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#1 2005-04-18 20:03:24

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

Hi all,

I was wondering... I hear all this talk about people migrating from Slackware to Arch now, so is Arch the first distro to do what it does? I know a very VERY crude example is stating Arch is a binary version of Gentoo.

I know of Debian with its precompiled packages and apt, but then they add debconf and almost never update packages other than ones that most people notice (eg. firefox)

Slackware I have never tried but I realise that it has no DEFAULT package manager, but allows every configuration to be done manually.

Arch I have always seen as the first distro to marry the two concepts: package manager with binary packages (also i686!) and manual configuration.

Am I right? Or is/was there a distro that has the same concepts? I have heard of Crux obviously but again, I know nothing substantial about it.

Thanks


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#2 2005-04-18 20:37:31

shadowhand
Member
From: MN, USA
Registered: 2004-02-19
Posts: 1,142
Website

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

From what I've gathered, Arch was created based on the _ideas_ of Slack and Crux. It's developed completely from scratch (based on LFS in the beginning) and appears to be one of a kind. Frugalware has recently appeared and from the looks of things, it's a Arch clone using Pacman, but aimed at being more user friendly. Overall, it's not really different from Arch right now, but it's also very new and doesn't appear to have a lot of community base right now.


·¬»· i am shadowhand, powered by webfaction

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#3 2005-04-18 21:43:01

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

Maybe it is one of a kind then.


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#4 2005-04-18 22:23:35

jerem
Member
From: France
Registered: 2005-01-15
Posts: 310

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

Arch is Gentoo's power with Slackware's simplicity and configurability.

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#5 2005-04-18 22:34:59

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

I realize that comparison is how many people understand foreign concepts, but I don't think arch is that foreign to thinking that we need to abstract to the point of constant comparison with other distributions.

Slack is fine for people who like slack, Gentoo is fine for people who like gentoo, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

ArchLinux is a binary distribution with a simple, but powerful, package manager. It relies almost entirely on the user for system configuration (no default configuration utilities).
I think constantly comparing it to gentoo, slackware, and others, does a disservice not only to ArchLinux and the ArchDevs, but to Gentoo and Slackware users and devs alike.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#6 2005-04-18 23:34:51

polarrr
Member
Registered: 2004-09-12
Posts: 91

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

shadowhand wrote:

Frugalware has recently appeared and from the looks of things, it's a Arch clone using Pacman, but aimed at being more user friendly. Overall, it's not really different from Arch right now, but it's also very new and doesn't appear to have a lot of community base right now.

Allegedly Frugal's connection with Arch is only pacman and the system itself is dissimilar to Arch, or so they insist on their forum. Not that it's important, but I thought I'd add to that.

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#7 2005-04-19 00:01:36

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

cactus,

comparing distros doesn't do a disservice to any developers. It's always best to know where people get their ideas from, whether or not distro A is unique or copied a concept from B.

One of the reasons I ask, is because of some bugs that keep appearing in Arch. I am finding myself constantly wondering whether or not I should persist with Arch or wait until it is really truly stable. The worst bug I've encoutered yet is the current Gnome bug where if you do a fresh installation and install gnome, the gconf schemas are "wrong" and no panels are available. (that just happened after trying to reinstall arch on my laptop)

but back to the original topic: distro comparison is a good way to understand the underlying concepts behind distributions. what makes them tick, and if they are indeed "original"

an example: can anyone state differences between Arch vs Slackware with swaret? The only thing I can think of is that Judd Vinnet isn't a dictator like Pat (at least in my eyes) and that Slackware is a lot more stable


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#8 2005-04-19 09:15:51

lucke
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2004-11-30
Posts: 4,018

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

You're waiting for Arch to be truly 'stable'? You think it's a matter of time? ;-)
I'd say it's a matter of philosophy. Bleeding edge must mean some minor bugs (personally I haven't had any bigger problems so far, if any at all). With rapidly evolving opensource software the only way to have all the things work without any glitches ever is to use debian's stable branch ;-)

