"Something" more to help new users?

rasat · 2005-04-04 04:56:20

Is there anything you would like Arch to do for less linux competent users? To have "something" more to help them setup their system, without Arch compromising it's stand?.... will not be added in base install of Arch (except if does improve and approved by devs) nor tools making users miss the learning (computer illiterate).

PS.
For tools, keep this in mind:

Don't let configure tools / GUIs control the system but be controlled by the user. There is nothing wrong of having GUIs as long as it follows this principle.

miqorz · 2005-04-04 05:07:01

Maybe dialog boxes with FAQ stuff during each step of the install which explains everything with commonly used config samples.

Calling it "New User Mode" ?

eerok · 2005-04-04 05:57:44

Maybe include w3m on the distro cd and give a menu option to connect to archlinux org to access the online manual, pkg db, wiki, etc.

miqorz · 2005-04-04 06:02:23

eerok wrote:

Maybe include w3m on the distro cd and give a menu option to connect to archlinux org to access the online manual, pkg db, wiki, etc.

But what if the problem is they can't get their networking up?

dtw · 2005-04-04 06:35:53

But what if the problem is they can't get their networking up?

well we could go into that all day! what if the screen ain't compatible...etc

people have said before that having an irc client and console browser would be very useful, and i'd be inclined to agree, having to rely on windows dual boots is a bit embarressing!

miqorz · 2005-04-04 06:38:08

That IS something the gentoo guys got right with their "installer" disk.

Kern · 2005-04-04 10:42:17

In short, bung a cheat sheet, or a link to one, listing what to do and when, sequence of events etc on the main ISO download page.

Like a point-by-point version of the installation procedure, a sequential summary of what you will be doing.

Then put the link for the installation procedure beneath it and suggest strongly that both are downloaded and printed off as reference material *before* downloading / installing the distro.

From the Arch homepage, Wiki/Docs has been promoted to the top of the Support List. to make it more obvious that you read the Wiki/Faq before asking in the Forums.

Could the Installation guide and cheat sheet follow a similar vein, and be linked in the ISO Download page?

This would encourage its use *before* installation, and not as a recourse to help after the install has come to bits?

iphitus · 2005-04-04 11:42:33

irc client, links and maybe a cli tetris would make the install cd mighty fine

Try bastet for tetris Its on staging.

phrakture · 2005-04-04 14:21:03

I would say add a faq directly on the cd... I'd say man format...

jp_fielding · 2005-04-04 14:56:57

i have to agree with miqorz here. i like the way gentoo did this. i used lynx in another terminal and read the on cd install guide when trying to setup gentoo, not too bad.

eerok · 2005-04-04 16:09:07

Yeah, some more docs on the cd would be good, but I don't think anything fancy is required. Maybe a short faq to troubleshoot net connections, and a brief intro to pacman. I think job #1 for most people is getting on the net, and #2 is to start building the system.

The manual, wiki, pkg db, forum, etc. will help them get things working from there. I admit I haven't looked at the newbie info around here, but they should be pointed to this if they aren't already:

http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/

I think that any newbie who wants to learn should be made to feel welcome. So a little guidance is appropriate, but they have to do the learning part for themselves.

phrakture · 2005-04-04 16:14:19

eerok wrote:

I think that any newbie who wants to learn should be made to feel welcome. So a little guidance is appropriate, but they have to do the learning part for themselves.

agreed, however there is a big difference between welcoming one, and holding their hand - that I will not do.... if I can find the answer to a question by googling, that is the only response they'll get

Gullible Jones · 2005-04-04 20:02:15

Arch should not be "user friendly" in the "big fancy GUI" fashion. The current ideals are the right ones: keep things simple. If you know how to use a command line, Arch is not at all hard to use. If you don't know how to use a command line, then you can learn fast enough. If you don't want to learn, then don't try Arch.

MasonM · 2005-04-20 22:24:33

I thought the install was pretty simple and straight forward. Perhaps an installation guide on the cd wouldn't be a bad idea for someone who runs into problems.

sarah31 · 2005-04-23 01:59:00

how about a link to a noob distro?

yak8998 · 2005-04-23 02:49:32

lol you all crack me up. whats wrong with at least a FAQ on the install disc? and a manual? sheesh, we're becoming so elitist

PS whoa sweet sarah is back...?

miqorz · 2005-04-23 05:08:24

sarah31 wrote:

how about a link to a noob distro?

I think it should be a command that opens lynx to www.google.com.

sweiss · 2005-04-23 09:39:16

MasonM wrote:

Perhaps an installation guide on the cd wouldn't be a bad idea for someone who runs into problems.

I second that.

Kern · 2005-04-23 09:59:29

Any help surely has to match the level of experience of a user.

