Thoughts on Debian Linux?

Carlwill · 2011-02-18 22:52:54

I think if I would have been a Linux user pre-2004, and started with a distribution like Slackware or Gentoo, then perhaps I wouldn't be as scared of Gentoo as I am now. I've honestly just never really got the hang of it. I really just love Arch Linux and while the AUR is at times annoying, I do really find this to be my favorite distribution of all time. Just not for production machines. That's why I use Debian.

JohannesSM64 · 2011-02-20 14:42:25

madalu wrote:

I appreciate the Debian goal of creating secure, stable release. It
takes time to test and "season" packages for a production environment
-- and that requires freezing the stuff that works, even if it means
falling behind the bleeding-edge. It's nice that the release cycle is
a bit faster than it used to be.

But the megafreeze distros take a lot of resources away from continuous testing and hence fixing of the upstream software.

Fruity · 2011-02-22 03:12:36

Carlwill wrote:

..as their Wiki page and documentation is nowhere close to Arch Linux.

Indeed! Praise for those who make it what it is. A great rescource.

An interesting spin on debian, which I havent seen mentioned is kfreeBSD Which is debian, but with the freeBSD kernel. Been thinking to give it a whirl on a VM. Sadly, as yet, it doesn't have ZFS support, which is a nice plus point on freeBSD.

Leonid.I · 2011-02-22 19:52:11

Fruity wrote:

An interesting spin on debian, which I havent seen mentioned is kfreeBSD Which is debian, but with the freeBSD kernel. Been thinking to give it a whirl on a VM. Sadly, as yet, it doesn't have ZFS support, which is a nice plus point on freeBSD.

This is one of those things, which I could never understand. Usually people like *BSD for system design, e.g. that kernel+basic userlad are developed together. What are advantages of having only freebsd kernel, over linux? Meh...

Carlwill · 2011-02-23 21:21:57

So after using Debian Linux for some weeks now. Here is my review:

1. Screen from console is not cleared as root or regular user once you log out.

I've never used a distribution of Linux where developers said; "Lets keep everything that user just did on the console visible after we walks away. This seems extremely stupid to me. For both a regular user and especially root.

2. Users home directories get created with 755 permissions.

So when you create any user in Debian, the default permissions on their home directory is 755 which means anyone with a system account can cd into your files and copy / read them. This makes sense...

3. Debian installer defaults to creating user group names which is just a mess.

Besides Ubuntu or any other mind numbing distribution, why would any administrator want to manage individual groups for every user. This is extremely pointless and annoying. The last thing I want/need to do on my fresh system is to start deleting pointless groups. At least give us the option on which groups we want the new user to belong to during the install. I know can specify -g when running the 'useradd' command post install but there's no option when installing Debian .

Obviously these are not critical issues but in my opinion extremely annoying and pointless. Does anyone know why Debian developers choose these behaviors for a default Debian system? I just don't understand the logic.

Inxsible · 2011-02-23 21:46:32

1) I think that's the default behavior. You can easily add a log out or a clear screen in your bash_profile and get around it.

if [[-z "$DISPLAY"]] && [[$(tty) = /dev/tty1]]; then
    xinit -- :0 2>/dev/null
    logout
fi

Leonid.I · 2011-02-23 21:53:08

Carlwill wrote:

So after using Debian Linux for some weeks now. Here is my review:
3. Debian installer defaults to creating user group names which is just a mess.
Besides Ubuntu or any other mind numbing distribution, why would any administrator want to manage individual groups for every user. This is extremely pointless and annoying. The last thing I want/need to do on my fresh system is to start deleting pointless groups. At least give us the option on which groups we want the new user to belong to during the install. I know can specify -g when running the 'useradd' command post install but there's no option when installing Debian .

Also, Fedora/RH belong to this category

Carlwill wrote:

Obviously these are not critical issues but in my opinion extremely annoying and pointless. Does anyone know why Debian developers choose these behaviors for a default Debian system? I just don't understand the logic.

