"Something" more to help new users?

poetofnumbers · 2005-04-25 05:31:11

I had been playing with Red Hat before I moved to Arch Linux. While I wasn't a real newbie, I wasn't a master in any sense. I found Arch's clean and simple install easy to use. If I had any troubles, the man pages, forums, and internet were enough to get me through any troubles I have had. So I do not feel that much needs to be done to this distro to make it more beginner friendly. I am of the opinion that simplicity --- in implementation, use, and language --- is one of the best ways to attain ease of use.

Many people seem to be of the opinion that adding more Arch specific documentation, such as wikis, install guide, etc., are a good addition to the install cd. I agree. Man page format would be nice, plain text format might also be good. Other people rightly caution that hand holding will be counterproductive. Honestly telling a user they aren't ready for Arch Linux is more compassionate than trying to enable every user to run Arch. So I think another thing we can do is provide potential users a method of assessing their own skills in order to determine if they are capable of running Arch with some level of independence. I'm not calling for a test, but a list of commands they should know or books they could read through could be beneficial. The live CD is a great step forward in this direction for a user to assess their own skill level and comfort with the OS. This is just my two cents.

murkus · 2005-04-25 10:46:34

poetofnumbers wrote:

Many people seem to be of the opinion that adding more Arch specific documentation, such as wikis, install guide, etc., are a good addition to the install cd. I agree.
...
I'm not calling for a test, but a list of commands they should know or books they could read through could be beneficial. The live CD is a great step forward in this direction for a user to assess their own skill level and comfort with the OS. This is just my two cents.

Hear hear!

In my opinion Arch isn't difficult for a relatively noobie user (such I was before) if one is open to learning. Problem is that noobie might not know where to start. There is volumes of information that you can read, but not everything is necessary to get started.

Collecting useful prerequisite links as starting point wouldn't be a bad idea.

That's my 0.02€

.murkus

viniosity · 2005-04-28 01:14:18

I think the install process for arch is pretty straight forward. That being said I have no objection if a faq got put on the cd or something. What might be more useful though is help with the last steps.

What I mean by that is... let's say a newbie got Arch installed and is now familiar with pacman. What's next? How do they tweak their system so that it's perfect? This, IMHO, is where the newbie user really needs the help of the advanced user.

A great example (and a reason Ubuntu is so popular): http://www.ubuntuguide.org/

Arch's wikis are good but Ubuntu's have way more content for the newbie desktop user.

iphitus · 2005-04-28 02:26:12

One last thing, some say that newbies should use a newbie distro, many of them have, but at some stage or another they want to learn and those distros tend to cover a lot up.

Arch is a good distro to learn some of the internals and how things work. Things are simple, while exposing how things work.

iphitus

CyberTron · 2005-04-28 09:18:04

I agree with iphitus!

and I am looking forward to his installer...I like the archie project...it is nice and have the goals that I believe the newbie archie might find useful..

i also agree that more faq inside the installer would be fine...maybe even do some easy keyboard selection (like slackware perhaps?) or some other kind of localization..

I also agree with viniosity that the hardest part is how to tweak the system, how do I install gnome/kde/enlightenment and so on....maybe just put in a simple man page "man newbie" or something similar...that explains how to install some things (that man page might be brought up at first reboot into the system.)

miqorz · 2005-04-28 09:24:10

iphitus wrote:

One last thing, some say that newbies should use a newbie distro, many of them have, but at some stage or another they want to learn and those distros tend to cover a lot up.
Arch is a good distro to learn some of the internals and how things work. Things are simple, while exposing how things work.
iphitus

So you're saying the best way for people to learn about linux is to jump into an advanced distro and then dumb it down so they don't need to learn a thing?

Great logic.

dtw · 2005-04-28 09:28:21

Migorz - that's a blatant oversimplification of what iphitus is saying and you know it is

miqorz · 2005-04-28 09:30:26

And that a blatant misspelling of my name and YOU know it.

In all seriousness. He's basically saying: "Do as I say, Not as I do."

So pardon me while I call, "Bullshit".

Mr Green · 2005-04-28 12:40:07

miqorz wrote:

And that a blatant misspelling of my name and YOU know it.
In all seriousness. He's basically saying: "Do as I say, Not as I do."
So pardon me while I call, "Bullshit".

When in your opinion is it ok for someone to use Arch ?

What path of distros should they follow ?

When does someone become a linux user & not a newbie ?

If someone wants to try Arch then why put them off ?