Its not leetist or insulting to suggest people try a "newb type" distro. Its practical.
It Builds confidence, lets a user get a feel of things without resulting in total failure at every hurdle.

Giving a true newb a copy of Arch and a FAQ/instruction, maybe as much use as giving a dictionary to a dyslexic hoping it to be sufficient help in the writing of a novel.

i remember how totally defeated i was with Redhat 5.0 which that came with the Learn Linux in 24hrs (lies! lies!) released by SAMS. Even the most basic of terms were lost on me.

sarah31 · 2005-04-23 19:48:19

From the route I took to first installing Arch made for a pretty easy install. I don't think that that really is needed ... well unless the user did not copy down the installing instructions before installing.

Having the installation instructions on the CD would not be a bad idea but what user will know how to access them without some sort of prompt and remembering how brutal back stepping was in the installation process I don't know if it would even work.

The best thing is to make the install instructions and other manual crap to be as clear as possible.

I just don't know because other than some initial getting used to thing back in 0.3 days arch was pretty easy to use right from install through to when I stopped using it.

I suppose one thing that could make things easier is for packagers to be very sure that they have functioning packages and not semi working or broken ones. Having as many feature enabled without adding bloat to the package usually is a good thing too.

ozar · 2005-04-23 20:43:02

I've only been using Arch for a couple months, but I like it just the way it is.

This may sound odd, but the more effort you put into making a distro easier to use, the more complex it becomes, at least in my opinion. I find Arch far simpler to use and maintain than those supposedly "easy" distros such as Mandriva and SuSE.

Good documentation, along with friendly community forums and a good wiki are the best things to help newbies become established Arch users. I found the wiki particularly helpful when I first started using Arch. :idea:

i3839 · 2005-04-23 20:51:13

sarah31 wrote:

how about a link to a noob distro?

Aww, don't be that harsh. They didn't even got their internet working yet, and you ask them to go use it. ;-)

Though that's one good reason to add the docs to the cd, so people can save print paper if they really want the docs handy.

What about the following message after loging in the install cd:

Installation docs can be found in $DOCDIR.
For a fully automatic Arch install, run "auto".

$ auto

Please consider using another, more newbie friendly distro than Arch, like $URL2THIS or $THAT. 

Read about Arch's philosophy $HERE.

iphitus · 2005-04-24 13:23:42

Well.... on archie there's going to be a GUI HD-install.

Now before you flame me with it, it's essentially an X version of the standard Arch Linux install, it pulls up a text editor to edit config files, and pulls up cfdisk for you to do your partitions yourself.

Except, I added a tab to it, 'help' in which I put the appropriate section from the install guide, so the guide is there next to the install. And thats the only real difference, apart from the fact its GTK2 instead of bash+dialog.

As for the install guide..... When I started with Arch, I didnt know it existed, its hardly obvious. I didnt need it at all, partitioning, editing config files was a breeze, and i was more than comfortable doing that.
But it would be good to put it in a more prominant position.

iphitus

Gullible Jones · 2005-04-24 19:36:38

Screw GUIs. For new users, I have two words: man pages!

iphitus · 2005-04-25 02:26:26

Gullible Jones wrote:

Screw GUIs. For new users, I have two words: man pages!

Oh please, grow up. Dont be an RTFM Bastard because u th1nk y0u'r3 s0 pr0. Get over it.

I remember when I did start using linux, man pages may as well have been written in latin, i wouldnt have understood more.

Besides wheres your man page for rc.conf? /etc/conf.d/wireless? the arch setup?
man setup gives me documentation for a C function.

There isnt a man page for everything. Grow up and dont be such a prick just because you think you know so much. You dont.

iphitus

Arch Linux

#1 2005-04-04 04:56:20

"Something" more to help new users?

#2 2005-04-04 05:07:01

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#3 2005-04-04 05:57:44

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#4 2005-04-04 06:02:23

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#5 2005-04-04 06:35:53

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#6 2005-04-04 06:38:08

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#7 2005-04-04 10:42:17

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#8 2005-04-04 11:42:33

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#9 2005-04-04 14:21:03

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#10 2005-04-04 14:56:57

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#11 2005-04-04 16:09:07

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#12 2005-04-04 16:14:19

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#13 2005-04-04 20:02:15

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#14 2005-04-20 22:24:33

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#15 2005-04-23 01:59:00

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#16 2005-04-23 02:49:32

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#17 2005-04-23 05:08:24

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#18 2005-04-23 09:39:16

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#19 2005-04-23 09:59:29

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#20 2005-04-23 19:48:19

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#21 2005-04-23 20:43:02

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#22 2005-04-23 20:51:13

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#23 2005-04-24 13:23:42

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#24 2005-04-24 19:36:38

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#25 2005-04-25 02:26:26

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

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