But, obviously, version 0.7 clearly implies, that Arch is a beta software ;-)

Nahnah, the only purpose of this post it to point out the errors in yours (and some other people's) reasoning, it wasn't meant to be offensive or anything. Don't wait for Arch to be stable, that day shall never come :-)

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#9 2005-04-19 09:44:56

scarecrow
Member
From: Greece
Registered: 2004-11-18
Posts: 714

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

Arch will never be "stable", as it is bleeding edge by definition.
And neither swaret, nor slapt-get will ever come close to pacman, for a very simple reason: Slack packages don't hold any dependencies information. The simplest way to break Slack beyond any repair is getting and installing unofficial packages.


Microshaft delenda est

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#10 2005-04-19 14:09:34

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

I know about bleeding edge and all that, the only bugs that sometimes do my head in are the mistakes made by Arch developers in packages. I know they are human and all, but almost every time I either recommend Arch or reinstall it on a new pc, they're are errors which prevent normal usage, real showstoppers.

I really like Arch and how everything is kept simple. I find myself constantly returning even after a small distro hunt! I'm gonna stick with Arch, I just wish I could keep it as my main OS.


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#11 2005-04-19 21:30:33

IceRAM
Member
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2004-03-04
Posts: 772
Website

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

kcy29581 wrote:

I know about bleeding edge and all that, the only bugs that sometimes do my head in are the mistakes made by Arch developers in packages. I know they are human and all, but almost every time I either recommend Arch or reinstall it on a new pc, they're are errors which prevent normal usage, real showstoppers.

The text I've bolded made me write the following thing: if you know how to fix those bugs, please do & report back (or at least provide enough information to fill in a valid bug report).

I really like Arch and how everything is kept simple. I find myself constantly returning even after a small distro hunt! I'm gonna stick with Arch, I just wish I could keep it as my main OS.

As you said, everything is kept simple. If it's simple, mistakes should be obvious. If they are not obvious, than maybe programs are not well documented, relations between packages are not documented etc. Bugs like the one you've encoutered make you check how does it work. If you're so keen in using Gnome, you might already know it's inner workings.

I have recently reinstalled Arch on my computer (ex-HDD almost died) and I can say I am impressed. I use KDE and this "bloated" environment worked right from the very begining. It is true that, during the KDE testing process I have reported some bugs, but that's because I understand how it works. I wanted it work for me, so I made it so.. helping others at the same time. DEs don't change often so spending some time on tinkering an installation might provide usefull for the long run.

You should understand that Arch is not for beginners (as said in the documentation). You can't recommend it to someone not willing to learn something new. You should also be aware of possible glitches which can be resolved by hand, because Arch provides a transparent medium to the inner workings of the system.

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#12 2005-04-20 05:59:01

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

ok, let me clarify: every bug I have encountered I have NEVER been the first to see it. Someone always beats me and has either posted it in the forums or submitted it as a bug.

IceRAM, fine you use KDE. Well, try reinstalling now with Gnome. Guess what will happen? You wont see what you expested... Menus missing, a grey bar with..nothing on top. If you don't believe me, then check the bugs list. Its the second one, marked critical. And I still am not satisfied with the answer of whoever is supposed to fix this. The script he has provided didn't work and if you read the comments, I'm not the only one saying so.

When I say Arch developers/maintainers make mistakes, I mean exactly that. If you can allow a bug to slip in when you had already identified it (read the bug info...) well, what can I say?

I DON'T know how to fix those bugs, if I did I would do so.

Because I use Gnome, does not imply I know it's inner workings. Not everyone who uses Linux is a coder. But at the same time I expect some professionalism from the relevant maintainer. Can you seriously say that his reply "When upstream packages are eventually upgraded, then I'll make sure the bug is fixed" is acceptable!? What about people who actually wan't to use Gnome now? I can imagine people saying: "Tough luck"

And about me recomending it to someone new... Lets see now, you have no idea who I've recomended it to and yet you imply I'm not a "good enough" user for Arch. How about ex-Slack and ex-Debian users (I've had my talk about this in a previous post) who liked Arch's approach but felt dissolusioned by showstopper bugs? And every time the reply is "Sorry, I forgot..." "Sorry, I let the bug slip in again...".