It may not suit them then they move on to something end of story

Archie fills the gap try before you buy.....

miqorz · 2005-04-28 12:48:57

I'm so fucking sick of the linux community...

I don't give a damn who uses anything. As long as we don't bend over backwards to change a good thing for a small group of people so they'll convert to our distro.

I'd hate to see Arch turn into what Gentoo is these days, If worse comes to worse. I'll switch to Crux or LFS. *shrug*

phrakture · 2005-04-28 14:54:01

not to be a mom here, but can we watch the explatives a bit? it's counterproductive...

as far as I see it, miqorz - you're not bending over backwards to do anything for newbies... someone else is. Think of it like charity... no one ever says "charity organizations are stupid because I have to help out" - no you don't... if you feel something is stupid and not worth the effort, simply don't do it - I think the original topic was looking for ideas and trying to spurn the community to help out... there are those that will and those that won't.

viniosity · 2005-04-28 15:34:18

phrakture: that might be one of the most insightful comments I've seen on any linux board in years. Kudos!

Probably one of the few reasons I am not jumping on the Ubuntu bandwagon is that one of their forum moderators has such a poor attitude towards newbies. We were all newbies once. And, it's impossible to know everything about everything so, while you may be really competent with getting gnome just the way you like it, you may have no idea how to set up firewall rules or use snort. That's why places like this exist and that's why it's important that the community be open (and inviting) to all users -- new and old.

i3839 · 2005-04-28 16:07:20

Oversimplification of reality:

There are two kind of newbies,

1) Those that just ask questions. Help them or leave them alone.

2) Those that complain that nothing is automatically as they want it to be. Those you may enlighten, though stay civil (which isn't always the same as nice).

miqorz · 2005-04-28 17:40:09

i3839 wrote:

Oversimplification of reality:
There are two kind of newbies,
1) Those that just ask questions. Help them or leave them alone.
2) Those that complain that nothing is automatically as they want it to be. Those you may enlighten, though stay civil (which isn't always the same as nice).

That's utterly beyond an oversimplification.

To quote donnie darko here..

"Okay. But you're not listening to me. There are other things that need to be taken into account here. Like the whole spectrum of human emotion. You can't just lump everything into these two categories and then just deny everything else!"

I don't have problems with helping these newbies. But changing the distro is not the answer.

i3839 · 2005-04-28 18:20:53

No one is talking about changing the distro except you. Arch doesn't change if newbies use it, so what's your problem?

Newbies should use Arch, so they learn the real beauty of Linux, instead of staying slave of some random GUI wrapper for the rest of their life.

You seem to have the false assumption that Arch must change to become newbie friendly. Only thing that needs changing is the allergic reaction of some Arch users toward newbies.

And if some people do thing which you don't agree with, so what? As long as it doesn't bother you, why care?

jerem · 2005-04-28 19:53:35

I personnally learnt how to set up my system with Gentoo. Why ? Because their documentation is awesome. It's their strongest point, I think.

Why is Gentoo's doc a good doc ?

It is exhaustive, though easy to read and very eye-candy. It has an example for every step of the configuration and the user is never blocked because the doc did not fully explain a step.

But I understand Arch does not have much doc writers...
Anyway, I'm a veteran now...
Also know that this is not a troll, I prefer Arch to Gentoo.

miqorz · 2005-04-28 22:12:35

i3839 wrote:

No one is talking about changing the distro except you. Arch doesn't change if newbies use it, so what's your problem?
Newbies should use Arch, so they learn the real beauty of Linux, instead of staying slave of some random GUI wrapper for the rest of their life.
You seem to have the false assumption that Arch must change to become newbie friendly. Only thing that needs changing is the allergic reaction of some Arch users toward newbies.
And if some people do thing which you don't agree with, so what? As long as it doesn't bother you, why care?

Hey, I'm just saying. I don't support changing the distro to best suit the loest common denominator.

Kern · 2005-04-28 22:55:06

Hey, I'm just saying. I don't support changing the distro to best suit the loest common denominator.

now that i can agree with.

Help a "newb" understand how arch works ? yes

Help a "newb" through installing etc ? yes

start messing with the distro to accomodate a "newbs" incapacity or inexperience , no.

Teach a guy performance driving, dont re-mod the car so anyone can drive it, but only at 2 miles per hour.

iphitus · 2005-04-28 23:28:18

miqorz, you way oversimplified my words.

