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#1 2011-06-18 20:58:01

possiblefool
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2011-06-18
Posts: 29

Should I give Arch a try?

Hi, I am thinking of trying to install Arch on my laptop but thought I'd try and get an opinion or two before I started.

I've about 2 weeks experience of linux (mint 10). I came across some pages on Arch today, and I like the sound of it but cant decide whether it'd be a good way for me to learn Linux, or just a good way for me to waste a couple of days messing up an install before running back to a more newb friendly, out of the box distro. I've found a few beginners walk through's that make it all sound pretty doable, but in my short time with Linux I've found just because something works nicely on 1 PC, is no guarantee it'll work on another. I'm pretty good with a search engine and can navigate the terminal and follow clear instructions on code input, which according to some is enough skill to get a working custom Arch build up and running but there's quite a lot of not for newb nay-sayers out there as well.

My laptop is a Compaq Presario C500, which can support 64x but as it only has about 500mb of RAM and is largely used for listening to music, watching movies and web browsing, I was thinking I'd stick to the 32x, as I seem to come across more 64x specific issues but again I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Lastly I quite like look of the E17 desktop and the description it got in the archwiki (though I'm sure most Brits would agree, the name was a very bad choice),  but as it looks to be pretty new, would I be making life more difficult for myself opting for this in place of one of the more established desktop managers?

Sorry if these questions are a little mundane, but I thought it better to get some thoughts on these points now, rather than plough in, bodge it all and end up spamming the forum with questions or giving up halfway through and reinstalling mint cos I was out of my depth!

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#2 2011-06-18 21:13:53

Trindol
Member
Registered: 2008-12-17
Posts: 37

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

If you have only 2 weeks of experience you will probably be looking up many things, and likely make some mistakes. Arch is good to learn with for sure, but you have to want to read and search to figure some things out. It mostly depends on how easily frustrated you are at this point.

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#3 2011-06-18 21:21:33

SS4
Member
From: !Rochford, Essex
Registered: 2010-12-05
Posts: 699

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

possiblefool wrote:

Hi, I am thinking of trying to install Arch on my laptop but thought I'd try and get an opinion or two before I started.

I've about 2 weeks experience of linux (mint 10). I came across some pages on Arch today, and I like the sound of it but cant decide whether it'd be a good way for me to learn Linux, or just a good way for me to waste a couple of days messing up an install before running back to a more newb friendly, out of the box distro. I've found a few beginners walk through's that make it all sound pretty doable, but in my short time with Linux I've found just because something works nicely on 1 PC, is no guarantee it'll work on another. I'm pretty good with a search engine and can navigate the terminal and follow clear instructions on code input, which according to some is enough skill to get a working custom Arch build up and running but there's quite a lot of not for newb nay-sayers out there as well.

The only decent beginner walkthrough is the ArchWiki one (Link). That is more than good enough to set up an arch install for a majority of users. If it works for you or not? There is only one way to find out (FIGHT!)
Compared to mint I'd say arch is easier to maintain due to rolling release but you will have to be prepared to try to fix any errors yourself with the help of google. Installing is relatively easy thanks to the beginner's guide but you could be caught out if you're unwilling to learn how to edit files for yourself and to understand the system

My laptop is a Compaq Presario C500, which can support 64x but as it only has about 500mb of RAM and is largely used for listening to music, watching movies and web browsing, I was thinking I'd stick to the 32x, as I seem to come across more 64x specific issues but again I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

I can't tell a difference in speed between 64bit and 32bit although it's rare I use the latter. Flash, Skype and Wine tend to install more easily on a 32 bit OS though.

Lastly I quite like look of the E17 desktop and the description it got in the archwiki (though I'm sure most Brits would agree, the name was a very bad choice),  but as it looks to be pretty new, would I be making life more difficult for myself opting for this in place of one of the more established desktop managers?

*shudders* they were an abomination upon the world! Not used it though so who knows? You can have more than one desktop environment/window manager of course and its easy to switch compared to other distros (like mint where the whole DE was dependent on firefox!)

