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#26 2005-04-15 05:48:00

dtw
Forum Fellow
From: London, UK
Registered: 2004-08-03
Posts: 4,428
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

personally - i felt my arguement - while a bit harsh and sarcatic at the end - had a very valid point. simply that the best thing arch offers: ABS and pacman, are respectively not newbie friendly anyway and just a package management system.

if this thread was entitled "I want to make a newbie friendly distro using pacman and the Arch repos" that would be a whole different matter - because that isn't Arch for newbies - Arch Linux is a philosophy bundled together with ABS and pacman, lose two of those and what do you have?  Just another distro - so what are you bring the newbie community in a newbie "friendly" Arch?  Pacman.  That's not Arch.

Am I making sense?  lol

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#27 2005-04-15 08:37:29

miqorz
Member
Registered: 2004-12-31
Posts: 475

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

dibblethewrecker wrote:

Am I making sense?  lol

Very much so.  :!:


http://wiki2.archlinux.org/

Read it. Love it. Live it. Or die.

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#28 2005-04-15 11:40:44

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 460

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

its Opensource world isnt it ? - surely thats exactly the point. The guy can basically do what he wants within the limits of any copyright/left statements.

What other ppl think about it is immaterial, altho i'd prefer to see people helping others to learn the ropes, not provide a ladder to bypass the rope itself.

Save the world : write something for the wiki on installs.

Wiki: ... Thats the page of contributed help / instructions, based upon a hawaiian .....


smile

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#29 2005-04-15 20:21:00

darkcoder
Member
From: A bar near you
Registered: 2004-09-10
Posts: 310

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

that's why some people said that open source can be problematic.

Arch has still some rought areas, but dunno that making an Newbie distro will fix them anyway.  I think most of the problems and difficulties can be avoided with proper designed packages.  Some of the packages need a revision since they do not include, or perform necesary tasks.

A good package example:  installing KDE is a piece of cake, just pacman -Syu kde for the whole stuff, or if you just one a specific area (kdenetwork, kdepim) will install what you want.

A bad package example: installing Gnome.  It's a pain.  pacman -S gnome do not install all gnome components.  Missing are:  gnome-terminal, gedit, file-roller.  While I agree epiphany should not be included, for those who prefer firefox instead, why not the three I named before.  Which Gnome user do not use file-roller or gedit, or the gnome terminal itself?

Bottom line:  current Arch gnome package brings an uncomplete desktop, which takes time to fix, and no GUI, newbie tools will be able to fix.

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#30 2005-04-15 23:50:39

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

I don't know that the arch devs should be blamed for that. There are actually 2 gnome group packages:
gnome
gnome-extra

likely you just need to install gnome extra too.
I have heard that upstream gnome is a PAIN in the butt to work with. Hence, patrick of slackware deciding not to do it on his own anymore (letting other contributors do it instead--like dropline). Maybe if people bitched a little higher up on the food chain on this one, things would happen...

anyway..

pacman -S gnome gnome-extra

"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#31 2005-04-16 14:25:41

darkcoder
Member
From: A bar near you
Registered: 2004-09-10
Posts: 310

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

thanks for the tip on gnome-extra.

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#32 2005-04-17 07:50:19

dtw
Forum Fellow
From: London, UK
Registered: 2004-08-03
Posts: 4,428
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

yeah - from what i see gnome is a bit of a mess - i find it hard to believe people bother with it - it just looks like the biggest PITA - i think the Arch maintainers need a medal for trying!

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#33 2005-04-17 23:54:31

darkcoder
Member
From: A bar near you
Registered: 2004-09-10
Posts: 310

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

yes, at least they haven' t give up like the slack guy.

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#34 2005-04-18 11:23:09

pwe
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2005-02-15
Posts: 41

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

i used to use gnome but now im using Fluxbox. I liked Gnom very much, and in those 2 packages groups are many of cool programs. and nice to hear that maintainers haven't give up smile

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#35 2005-04-19 04:37:23

TheRaginAsian
Member
From: Brooklyn MI
Registered: 2004-04-05
Posts: 70
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Ok I felt like I needed to post because some of the things said back to this guy are just wrong. And I do have an opinion on the matter, but please dont take so much thought into it that it will anger anyone.