One thing, which took me away from openSuSE is the 3rd party repos. For instance, I install latex from [publish], then update it, which pulls tar from the same repo. Now, I have a system with tar coming from a different vendor, instead of official openSuSE. Another example is xine-codecs, which pulled libphonon newer, than the one required for official KDE. Soon (3 days) my system became a mess... Does anything like this happen in Debian?

vanvalium · 2011-02-24 02:33:36

lifeafter2am wrote:

vanvalium wrote:
I kinda liked it when I used it for a short time a few years ago. But I didn't reallly have a clue about linux back then.
As I'm currently bored with Arch (love it, but I need some new things to try out) I'll probably test debian sid soon. Heard good things about it and normal debian doesn't interest me at all (I'm currently building a server with it though)
If your bored keeping Arch in working order, move over to Gentoo. As much as I love Gentoo, I personally don't have the time to keep it all 100% anymore.

I have been thinking about it, but I doubt I have that much free time.
When I tried it a few years ago I spent 2 days and couldn't get it to work.
Now I probably could, so gentoo and debian sid are on top of my soon-to-try-out list.

This is one of those things, which I could never understand. Usually people like *BSD for system design, e.g. that kernel+basic userlad are developed together. What are advantages of having only freebsd kernel, over linux? Meh...

Don't really see the advantages on that either but I read alot of people complaining about the latest linux kernels. So that might be some kind of reason...

cerbie · 2011-02-24 08:20:07

Leonid.I wrote:

One thing, which took me away from openSuSE is the 3rd party repos. For instance, I install latex from [publish], then update it, which pulls tar from the same repo. Now, I have a system with tar coming from a different vendor, instead of official openSuSE. Another example is xine-codecs, which pulled libphonon newer, than the one required for official KDE. Soon (3 days) my system became a mess... Does anything like this happen in Debian?

Yes. I'm just about to try Arch on a box that's had MEPIS 8.5 on it for awhile (Lenny base, MEPIS repos, 3rd-party repos for more packages), that has become just that sort of mess, with packages that won't upgrade, won't install, and won't remove, with applications that won't run anymore, to top it off. With a plain Debian desktop, it wouldn't have lasted even as long as it has, because of Debian's definition of free, that offers incentive to finding community created repos. Ironically, it was adding Debian's own backports, to try to get newer available versions of some dependencies, that finally broke it to the point of near unusability.

I like Debian as a server, over Red Hat/CentOS. Both have quirks, but both also have massive amounts of user documentation. Such documentation is often worth far more than elegance in the system itself.

But Debian, and distros based directly on it (Ubuntu is its own can of worms), just aren't too amenable to desktop use. At least not when one wishes to choose the software installed, yet also keep the OS install updated and functioning after all of those 3rd-party packages get mixed up in it.

Also, trying to get all necessary sources and headers to compile software acquired as a source tarball can be a nightmare on Debian and Debian-based distros, due to having so many separate packages, with no easy way to find out which ones might have what the ./configure's errors refer to. Debian divides it up so much that getting the package claimed missing, and all build dependencies, typically still doesn't do the job. Meanwhile, distros that don't have so many packages for single projects, tend to handle this situation just fine.

Misfit138 · 2011-02-24 16:37:23

What are advantages of having only freebsd kernel, over linux? Meh...

Don't really see the advantages on that either but I read alot of people complaining about the latest linux kernels. So that might be some kind of reason...

One advantage, at least statistically, is that a kernel and userland base developed together in one single source repository would be more stable than the hodge-podge development model of GNU/Linux distros, which combine thousands of packages from different sources all over the place.

This is certainly not to say that using *BSD is the answer to all your problems if you are fed up with Linux and GNU...

penguin · 2011-02-24 17:37:19

I agree with most of what's been said, I only use Arch and Debian.