If including the install guide and usefull documentation with the distro is dumbing it down totally, then you have a warped concept of a dumbed down distro.

if you dont have anything usefull to contribute, please dont, you've already turned a good discussion into a mud fight.

miqorz · 2005-04-29 00:26:36

If you don't want my opinions. Don't read the forum.

Since when is saying what I DON'T want done something to be considered a mud fight?

i3839 · 2005-04-29 01:08:29

Ok, enough.

miqorz, please reread what iphitus actually said and what you yourself have said.

And if you're going to give you opinion again then please try to do it in a slightly more polite way, thank you very much.

miqorz · 2005-04-29 01:26:45

Since when am I only allowed to comment on what has been proposed? I'm simply saying. "I'm for helping newbies, Just don't do it at the expense of the distro." And if you can't "get" that. Simply ignore my posts. Simple.

phrakture · 2005-04-29 03:33:26

I must point out that, for no direct fault of his own, miqorz posts always seem confrontational - kinda like sarah31... I'd say it's "tone", but you can't really get tone from text... I dunno how to explain it

miqorz raises some good points, but let me say this: is there anyway you can take the "edge" off, miqorz? I respect your ideas and things, but, as i3839 said, it just doesn't seem "polite" - I'm not trying to blame you or anything, just pointing out something you may not be aware of (kinda like "hey, dude, you got some cheeseburger in your moustache")

poetofnumbers · 2005-04-29 03:37:49

Wow, didn't think this post would have generated the response it has.

Sometimes compassionate acts appear to be anything but. I believe that Sarah's response of "direct new users to a newbie distribution" reflects what miqorz is trying to say. Telling a person who is new to Linux that they should try another Linux distro before trying Arch is one of the best things we can do for a new user, in my opinion.

I suspect that conflicting views will make it hard for this thread to stay on topic. Some of these views being:

· Everyone should use Arch Linux
· Everyone should use Linux
· Everyone should make up their own mind as to what OS they use

So far, I think we have gotten off the topic of making suggestions as to what Arch can do for new users. It seems we are now on the topic of whether Arch should change for new users. While this is an interesting topic, it is distinct from the original post.

I don't think there is any cheeseburger in my mustache, because I don't have a mustache.

phrakture · 2005-04-29 03:51:11

poetofnumbers wrote:

So far, I think we have gotten off the topic of making suggestions as to what Arch can do for new users. It seems we are now on the topic of whether Arch should change for new users. While this is an interesting topic, it is distinct from the original post.
I don't think there is any cheeseburger in my mustache, because I don't have a mustache.

ever the mature one, Mr. Klein Bottle...
I think in long threads like this most people just read the last handful of posts and it becomes a game of Chinese Telephone.

Anyway, I'll try to spurn this in a better direction:
When I hear a newbie say "I want to try linux", I try to evaluate things based on the person (I don't believe in universal truths....) and not on the fact that (s)he'sa newbie. Some people work alot better by just jumping in - the first time I changed the breaks on my car was like that... I bought the brakes and just jacked the car up in my driveway - yeah it took some time, but now I can do it in like 10 minutes.
Others, however, tend not to be interested in learning. They want to do things in a "black box" sort of fashion - here's my inputs, what do I get out? These types don't care about the inner workings, so would have a harder time understanding linux.

Type A I tell them to try Arch, with a warning. Type B, I point them toward SuSe or (ugh) Mandriva - maybe even RedHat... *shrug*

Arch Linux

#26 2005-04-25 05:31:11

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#27 2005-04-25 10:46:34

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#28 2005-04-28 01:14:18

Re: "Something" more to help new users?

#29 2005-04-28 02:26:12

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#30 2005-04-28 09:18:04

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#31 2005-04-28 09:24:10

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#32 2005-04-28 09:28:21

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#33 2005-04-28 09:30:26

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#34 2005-04-28 12:40:07

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#35 2005-04-28 12:48:57

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#36 2005-04-28 14:54:01

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#37 2005-04-28 15:34:18

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#38 2005-04-28 16:07:20

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#39 2005-04-28 17:40:09

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#40 2005-04-28 18:20:53

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#41 2005-04-28 19:53:35

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#42 2005-04-28 22:12:35

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#43 2005-04-28 22:55:06

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#44 2005-04-28 23:28:18

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#45 2005-04-29 00:26:36

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#46 2005-04-29 01:08:29

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#47 2005-04-29 01:26:45

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#48 2005-04-29 03:33:26

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#49 2005-04-29 03:37:49

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#50 2005-04-29 03:51:11

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