Say he goes even farther than just forking, he sets up entirely new repos and packages that are maintained just for his flavor of Arch. Then, he in no way even TOUCHES the current arch, he simply uses the excellent code and design as a base. What possible argument could you think of against such a thing? And I hate how his idea is automatically shut down. Are we all so full of ourselfs that we cant say that he could possibly be onto something here? Say he makes a noob-friendly distro, but does the proper planning, heavy testing, and work it would require for such a task. When it hits Number 1 on distrowatch and gets the best reviews of any distro yet is when ill want you people to refer back to this fateful post when you all claimed it to be a foolish idea. Think before you speak for the love of god.

Long live Arch, Long live Archie, and any... ANY... other excellent projects that may result from this great distro. Open-Source, Open-Minds.


John Gallias
Technician/Friend/Bassist
http://www.concretearmy.com
john@concretearmy.com
john.gallias@gmail.com
Arch Linux v0.7 (Wombat), XFce 4.2, XOrg, Firefox

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#36 2005-04-19 04:59:16

Dusty
Schwag Merchant
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
Website

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#37 2005-04-19 05:07:16

TheRaginAsian
Member
From: Brooklyn MI
Registered: 2004-04-05
Posts: 70
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Thanks! I'm glad you posted eariler though, I believe it really helped calm things down.


John Gallias
Technician/Friend/Bassist
http://www.concretearmy.com
john@concretearmy.com
john.gallias@gmail.com
Arch Linux v0.7 (Wombat), XFce 4.2, XOrg, Firefox

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#38 2005-04-19 07:58:44

dtw
Forum Fellow
From: London, UK
Registered: 2004-08-03
Posts: 4,428
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Cool!  I'll believe it when i see it!  Been there done that, the t-shirts never made production.  Like I said tho, good luck.

Until proved otherwise I'll continue to consider this thread an agenda furthering rhetoric wagon.

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#39 2005-04-19 08:29:16

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

dibblethewrecker wrote:

Until proved otherwise I'll continue to consider this thread an agenda furthering rhetoric wagon.

wagon.jpg


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#40 2005-04-19 12:27:02

miqorz
Member
Registered: 2004-12-31
Posts: 475

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

dibblethewrecker wrote:

Cool!  I'll believe it when i see it!  Been there done that, the t-shirts never made production.  Like I said tho, good luck.

Until proved otherwise I'll continue to consider this thread an agenda furthering rhetoric wagon.

It's actually nice to know someone else on this forum has their head on their shoulders.

I'm actually sick of the open source community who expects every pathetic idea to be upheld as the greatest acomplishment of the 21th century.

There IS such a thing as personal opinion, Get over it.


http://wiki2.archlinux.org/

Read it. Love it. Live it. Or die.

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#41 2005-04-19 13:43:53

murkus
Member
From: Europe/Helsinki
Registered: 2004-03-19
Posts: 254

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

darkcoder wrote:

But more difficult to install (specially Gentoo)

Actually if one can read, installing gentoo is very easy. big_smile
They have excellent docs. Trust me, even I could do it back then.. wink


.murkus

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#42 2005-04-20 00:56:48

magnum_opus
Member
Registered: 2005-01-26
Posts: 132

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

how do you make arch more noob friendly but still stay mostly arch?

1. figure out a way to display the install guide and the actually installer at the same time, lets people make sure what they're doing is right without switching and the inevitable "wait what did that just say", if this requires a rudimentary gui just so you can have a resolution that will allow this so be it as long as the gui doesn't really do anything but look nicer.

2. write a script that automatically fills in some things, if i do ftp install and put in my IP number and assorted info, make the script write it into the appropriate .conf's ditto with any module's i load to get it to recognize my ethernet card. and an something to write a grub script that will detect other OS's. BUT don't tell anyone about it just toss a disclaimer on the top of the .conf page that says "the curent information may be appropriate for your system however we strongly advise checking through them", the 'may' is important it implies a 50-50 chance at best that it will work as is that way people will be more likely to check it and read the documentation to see if it's right.

