like VidaLinux (for Gentoo)

friendly wishes
CyberTron


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
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#2 2005-04-02 07:28:04

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

You might wan't to ask this question on the mailing list, as some of the devs don't often read the forums. Likely you will get quicker and more "correct" feedback from the devs by using the mailing list:
http://www.archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/arch/

Good luck!  8)


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#3 2005-04-02 07:34:33

CyberTron
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From: Gotland ,Sweden
Registered: 2005-03-17
Posts: 645
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Thanx cactus!

I will post it on the listas well..
smile


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
Kernel 2.6.14-archck1  (selfcompiled)
Enlightenment 17

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#4 2005-04-02 10:02:18

rasat
Forum Fellow
From: Finland, working in Romania
Registered: 2002-12-27
Posts: 2,176
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

CyberTron wrote:

...I have decided to try and make an Arch Linux for newbies, keeping the philosophy alive and the easy to use pacman and so on...

Take in consideration, when adding GUIs and installers, if they do things automatically then you no longer keep the philosophy of Arch alive. And it will not be proper to call e.g "Arch Newbie" or other Arch related names. Please, read the Arch Way:

# Don't let configure tools / GUIs control the system but be controlled by the user. There is nothing wrong of having GUIs as long as it follows this principle.

# Relying on GUIs to build/use your system is just going to hurt a user in the end. At some point in time a user will need to know all that some GUIs hide.

# Sooner or later you will have to find the information on the web and use net (if man is not enough). Learning how and where to find it on the net should be the first thing to learn for a newbie.

http://wiki2.archlinux.org/index.php/The%20Arch%20Way

Example, hwd (hardware detect for Arch Linux) was accepted in Arch because it doesn't auto configure but tells users how to do manually (hwd -h).

CyberTron wrote:

I would like to use pacman for packages.

If you don't plan to follow Arch philosophy, no one can stop for using Arch packages, but..... do you know how much work and effort done by the developers and here someone wants to make an "easy distro". wink

Please don't be discouraged, but think what is Arch Linux. Its much more than "just" a distro.

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#5 2005-04-02 13:24:15

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 460

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

I have decided to try and make an Arch Linux for newbies, keeping the philosophy alive and the easy to use pacman and so on...

Isn't the Arch philosophy to target a user who is either competent or is striving to gain competence?

Wouldn't You be detracting from that ethos if you then attempt to make it accessible to folks who have little interest in self development, at the expense of bloating and further complicating it with "helper Apps/addons"

dont bloat the software : educate the user.

One cant learn to swim by keeping one foot on the bank.

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#6 2005-04-02 14:07:40

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

And if configuring a certain piece of software is too horrible, then fix that software instead of slapping a wrapper frontend before it to hide the ugliness away. That way not only the users of your fork distro enjoy your work (if the wrapper iswell done and works..), but everyone using that software.

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#7 2005-04-02 15:19:14

cmp
Member
Registered: 2005-01-03
Posts: 350

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

I think it's a good idea, to make arch more userfriendly.
you could start with a better setup procedure and maybe adding parts of the wiki to the install (as text) cd, this way the user can still go the arch way.
and some auto setup procedure would be nice, but you should still be able to customize your system to your likings.
edit: if you need help, send me a private message.

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#8 2005-04-02 15:21:33

CyberTron
Member
From: Gotland ,Sweden
Registered: 2005-03-17
Posts: 645
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

ok, thanks for all the *ideas* and thoughts...

I will tr and do my best and along the way it will be fun to try and get this to work....i'll let you know what happens...


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
Kernel 2.6.14-archck1  (selfcompiled)
Enlightenment 17

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#9 2005-04-02 15:34:07

puntmuts
Member
Registered: 2005-02-22
Posts: 138

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

What is the advantage for newbies to use Arch for N00bs compared to other distributions specialized for new Linux users ? What are other newbie specialized distributions lacking so it is necessary to announce another distribution for newbies ?


Out / Gone
Mirgrating all my machines off ArchLinux . No longer part of the ArchLinux community / users .
Done. Goodbye.