Carlwill wrote:

So after using Debian Linux for some weeks now. Here is my review:
1. Screen from console is not cleared as root or regular user once you log out.
I've never used a distribution of Linux where developers said; "Lets keep everything that user just did on the console visible after we walks away. This seems extremely stupid to me. For both a regular user and especially root.

Odd, I've never experienced this behavior. Neither in Lenny 5.0 nor in Squeeze 6.0.

Carlwill wrote:

2. Users home directories get created with 755 permissions.
This makes sense...

I agree, it makes sense as long as you don't have anything to hide. As long as they don't have write permission, I prefer it this way.

Also, the Debian wiki is kind of sparse, I guess a lot more work goes in to the Ubuntu wiki these days, as the place to look for "beginners questions". I guess it is common knowledge that the Arch wiki is among the best there is for really learning Linux.

Last edited by penguin (2011-02-24 17:39:56)

thayer · 2011-02-24 20:23:38

I have always liked the idea of Debian; the maturity, the ideology of freedom, the stable/unstable distributions and the sheer volume of software. At one point I thought it might make a decent alternative to Arch Linux, a sort of halfway point between stability and cutting edge, minimalism and mainstream.

Then I saw the kitchen sink mentality to package dependencies:

# apt-get install nautilus
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:

  app-install-data apt-xapian-index aspell aspell-en brasero
  brasero-common cdrdao consolekit desktop-base desktop-file-utils
  dictionaries-common docbook-xml dosfstools dvd+rw-tools esound-common
  fuse-utils genisoimage gnome-icon-theme gnome-mime-data
  gstreamer0.10-plugins-base gstreamer0.10-plugins-good
  gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly gstreamer0.10-x gvfs gvfs-backends hdparm
  hunspell-en-us hwdata liba52-0.7.4 libaa1 libao-common libao4
  libarchive1 libart-2.0-2 libaspell15 libatasmart4 libaudiofile0
  libavahi-glib1 libavc1394-0 libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common
  libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libbrasero-media0 libburn4 libcaca0
  libcairo-perl libcdio-cdda0 libcdio-paranoia0 libcdio10 libcdparanoia0
  libck-connector0 libdv4 libdvdnav4 libdvdread4 libeggdbus-1-0
  libenchant1c2a libesd0 libexempi3 libexif12 libfam0 libflac8 libfuse2
  libgail18 libgdu0 libglib-perl libgmime-2.4-2 libgnome-desktop-2-17
  libgnome2-0 libgnome2-canvas-perl libgnome2-common libgnome2-perl
  libgnome2-vfs-perl libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common
  libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0 libgnomevfs2-common
  libgnomevfs2-extra libgphoto2-2 libgphoto2-port0 libgtk2-perl
  libgudev-1.0-0 libhal-storage1 libhal1 libhunspell-1.2-0 libid3tag0
  libiec61883-0 libimobiledevice1 libisofs6 libmad0 libmpeg2-4
  libnautilus-extension1 libntfs-3g75 libntfs10 liboil0.3
  libopencore-amrnb0 libopencore-amrwb0 liborc-0.4-0 libpam-ck-connector
  libpango-perl libparted0debian1 libplist1 libpolkit-agent-1-0
  libpolkit-backend-1-0 libpolkit-gobject-1-0 libproxy0 librarian0
  libraw1394-11 librsvg2-common libsgutils2-2 libshout3 libsidplay1
  libsmbclient libsoup-gnome2.4-1 libsoup2.4-1 libspeex1 libtag1-vanilla
  libtag1c2a libtalloc2 libtheora0 libtotem-plparser17
  libtracker-client-0.8-0 libtwolame0 libunique-1.0-0 libupower-glib1
  libusb-1.0-0 libusbmuxd1 libv4l-0 libvisual-0.4-0
  libvisual-0.4-plugins libvorbisenc2 libvte-common libvte9 libwavpack1
  libwbclient0 libwebkit-1.0-2 libwebkit-1.0-common linux-sound-base
  mtools nautilus-data ntfs-3g ntfsprogs policykit-1 policykit-1-gnome
  python-chardet python-debian python-gnupginterface
  python-software-properties python-xapian rarian-compat sgml-data
  software-properties-gtk synaptic udisks unattended-upgrades usbmuxd