I would love to use Arch as my main distro but if I can't even have a working Gnome environment what's the point? All I've heard is "Linux is about choice" So I hope noone decides to say "use something else for now..."

The users are here to help as much as we can, but not to do the work that is the RESPONSIBILITY of others.

Thats my rant IceRAM


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#13 2005-04-20 08:08:10

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 460

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

smile :twisted:

When I say Arch developers/maintainers make mistakes, I mean exactly that. If you can allow a bug to slip in when you had already identified it (read the bug info...) well, what can I say?

What can you say .... maybe "i accept that life is imperfect but i will endeavour to do the best i can with the tools i've chosen / been given"

Not everyone who uses Linux is a coder. But at the same time I expect some professionalism from the relevant maintainer

What a ripoff, its not on, The Bas*ards ! Demand your money back.

I would love to use Arch as my main distro but if I can't even have a working Gnome environment what's the point?

Aint no-one begging you to use Arch.
Find a suitable WM/DE or swap to Slackware and pester Mr Volkerding with the same tedious point.
===
Disclaimer: These are my own sarcastic underhand impolite personal opinions and may not reflect any views held by the Arch community at large, or anyone else for that matter, this dimension or otherwise.

Eric J Spiggotfeatures. CEO/Sysadmin/Bignob/Coder/JaPH/Mankwangler

smile :twisted:

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#14 2005-04-20 11:55:35

IceRAM
Member
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2004-03-04
Posts: 772
Website

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

kcy29581 wrote:

Well, try reinstalling now with Gnome. Guess what will happen? You wont see what you expested... Menus missing, a grey bar with..nothing on top. If you don't believe me, then check the bugs list. Its the second one, marked critical. And I still am not satisfied with the answer of whoever is supposed to fix this. The script he has provided didn't work and if you read the comments, I'm not the only one saying so.

to clarify: I didn't say it wasn't a bug.

I said that it's not always maintainer's fault.
A community is essential for marking a package/app good within a distro. Feedback is crucial. Many users just sit back and expect everything to work in a bleeding edge distro. That's not how it goes.

Some of the more experienced users feel adventurous and test packages before their release. There have been talks about how many users try a package while it is in testing. Results weren't very pleasant.

Communication between a maintainer and the users is essential, because maintainers don't have the same setups as the users do and anything can happen within monolith applications. Other than that, I can say that integration problems don't solve in an instant. Patience is necessary. The maintainer is not the developer of the monolith application, and it's not easy to spot and fix an integration problem, especially when it affects multiple packages.

You remind me of some users who managed to try ArchLinux exactly when KDE had some desktop integration problems... you have the same reaction. History repeats, but with Gnome.

Is that so difficult to understand that this is a bleeding edge distro, with bleeding edge problems?
Stay around a few months - you'll see what bleeding edge means and, at the same time, you'll also develop a feeling on how to keep your system stable.

Want bleeding edge-stability out of the box? There's no such thing... sorry.

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#15 2005-04-20 17:34:31

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

IceRAM,

you're not understanding what I'm saying... What is your definition of a "bleeding edge problem" as you have put it? I would say if the stable release has problems unknown to Arch devs which pop up, then THAT IS NOT THEIR FAULT! What IS their fault is when they add bugs to the whole thing. I will remind you of a previous thread (which now is locked, figures) where I am not the only one who thinks that certain Arch devs/maintainers are sitting on their asses and doing nothing/little.

I am perfectly happy to have bleeding edge problems where the ORIGINAL devs have made mistakes, bu the whole thing is stupid of other people add to the mess. The many cooks f*&k up the meal saying comes to mind.