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#10 2005-04-02 16:40:09

CyberTron
Member
From: Gotland ,Sweden
Registered: 2005-03-17
Posts: 645
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

because not all newbies want to have everything done for them, not everyone uses linux as a desktop machine....for example, they wanna build a firewall, what distro should you take? smoothwall? yes sure...but it isn't all that good..., Mandrake? no too big and slow,Fedora? too big and slow,  Gentoo? to hard and slow to install (but fast to run),  Arch? well, yes...it is both fast and medium to install, I wouldn't say hard, but not easy.

My idea is that if I make the installation a little bit smoother (perhaps with a nicer gui than ncurse (nothing against ncurse though)) and perhaps a few other changes that will make it easier for the newbie user...
Perhaps have a little more explaining in the installer itself....

I can understand that most of the people here in these forums are not newbies, and will not use "my" fictional distribution, but what about everyone else that are sick of mandrake, redhat, suse and all the others...but still doesn't have quite the time/knowledge to learn how to install Arch (the arch way)
Why should they not get the oppurtunity to run one of the best distros around without having to learn everything , not having to read 30 pages of text just to install a distribution..

My idea is that they should not need to read that 30 pages of text, it shoudl be enough with reading 5 pages perhaps...(for the installation and the basics of pacman )

The feeling I get when I mentioned this *might be* distro is that everyone believes that it is going to suck because it is for newbies, and that newbies have no place in the world if they do not know how to install Arch or any other more advanced distro. They should just stick with Windows right? ...I believe that is wrong, I have nothing against Windows, and I certainly have nothing against Arch, I just thhink that we should give the Newbies a chance to try out the best distro around without having to learn everything there is about linux to become elit
When they feel comfortable with my distro, they could continue over to Arch...but maybe you guys at Arch feel that there are too much users?!


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
Kernel 2.6.14-archck1  (selfcompiled)
Enlightenment 17

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#11 2005-04-03 03:37:29

Theoden
Member
Registered: 2005-03-03
Posts: 240

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

This is the thing that pisses me off most about linux lately.  I've been using linux for about 10 years or so, and I have watched this happen over and over again:  A good linux distro shows up on the scene - not a newbie distro - and it catches on.  The next thing you know, some Joker comes along and wants to make it into a M$ Windows wannabe distro for all the poor n00bs.

Why can't some things be just left alone?  Why is there always someone wanting to 'fix' things that don't need fixed.  Archlinux is NOT a newbie distro.  Doesn't want to be from what I can tell - doesn't need to be.

If you want to build another newbie distro (God knows we already have way too many of those), why not have the integrity to build your own from the bottom up like Judd did?  Why piggyback on his and others hard work just to make a name for yourself?

What a damn waste!

--Theoden   :evil:


"If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs,
the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."

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#12 2005-04-03 03:52:33

beniro
Member
From: St. Petersburg, FL, USA
Registered: 2002-12-31
Posts: 312

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Arch Linux is NOT a newbie distro!

But I support and applaud the efforts  of anyone who wants to fork or otherwise use the code from Arch Linux to produce a derivative work.

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#13 2005-04-03 09:17:38

sudman1
Member
From: Huntingdon, UK
Registered: 2005-02-18
Posts: 143

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

puntmuts wrote:

What is the advantage for newbies to use Arch for N00bs compared to other distributions specialized for new Linux users ? What are other newbie specialized distributions lacking so it is necessary to announce another distribution for newbies ?

The advantage in my eyes is pacman. Pacman is a great concept for package management. Pacman is simple, powerful, and efficient. RPMS are a hassle for everyone, especially noobs. Noobs will get the wrong idea of Linux if they have to wait hours to install software with portage. I've never used apt, but from what I understand, the only thing it's got going for it over RPM is dependency tracking.

In the end, if a package maintainer from an existing noob distro hasn't built the packages already, it's a pain to install software with those distros.

Pacman/ABS are great on the command line and would be invaluable to the noobs out there who want to try a more hassle-free Linux distro than the RH/DEB derivatives.


v/r
Suds

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#14 2005-04-03 09:24:22

arooaroo
Member
From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Theoden wrote:

If you want to build another newbie distro (God knows we already have way too many of those), why not have the integrity to build your own from the bottom up like Judd did?  Why piggyback on his and others hard work just to make a name for yourself?