Suggested packages:

  python-xdg aspell-doc spellutils vcdimager libdvdcss2 gnome
  kde-standard xfce4 wmaker ispell emacsen-common jed-extra docbook
  docbook-dsssl docbook-xsl docbook-defguide cdrskin esound-clients
  wodim cdrkit-doc obex-data-server hunspell openoffice.org-hunspell
  openoffice.org-core libaudio2 libpulse0 libbonobo2-bin
  gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad libdv-bin libenchant-voikko esound fam
  libgnomevfs2-bin gphoto2 gtkam libgtk2-perl-doc parted nparted
  libparted0-dev libparted0-i18n libraw1394-doc sg3-utils sidplay-base
  xsidplay speex alsa-base floppyd eog evince pdf-viewer totem
  mp3-decoder xdg-user-dirs tracker xapian-doc perlsgml doc-html-w3
  opensp libxml2-utils dwww menu deborphan xfsprogs reiserfsprogs mdadm
  cryptsetup

The following NEW packages will be installed:

  app-install-data apt-xapian-index aspell aspell-en brasero
  brasero-common cdrdao consolekit desktop-base desktop-file-utils
  dictionaries-common docbook-xml dosfstools dvd+rw-tools esound-common
  fuse-utils genisoimage gnome-icon-theme gnome-mime-data
  gstreamer0.10-plugins-base gstreamer0.10-plugins-good
  gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly gstreamer0.10-x gvfs gvfs-backends hdparm
  hunspell-en-us hwdata liba52-0.7.4 libaa1 libao-common libao4
  libarchive1 libart-2.0-2 libaspell15 libatasmart4 libaudiofile0
  libavahi-glib1 libavc1394-0 libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common
  libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libbrasero-media0 libburn4 libcaca0
  libcairo-perl libcdio-cdda0 libcdio-paranoia0 libcdio10 libcdparanoia0
  libck-connector0 libdv4 libdvdnav4 libdvdread4 libeggdbus-1-0
  libenchant1c2a libesd0 libexempi3 libexif12 libfam0 libflac8 libfuse2
  libgail18 libgdu0 libglib-perl libgmime-2.4-2 libgnome-desktop-2-17
  libgnome2-0 libgnome2-canvas-perl libgnome2-common libgnome2-perl
  libgnome2-vfs-perl libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common
  libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0 libgnomevfs2-common
  libgnomevfs2-extra libgphoto2-2 libgphoto2-port0 libgtk2-perl
  libgudev-1.0-0 libhal-storage1 libhal1 libhunspell-1.2-0 libid3tag0
  libiec61883-0 libimobiledevice1 libisofs6 libmad0 libmpeg2-4
  libnautilus-extension1 libntfs-3g75 libntfs10 liboil0.3
  libopencore-amrnb0 libopencore-amrwb0 liborc-0.4-0 libpam-ck-connector
  libpango-perl libparted0debian1 libplist1 libpolkit-agent-1-0
  libpolkit-backend-1-0 libpolkit-gobject-1-0 libproxy0 librarian0
  libraw1394-11 librsvg2-common libsgutils2-2 libshout3 libsidplay1
  libsmbclient libsoup-gnome2.4-1 libsoup2.4-1 libspeex1 libtag1-vanilla
  libtag1c2a libtalloc2 libtheora0 libtotem-plparser17
  libtracker-client-0.8-0 libtwolame0 libunique-1.0-0 libupower-glib1
  libusb-1.0-0 libusbmuxd1 libv4l-0 libvisual-0.4-0
  libvisual-0.4-plugins libvorbisenc2 libvte-common libvte9 libwavpack1
  libwbclient0 libwebkit-1.0-2 libwebkit-1.0-common linux-sound-base
  mtools nautilus nautilus-data ntfs-3g ntfsprogs policykit-1
  policykit-1-gnome python-chardet python-debian python-gnupginterface
  python-software-properties python-xapian rarian-compat sgml-data
  software-properties-gtk synaptic udisks unattended-upgrades usbmuxd

0 upgraded, 159 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 81.1 MB of archives.
After this operation, 231 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

brasero? aspell? synaptic? When I all I wanted is nautilus? No thanks, it'd never work out between us!