Communication: like I've said (like I always say but noone gets it) I help any way I can, but I am annoyed when prolems are faced and the attitude is "we'll fix it when that developer releases another update to the program which I've messed up" That's got nothing to do with bleeding edge: that's just plain lazy!

And as a final note to you, what is the testing repo for then? Imaginary stable releases from the land of chocolate bunnies??? I do not choose the testing repo on my main pc, however I have used it when I had a second pc for, gess what? -> TESTING...

Kern,

funny remarks! But I don't get it: you only repeat stuff I've said before (I DO try to help as much as I can... what am I supposed to do, open a seperate bug report just to confuse the devs even more...? Or you add stuff where my quote and your answer have no relevance...

Anyways, fun post!


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#16 2005-04-20 17:59:46

lucke
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2004-11-30
Posts: 4,018

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

Easy, easy.

I guess it's time for you to grab LFS and create your own perfect distro. In which you'll be the one and only, the most 1337 dev, who shall spend 24 h a day trying to get that everchanging opensource stuff working together. Imagine, that those guys, who allowed many of us to find their homes ;-), actually have their own lives. They spend lots of their free time, which isn't much anyway due to jobs and schools, trying to satisfy us all. Not to mention that it could even get boring after few years, right? Where does the motivation come from, huh? Obviously not from posts like yours ;-)

But hey, don't worry. If you don't feel like playing with LFS, have a look at DistroWatch. Hundreds of distro awaiting people, who want to have stable (not necessarily newest available) Gnome. Devs of Mandrake get payed for their work (on the other hand, does that make Mandrake any less buggy and stable than Arch? ;-)) Even Ubuntu devs probably get some other profits, aside satisfaction (project is  sponsored by Canonical, after all). And as a Gnome-based distro, they obviously got everything shining ;-)

Don't bother with Arch and its devs, who are just plain lazy. Nothing else. They don't spend all their time on reparing packages, bastards. They even allow upstream bugs to get into the distro! Unforgivable. In all my evilness, I reinstall my Arch daily, every time with different package set/DE, just to expose their failures. Mwaha!

Anyway, thanks for your great work, lazy devs ;-)

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#17 2005-04-20 18:15:56

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

lucke,

thats for the post. You're trying to calm people down aren't you! wink

but I do wish people read my posts from top to bottom... I will never ever blame Arch devs for upstream bugs (upstream I take it to be from the package makers, am I wrong?) But don't you see that right now, this moment in time, Arch cannot install Gnome properly from scratch? The script provided by the maintainer, opposed to remove this bug which he already knows of (he has admitted that he knows how to fix it!) does not work, and rather than fixing it, he will wait for an update to the package!!! Am I the only person who thinks this is wrong? He has a life, but he has time to write a miracle script which does not work....

Please.. someone READ EVERYTHING IN THE POSTS!!! before you reply!!!

oh and I hope the devs read this and actually fix the problem mentioned rather than locking posts that make them seem lazy.


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#18 2005-04-20 18:31:44

lucke
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2004-11-30
Posts: 4,018

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

I do (at least I try to ;-)) read the posts from top to bottom. If I didn't contradict your words properly, it's because the latter post was meant to be a bit sarcastic ;-) And I've read a bit of similar posts recently, so things could get messed up. Anyway, I've been reffering solely to the problem of the 'lazyness' of devs.

Honestly, it could obviously be really annoying when something (especially when it's crucial) doesn't work properly and people responsible for the given part of the software seem to ignore your distress calls :-) But, as I said, devs are aren't some kind of homo superior (or am I wrong? ;-)), they're humans as we are and to err is human, as we all know ;-) I don't use Gnome myself, I don't know anything about current problems (aside of that you have said here in this topic), but upgrading to KDE 3.4 wasn't the easiest thing either, believe me. Such things happen, I don't think making fuss about it would do much good. I'll add from myself, that a pretty important (imho) bug report concerning pam and sshd filled by me still isn't assigned. It's them again, those lazy devs! ;-)

The only thing I could wish you is to get those gnome issues resolved as quickly as possible :-) And if not, we have to remember that Linux isn't limited only to Arch. Many stars shining out there ;-)

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#19 2005-04-20 18:32:57

Dusty
Schwag Merchant
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
Website

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

kcy29581 wrote:

oh and I hope the devs read this and actually fix the problem mentioned rather than locking posts that make them seem lazy.