Judd also stood on the shoulders of others.

I think it's cool that someone wants to fork Arch. If Judd didn't want people to fork his work, then he wouldn't have released his system under an open source license. Of course, I'm sure forkers will soon realise that it's damn hard to do, but hey, if Newbie Arch takes off, then that should stop the same old "Gui installer" and "pacman frontend" newbie requests on these forums.

This is why Linux, and open source in general is so good. Sure, people may think that using Arch as a base for adding components not in accordance to the Arch Way is somehow treacherous, but hey, it doesn't matter, right? Regardless of what the forkers do, AL will still be going strong.

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#15 2005-04-03 11:40:08

dtw
Forum Fellow
From: London, UK
Registered: 2004-08-03
Posts: 4,428
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Arch Linux for newbies

This statement totally contradicts itself - CyberTron, please read what i said in the other thread reinstallers.

What does Arch have that other distros don't?  I said it before: pacman and abs.

Most newbies aren't even going to want to bother with abs and good luck teaching them.  So what does that leave you?  Pacman, a package management system.  There plenty of other distros with package management systems.

lastly, the whole concept of newbie handholding distros is total nonsense, it basically doesn't teach newbies how to use linux, it teache sthem how to use that distro - works for windows cos there is only one windows - you learn how to use windows, you can use windows.  learn how to use your proposed distro and what do you got?

.:EDIT:.

in fact, i do support a fork.  it will mean that all the request our devs get for stupid functionality you and your massive team of devs will get, and it will save their time and effort.  there will also be less people like you posting things like this on these forums, which get my back up and cause me to waste my time replying to them, becasue your distro will be able to incorportae every single thing a newbie needs, or thinks they need, to use linux.  wow.  i'm in awe.

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#16 2005-04-03 12:55:08

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Most newbies need their hand hold for a while. But what most newbie friendly distro's seem to do is also blindfolding them while guiding them along. A newbie friendly distro that does hold hands but at the same time shows everything around is worth something.

Also there is a thin line between KISS, ease of use and newbie friendliness. If doing things is simple and not unnecessarily complex, then it's most likely also newbie friendly. Is that bad? I don't think so. There's nothing worse than wasting hours of time to accomplish something that could be done within minutes, if everything didn't work against you.

Slapping GUI frontend between the user and reality may seem like newbie friendly, but overall it makes things only more complex and confines the user. The gui's that don't do that are rare.

The whole point of free software is sharing it and the freedom to do with it what you want, except making it less free. I don't see how using Arch as a basis for another, different distro can be seen as a bad thing. It just means that more people enjoy the hard work of many Arch devs. Though when that work would be used to make a direct competitor for Arch, then it would look more like abuse and leaching, but that isn't the case here.

So good luck CyberTron, I hope you make a good newbie friendly distro. Arch is GPL, to answer your original question. Just don't use the word "arch" in your distro's name and everything should be fine.

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#17 2005-04-03 23:59:26

darkcoder
Member
From: A bar near you
Registered: 2004-09-10
Posts: 310

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Arch for newbies, no way.  There are a LOT of distros for newbies.  And BTW, no matter how easy to use a distro is, sooner or latter you will end doing things the CLI way.

For example:
Suse, Fedora, Mandrake, Ubuntu -> easier to install, usually all hardware works from the begining, but you have to fight to make multimedia works by browsing community forums, docs, repos, etc and modifying their respective repo lists.

Gentoo and Arch -> all you need is on their main repos, do not need to search for anything extra, easier to develop and compile external sources.  But more difficult to install (specially Gentoo)

It depends on where do you want to spend your time on the system:  at install or tweek to get it as you want tongue

If you want something kiddie proof, pay $49 for Linspire.

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#18 2005-04-04 15:24:36

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

I hoped he would make the first CLI based newbie friendly distro...

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#19 2005-04-04 15:32:34

jerem
Member
From: France
Registered: 2005-01-15
Posts: 310

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Arch is targeted at experienced users. We cannot be the best distribution in every area.