3. expand the documentation, it's good but it could use more examples for a noob, particularly around the bootloader part.

4. include a menu option specifically for installing x.org and after installing make it go straight to nano with a custom EXTENSIVELY annotated .conf also including the appropriate wiki article. make special not that installing x.org at install time is optional.

and the at the end of the install include a statement along the lines of "after reboot type nano Firsttime.txt" where firsttime is essentially a series of recommendations like "try pacman -kde" or something as well as a reminder to make accounts and a root password ALSA things of that ilk

also you might want to include links or lynx on the install cd so it's possible to look up help on the arch forums (that was a life saver when trying to install gentoo).

really though once you get the initial system set up it's not much harder than slackware

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#43 2005-04-20 06:45:33

dtw
Forum Fellow
From: London, UK
Registered: 2004-08-03
Posts: 4,428
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

1. some people call that a printer, but i see your point and agree!  you could have it in another vc

to nano with a custom EXTENSIVELY annotated .conf

nano?  come from gentoo do we? big_smile

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#44 2005-04-20 07:46:38

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 460

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

:twisted: wink

Cactus, i just love your wagon *but*
The pic only shows 3 actual wheels. Corporate/Sysadmin/PseudoPro's/Beardie types will never buy into it.
Is there a guaranteed stable bulletproof Newbfriendly version in the pipeline ? If so i might deign to let it support my fat ar*e for a while.

Also is it the latest model? as i dont want to get onboard if your gonna release a slightly bigger one tomorrow.

IMHO you need far bigger wheels, and its begging for a step at the front, cant have folks complaining its too hard to get into. Carpeted step would be nice too, to hell with the weight, ppl want comfort.

Actually being as we are here, not that i want to be critical, the cover looks a rather flimsy affair, how about upgrading it to a 10 point roll cage.

Thinking on, it looks like a good base for a new model i'm thinking of making.
Have You time to give me a list of component parts, and manufacture instructions?

Further, I cant be ar*ed to take driving lessons or read the Friendly manual so do you have any plans to be sat up there with me, or will you give me your mobile number so i can pester you at my whim?

Id just like to finish by saying what a great wagon it is, im so glad i came across it, but i feel i'll go back to my old chariot for now, as it works real good, but i'll be sure to watch out for when you get an injun fitted.
Thanks.

Eric J  Spiggotfeatures. CEO/Sysadmin/Bignob/Coder/JaPH/Mankwangler

:twisted: wink

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#45 2005-04-20 14:12:03

TheRaginAsian
Member
From: Brooklyn MI
Registered: 2004-04-05
Posts: 70
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

miqorz wrote:
dibblethewrecker wrote:

Cool!  I'll believe it when i see it!  Been there done that, the t-shirts never made production.  Like I said tho, good luck.

Until proved otherwise I'll continue to consider this thread an agenda furthering rhetoric wagon.

It's actually nice to know someone else on this forum has their head on their shoulders.

I'm actually sick of the open source community who expects every pathetic idea to be upheld as the greatest acomplishment of the 21th century.

There IS such a thing as personal opinion, Get over it.

The idea was never touted as "The greatest acomplishment of the 21st century". Actually, thanks to some "personal opinions", the idea was never appriciated at all, thats really the only argument I make. It's not a revolutionary idea, its just an idea. Heres not trying to make a statement, hes not trying to say "WE NEED TO DO THIS NOW OR BE DAMNED", he simply shared an idea with a community that he felt would like to listen.


John Gallias
Technician/Friend/Bassist
http://www.concretearmy.com
john@concretearmy.com
john.gallias@gmail.com
Arch Linux v0.7 (Wombat), XFce 4.2, XOrg, Firefox

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#46 2005-04-20 16:00:42

CyberTron
Member
From: Gotland ,Sweden
Registered: 2005-03-17
Posts: 645
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Hi all!

I feel that it is time for me to speak up and tell you all how this is going, and what has happened...

First of all, I would like to say thanks to everyone who supports me and this project...

second I would like to point out that I am in no way trying to take away the pride of this community nor the pride of the developers for Arch.

third: I think that the attitude in these forums has to change!! it is way to condescending atleast compared to Gentoo / Slack forums.!