Devs don't read the forums because there are too many idiotic posts to sift through, and they're busy either maintaining packages and developing new systems, or with some sort of "real life" (I do not know what this term means).

I didn't read the entire post because I don't care one whit about Gnome, and I have better things to do, like test a decent window manager such as wmii. However, from what I can infer from your last post, your best course of action if you want to be recognized by the developers is to fix this "magical script" so that it DOES work, and then provide the result to the bugtracker.

Dusty

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#20 2005-04-20 18:43:55

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

Dusty wrote:
kcy29581 wrote:

oh and I hope the devs read this and actually fix the problem mentioned rather than locking posts that make them seem lazy.

Devs don't read the forums because there are too many idiotic posts to sift through, and they're busy either maintaining packages and developing new systems, or with some sort of "real life" (I do not know what this term means).

One thing dusty forgot to mention - the devs don't lock posts... the moderators do - they're different jobs...

If you want to communicate to the devs, post in the bug tracker (please don't post nonsense) if you have a legitimate feature request or bug.  Also please search for an exisiting bug before posting there.

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#21 2005-04-20 18:51:27

kcy29581
Member
From: CA
Registered: 2004-12-23
Posts: 231

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

phrak, you're right, I apologise. My rant moment took the worst of me. The mods and devs are separate. My mistake.

I apologise!  :oops:

Dusty, I check the relevant bug post every day now for hours on end... The problem with the script has been mentioned and no reply (yet) from the maintainer.

And dont worry, like I said before I would never write stupid things in a bug report. They have too much work as it is rather than listening to crap.


There is no spoon in Arch...

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#22 2005-04-20 19:44:04

Gullible Jones
Member
Registered: 2004-12-29
Posts: 4,863

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

KCY: I've been there before, with the bugs and all... And from personal experience, I can tell you that one of the things that might cause bugs is a bad hard drive. Corruption of data caused by hitting the power switch before shutdown is done can also cause problems of that sort.

Also, Arch currently seems to be suffering a bit from lack of developers. There are more and more packages that need to be maintained, and the user base is growing as Arch gets more popular...

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#23 2005-04-20 19:49:57

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

Gullible Jones wrote:

Also, Arch currently seems to be suffering a bit from lack of developers. There are more and more packages that need to be maintained, and the user base is growing as Arch gets more popular...

Yes, hopefully AUR will blossom and the community repo will become a staple... that way the developers and package maintainers can work on the more complicated things...

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#24 2005-04-20 20:13:44

IceRAM
Member
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2004-03-04
Posts: 772
Website

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

kcy29581 wrote:

What is your definition of a "bleeding edge problem" as you have put it?

I have received the following information from an ArchLinux Gnome user: "arch is now using another way of registering gconf [a better one]" - referring to what's currently been implemented in the package, but broken. THAT's a bleeding edge problem, since it's BETTER (I didn't say it).

kcy29581 wrote:

I will remind you of a previous thread (which now is locked, figures) where I am not the only one who thinks that certain Arch devs/maintainers are sitting on their asses and doing nothing/little.

Thank you for reminding me of this.
That tells me I should not try to convince you what maintainers do, because you obviously have no intention of understanding them (& the fact that they have lives). Oh.. I actually forgot that ArchLinux is bleeding edge. I wonder how that could happen with all those lazy devs.

kcy29581 wrote:

Communication: like I've said (like I always say but noone gets it) I help any way I can, but I am annoyed when prolems are faced and the attitude is "we'll fix it when that developer releases another update to the program which I've messed up" That's got nothing to do with bleeding edge: that's just plain lazy!