Awebb · 2011-02-24 20:53:09

I find the lack of consistency in the package management tools disturbing. We have apt-get, apt-cache, aptitude and dpkg and they all have a slightly to totally different syntax. Yesterday, I tried to explain to a Linux newbie (2nd hour using Ubuntu) when to use dpkg and when to use apt-get/apt-cache. It made sense after a while, but watching me "pacman -Q/S/R" made him question the logic behind Debian. I tried to explain the reasons using the "security throuh obscurity", but I think he didn't eat it.

penguin · 2011-02-25 11:34:30

@thayer
using:

apt-get --no-install-recommends install nautilus

will leave brasero and synaptic out.
Not that I don't agree with you. There were a lot of angry voices on the Debian forum when gnome-core turned into gnome-bloat as some people named it, when gnome-core started to include a bunch of stuff that weren't "core" at all.

olive · 2011-02-25 14:46:27

I tested Debian in the past but there are many things I do not like with it, in particular:

1) Package are heavily modified in comparison with upstream: a lot of patches and packages split into numerous small packages. I like the idea that a package of the distribution correspond to an upstream source package.

2) Too much abstractions and "Debian way" to do things.

3) There are too much packages, I mean too much in the base distribution. All packages belong in fact in the base distribution, a problem in one of them can be "release critical". But this prevent up to date release. I think the idea to have small set of core packages with additional community packages is much better.

4) Too much energy spent on "license problem"

Ubuntu have addressed some of these concern (particularly point 3 and 4). I used to use Slackware but I like to have a good repository with a package manager that manage the dependencies.

Leonid.I · 2011-02-25 17:31:13

Misfit138 wrote:

What are advantages of having only freebsd kernel, over linux? Meh...
Don't really see the advantages on that either but I read alot of people complaining about the latest linux kernels. So that might be some kind of reason...
One advantage, at least statistically, is that a kernel and userland base developed together in one single source repository would be more stable than the hodge-podge development model of GNU/Linux distros, which combine thousands of packages from different sources all over the place.
This is certainly not to say that using *BSD is the answer to all your problems if you are fed up with Linux and GNU...

I agree, but this "advantage" is effectively void in projects like Debian/kFreeBSD or Gentoo/BSD -- bsd kernel + gnu userland + distro-specific changes...

nixpunk · 2011-02-27 20:53:11

Always been a Debian fan.

Captain Dunce · 2011-03-01 10:56:55

I recently tried Squeeze because I have read so many good things about Debian, and I really like their apparent philosophy regarding open source. But I had so many weird porblems that I wonder if there were errors during the install or ? At one point I uninstalled my DE and X windows using aptitude but even though there was no trace of X, according to aptitude, I could still execute startx and for some reason it would then load GNOME which I never installed in the first place. Everything about Squeeze seemed to work inconsistently and this is without any major configuration on my part so I'm reasonably confident it wasn't operator error. I'll probably try it again on an extra drive or something, but my initial experience didn't instill much confidence.

458italia · 2011-03-01 14:29:21

I like the concept behind Debian, but the thing that I never really liked is how the packing system is overly complicated in and of itself. For example there are all of those packages which are -dev packages which are inherently separate from the standard packages, etc. If I remember correctly, I was trying to build a custom cvs version of mplayer back in the good old days when I was trying out slackware vs debian and ran into those troubles.