Many of you are very very condescending to the new Arch:(ers)...and when they are asking for help they get only stupid and bad responses...why?


As for the project, right now I am looking into the installer and trying to figure out how to make things easier without making it too easy...i am also looking alot at the Frugalware project...which are looking promising..

/CyberTron


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
Kernel 2.6.14-archck1  (selfcompiled)
Enlightenment 17

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#47 2005-04-20 17:19:50

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

CyberTron wrote:

Many of you are very very condescending to the new Arch:(ers)...and when they are asking for help they get only stupid and bad responses...why?

Just a theory of me, so no guarantee that it is true:

Arch is targeted at the more advanced users (or the people willing to learn, but ignore that for now), so if relative new/almost old users see that new people ask newbie kind of questions, then they feel attacked in their ego because if less advanced users can use Arch it means that they aren't as cool as they thought, and thus try to shoot down the poor newb...

Of course Arch is really for everyone who wants to use it, the whiners don't have to answer the posts they don't like and can easily ignore them if they're posted in the newbie section. Of course it is sad that people ask the same questions which were answered somewhere else and could be found with a little searching, but that's another problem, and a less big one as the whiners.

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#48 2005-04-21 20:03:51

magnum_opus
Member
Registered: 2005-01-26
Posts: 132

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

dibblethewrecker wrote:

1. some people call that a printer, but i see your point and agree!  you could have it in another vc

well thing is personally i don't find printing 30 pages out particularly convenient or inviting and as for putting in in another vc you can already do that but it requires the back and forth switching that i said should be ignored

to nano with a custom EXTENSIVELY annotated .conf

nano?  come from gentoo do we? big_smile

reason i say nano is that newb friendly isn't really about gui's and install wizards. newb friendly is about things being obvious, it's about not leaving questions in the mind of the user, and frankly nano is much more obvious than vi.

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#49 2005-04-21 22:31:02

MasonM
Member
From: Plant City, FL
Registered: 2005-04-20
Posts: 19

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Many of you are very very condescending to the new Arch:(ers)...and when they are asking for help they get only stupid and bad responses...why?

I don't know about that. I'll admit I'm new to Arch but not to Linux. I was having a dhcp problem and posted it. The responses I got were reasonable and helpful in getting me to work through the problem. While nobody held my hand, they were helpful and in no way rude or condescending about it at all.

But then again, I don't think I asked a stupid question or a smart question in a stupid way. Maybe that's the difference?

As for a "newbie friendly" distro based on Arch, I say go for it. There are already a lot of noob distros out there anyway, why not one more? maybe it'll actually be a good one. Never know.

Either way it won't change what Arch is in any way. As I have already come to like Arch very much I'd hate to see it's basic essence changed by adding a bunch of auto-config scripts and GUI tools that dumb-down things. Leave that for the noob distros.

Noob distros have their place. I keep a copy of the LiveCD SimplyMepis laying around for emergencies or to show to folks who may want to migrate from windoze to Linux. It's pretty handy for a quick test of hardware compatability when thinking about buying a new machine.

Good luck with your "newbie friendly" distro. Just don't dumb it down too much. smile


Mason

Linux: because a PC is a terrible thing to waste.

Registered Linux User # 382617

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#50 2005-04-21 22:43:36

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

MasonM wrote:

Noob distros have their place. I keep a copy of the LiveCD SimplyMepis laying around for emergencies or to show to folks who may want to migrate from windoze to Linux. It's pretty handy for a quick test of hardware compatability when thinking about buying a new machine.

Try Archie : http://user-contributions.org/archie.html
it kicks the crap out of other live CDs... I think it actually boots faster than my harddrive... 8)

magnum_opus wrote:

reason i say nano is that newb friendly isn't really about gui's and install wizards. newb friendly is about things being obvious, it's about not leaving questions in the mind of the user, and frankly nano is much more obvious than vi.

I agree 100%... I used nano to make PKGBUILDs, because there's not much to it... vim is for heavier tasks (it's funny calling vim heavy-weight)

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