First: it would be nice to know where that quote comes from, because that's false
Second: that's what revisions are for (revision: -1, -2...) - but you obviously don't get the packaging process

You seem to be having another definition for "communication within a software development community". Given also the history you have reminded me in the paragraph before, I think your communication relies only on bugging the package maintaiers and acting like you are about to get them unemployed for not delivering YOU the upgraded & correct package. That is one really selfish way of thinking. You are not being constructive and rational at all. Blaming the devs from the begining (that's what I've bolded in my first post) prooves that.

kcy29581 wrote:

And as a final note to you, what is the testing repo for then? Imaginary stable releases from the land of chocolate bunnies??? I do not choose the testing repo on my main pc, however I have used it when I had a second pc for, gess what? -> TESTING...

Do a forum search. You'll find some things about the relationship community - the testing repo. TESTING is mostly used when upgrading from one major version to another. The improvement to the Gnome packages was not supposed to bring regressive bugs. Oh, and you can always build yourself an older package version using ABS.

P.S. I don't want an answer. Just reflect on your attitude towards the community. Look at what others replied to you, see the sarcasm in the posts and think a little. I didn't want to point you to other distros from the begining (like others) thinking that you might actually understand something here, but I'm affraid I was wrong + I'm not an Arch dev and I don't use Gnome, that should tell you something.

P.S.2. I realize I spent a lot writing replies but I took it mostly as an exercise for my future English Presentation. Thank you and I wish you luck in your distro-exploration journey.

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#25 2005-04-21 10:08:29

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 460

Re: distribution similar to Arch? also a rant as of now

Full ack to iceram and dusty

kcy29581

Kern,  funny remarks!<snip>? Or you add stuff where my quote and your answer have no relevance...Anyways, fun post!

thankyou for taking it as fun, i think i didnt hint strong enough.

As to relevance..... My main objections are not to your original question, but the hidden agenda and arrogant comments that followed.

1. you start with a topic that asks a basicly simple innocuous question: distro comparison.
2: The hidden agenda then seems to be that you have problems not with Arch but Gnome integration, and you seek to blame someone for not keeping things up to a standard which you deem acceptable.
3. you maybe forget, before making these criticisms, that all this is supplied free of charge, and you have no right to expect anything at all. Opensource software is mainly supplied and supported by voluntary contribution and the goodwill of people in the community

Please feel free to ask questions and seek help, but, how dare you come in here and allocate blame and responsibility, as if you paid money, formed a contract, and expect a job of work to be done to your absolute satisfaction?

the only bugs that sometimes do my head in are the mistakes made by Arch developers in packages.

And I still am not satisfied with the answer of whoever is supposed to fix this.

Because I use Gnome, does not imply I know it's inner workings. Not everyone who uses Linux is a coder. But at the same time I expect some professionalism from the relevant maintainer.

The users are here to help as much as we can, but not to do the work that is the RESPONSIBILITY of others.

I would say if the stable release has problems unknown to Arch devs which pop up, then THAT IS NOT THEIR FAULT! What IS their fault is when they add bugs to the whole thing. I will remind you of a previous thread (which now is locked, figures) where I am not the only one who thinks that certain Arch devs/maintainers are sitting on their asses and doing nothing/little.

Arch cannot install Gnome properly from scratch? The script provided by the maintainer, opposed to remove this bug which he already knows of (he has admitted that he knows how to fix it!) does not work, and rather than fixing it, he will wait for an update to the package!!! Am I the only person who thinks this is wrong? He has a life, but he has time to write a miracle script which does not work....

try to remember that by downloading and using <anydistro> and posting on <anydistro>  forum, you are actually joining <anydistro>'s community. They aren't joining yours, or courting your approval.

I sincerely hope you find a distro you feel happy with, but please dont go wagging the finger if things dont turn out for you as you would like.

Kern
edit: my own opinions blah blah, disclaimer applies to this post.

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