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#20 2005-04-04 15:48:16

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Arch is fine just the way it is. It teaches the command line which in my opinion should be knowledgeable to almost every who uses Linux. This way less problems will occur as in Windows, as users will learn how to fix specific problems themselves. As for the questions they dont know, well..forums!  big_smile

If noobs don't feel like they cannot waste time learning via Arch, they could try Debian where debconf tries to help as much as possible. Or any other distro that is noob specific. I originally started with Mandrake where now I don't touch it! BUT I would still recommend it to beginners.

However if a noob is daring and wishes to jump into the deep end, when he comes out, he'll be a lot better off.

It's all about patience!


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#21 2005-04-12 23:18:22

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 460

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Aye, .........

[severe edit]

(guilty of bandwagoning on the last posts, not the original topic ... sorry)  :oops:

Thats the beauty of Linux: Choice ! One size doesn't have to fit all.

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#22 2005-04-12 23:25:35

Dusty
Schwag Merchant
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

I can't figure out why you all are attacking the guy for wanting to create a newbie friendly version of Arch. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with it, and it won't impact those of us that prefer Arch the way it is at all. It would be a separate project. The only way it could impact us is that it would draw some of the annoying newbies away from Arch. This wouldn't hurt anything, in my opinion.

The original poster is OFFERING to create this system, he is not telling the devs what to do. If he wants to do this, then a) we can't stop him and b) there is no reason to want to dissuade him.

As people say, newbizing Arch could, and probably would make a bloated distro that wouldn't be any better than the likes of Mandrake, but that's no reason not to try.

Dusty

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#23 2005-04-12 23:38:35

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Dusty wrote:

I can't figure out why you all are attacking the guy for wanting to create a newbie friendly version of Arch.

Some people just like to hear themselves talk, without consideration of what they are saying or why. Like "Listen to me! I must have something important to say because I am me!"

Most likely a byproduct of our pro-egocentric society. Most of us are told when we are young that we are unique, special, and destined for greatness... Some people become a bit disenfranchised when they get older and realize they are just another member of the "teaming masses", not destined for greatness of any kind. This could account for consistently non-constructive negative feedback..but I dunno. Just a guess.

*shrug*


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#24 2005-04-13 00:36:38

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Just to set the record straight: I wasn't "attacking" the guy. In my opinion (my very own opinion, noone elses...) there are way, way too many newbie-friendly Linux distros out there. Mandriva, Suse, Mepis, Ubuntu, etc...

I can understand people who wish to flame CyberTron, as Arch was made to not have additional GUI tools, apart from pacman. Now, give pacman extra stuff, even give it a GUI frontend and that to me seems ok. That sounds like a noob-friendlier Arch. Simple yet effective at both commandline AND X.

The original poster speaks about VidaLinux. This just shows the wrong mentality: VidaLinux is NOT for newbies, no different than Gentoo. Wow, it installs Gnome... You will still encounter problems that you would with Gentoo, USE flags, compiling errors, configurations...need I go on?

If we take the VidaLinux example, lets say that this guy adds a GUI installer. Unless he is willing to write a tool such as YaST or Drake, how does that make Arch noob-friendly...?

If CyberTron wants to make a new distro well good luck to him, I'm noone to get in his way! But, my argument is that there are many noob-friendly distros that do the job and unless he can see and say whats missing from the others, then why make a clone? Judd Vinnet made Arch and it is unique: the only thing I can compare it to is Slackware with a very VERY good swaret installation  lol It's Debian without debconf and more non-free software

Disclaimer: All of the above are KCy29581's personal views


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#25 2005-04-15 03:55:21

darkcoder
Member
From: A bar near you
Registered: 2004-09-10
Posts: 310

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

dibblethewrecker wrote:

lastly, the whole concept of newbie handholding distros is total nonsense, it basically doesn't teach newbies how to use linux, it teache sthem how to use that distro

That's right, compare "easy to use distros" and you'll find a lot of differences that will make your life a pain when switching from one to another.

dibblethewrecker wrote:

in fact, i do support a fork

IMHO it depends.  If the fork stays on line with Arch roads, but adds the GUI tools and even packages not under current/extra, I have not problem with that, because it could end bringing something like Kubuntu gives to Ubuntu, an extension.  But making something completely different like Frugalware, thanks but no thanks.

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