That said, I'm not trying to bash Debian or anything because it is a good distro for certain things like servers and installs which need to be relatively stable and reliable for long periods of time; so if I were to build some kind of general workstation type of machine, I'd definitely have a debian install that would last me for some years on it.

Gullible Jones · 2011-03-04 04:45:13

To avoid kitchen-sink package issues (and resultant problems with autoremove) you can put this in /etc/apt/apt.conf:

APT::Install-Recommends "0";
APT::Keep-Recommends "0";
APT::Install-Suggests "0";
APT::Keep-Suggests "0";

This will prevent recommended and suggested packages from being installed during normal use of apt-get or aptitude, and should allow recommended and suggested packages to be removed with autoremove. Be warned though that if you do this, some stuff may not work by default; e.g. xorg won't pull in xorg-fonts-base so stuff that needs those fonts may not work until you install the package manually.

scorpyn · 2011-03-07 00:29:52

The reason I left Debian is that they release updates way too rarely. I was trying to run software in an ancient JRE and with an ancient version of wine, and after a while it got tedious keeping the system up to date manually.

penguin · 2011-03-07 14:33:36

scorpyn wrote:

The reason I left Debian is that they release updates way too rarely. I was trying to run software in an ancient JRE and with an ancient version of wine, and after a while it got tedious keeping the system up to date manually.

Were you running Stable?
Testing gets upgraded all the time, as it is a rolling release. Should not be more than a few weeks, or two, between an Arch upgrade and Debian Testing.

scorpyn · 2011-03-07 17:36:28

penguin wrote:

scorpyn wrote:
The reason I left Debian is that they release updates way too rarely. I was trying to run software in an ancient JRE and with an ancient version of wine, and after a while it got tedious keeping the system up to date manually.
Were you running Stable?
Testing gets upgraded all the time, as it is a rolling release. Should not be more than a few weeks, or two, between an Arch upgrade and Debian Testing.

Yes, I was running stable. So far I haven't used a testing repo for any distribution (although I've sometimes used testing versions of specific programs).

Otoh, if I tried it again today, I wouldn't be surprised if stable was updated enough for me (except wine).

penguin · 2011-03-08 08:15:14

@scorpyn
Well, Debian Stable 6.0 was released just one month ago, and it will stay that way for two years. What you really should be using is Debian Testing, which is far more stable than a normal Ubuntu or Arch installation, in my (and many others) opinion. Not running Debian Testing because of fear of instability is most of the time uncalled for, and if stability is important one should think twice before going to Arch Linux at all.

Don't get me wrong, I love both Debian stable, testing, and Arch.

For a Arch-fresh equivalent Debian, you should use Debian Testing or Debian Unstable (Sid).

Last edited by penguin (2011-03-08 08:15:48)

scorpyn · 2011-03-08 10:33:51

Maybe I'll try it again the next time I reinstall my server.

Or perhaps I should try OpenBSD.

We'll see :-)

Arch Linux

#26 2011-02-18 22:52:54

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#27 2011-02-20 14:42:25

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#28 2011-02-22 03:12:36

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#29 2011-02-22 19:52:11

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#30 2011-02-23 21:21:57

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#31 2011-02-23 21:46:32

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#32 2011-02-23 21:53:08

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#33 2011-02-24 02:33:36

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#34 2011-02-24 08:20:07

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#35 2011-02-24 16:37:23

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#36 2011-02-24 17:37:19

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#37 2011-02-24 20:23:38

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#38 2011-02-24 20:53:09

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#39 2011-02-25 11:34:30

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#40 2011-02-25 14:46:27

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#41 2011-02-25 17:31:13

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#42 2011-02-27 20:53:11

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#43 2011-03-01 10:56:55

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#44 2011-03-01 14:29:21

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#45 2011-03-04 04:45:13

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#46 2011-03-07 00:29:52

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

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Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

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Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#49 2011-03-08 08:15:14

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

#50 2011-03-08 10:33:51

Re: Thoughts on Debian Linux?

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