Sorry if these questions are a little mundane, but I thought it better to get some thoughts on these points now, rather than plough in, bodge it all and end up spamming the forum with questions or giving up halfway through and reinstalling mint cos I was out of my depth!

Np, the only way you can be sure is to try it for yourself. Just remember to back up important data


Rauchen verboten

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#4 2011-06-18 21:50:00

mhertz
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 2010-06-19
Posts: 681

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

I started with zenwalk, and shortly after went to arch while being a complete linux noob, and so it can easilly be done if you follow the beginners+official-guide and wiki + search the forums and 'net first before asking "stupid" questions!

Imho, then arch is fine for noobs, _provided_ that you're the kind of noob who isn't lazy and dosen't ask questions which easilly could be answered yourself by doing just a little research!

That's imho the bottom line essentially!

Oh, and on a 512mb system then arch32 would probably be a better match than arch64 imho...

Yes, you're going to have a "harder" time by using a stand-alone window manager instead of a full-blown desktop environment, but imho it's all worth it for the added flexibility and power you have over the final outcome of your own "home-rolled" desktop environment...

Last edited by mhertz (2011-06-18 22:04:17)

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#5 2011-06-18 21:51:07

ANOKNUSA
Member
Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

In the roughly eight months I've been using Arch I've seen this question asked several times and, generally speaking:  If you have to ask, then no, probably not.  The general vibe of the Arch Way emphasizes a DIY attitude, and self-sufficiency is valued in the Arch community.  If you need someone else to tell you whether or not Arch is for you, you've already made it clear that you're not yet ready to handle it.  Yes, there is a community here to help you out when you get seriously stuck; but by and large, you'll be expected to figure out most things on your own here.

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#6 2011-06-18 21:52:55

lukaszan
Member
Registered: 2011-05-05
Posts: 117

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

It really depends what you want.

Mint seems like a good distro, very good choice for starters. Haven't used it myself, but it being based on Debian/Ubuntu you're getting stablity, massive packages resources and eas of use.

With Arch, you really get none of these. Well, maybe packages, but I've heard Ubuntu still beats it hands down. Don't get me wrong, I think Arch is pretty cool, but:
a. it's not easy to use - it follows KISS principle, so all configuration is based on text files. You will need to read A LOT just in order to configure everything properly.
b. stability... - being a rolling distro, you get regular updgrades, and speaking from experience, every upgrade you run, brakes an app or two. If you don't understand the workings of linux you'll be just getting annoyed with it, reinstalling everything, etc.

If you have time, patience and will, I'd suggest to install Arch as a secondary distro, but leave Mint as your primary.

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#7 2011-06-18 21:58:55

barzam
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 277

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

Do it. You will never look back.

The best thing about Arch is the wiki, and you will learn to find the answers to all your questions and problems there.

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#8 2011-06-18 22:01:47

lilsirecho
Veteran
Registered: 2003-10-24
Posts: 5,000

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

Perhaps you would like to try arch in an easily generated manner.

CTKArchLive provides an arch-based system and is easily downloaded and installed with dd command.

It can be installed to flash drive( not affecting the HDD) and it runs in ram.  It is ~560MB download and can be either 32 bit or 64bit.

It is natively french but has english option as well as US keybd option.  The present release is 0.7.

It can be installed cp2ram if desired as a boot option.

Pacman is provided and changes can be made persistent with addons.

A second partition can be created after initial install to enable the storage of addons which are user created with an included addons program.

Try it and see for yourself...nothing lost.


Prediction...This year will be a very odd year!
Hard work does not kill people but why risk it: Charlie Mccarthy
A man is not complete until he is married..then..he is finished.
When ALL is lost, what can be found? Even bytes get lonely for a little bit!     X-ray confirms Iam spineless!

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#9 2011-06-18 22:02:04

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 19,739

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

Welcome to Arch,

Only you can answer the question.  If you are interesting in researching and self study with a great community of whom to ask questions, you will probably find it to be rewarding.  You will, however, not find a lot of hand holding.

Try it, or not; we don't really have a stake in it.  I suggest you start on an experimental machine that is not your primary computer until you gain some experience.


Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature -- Michael Faraday
Sometimes it is the people no one can imagine anything of who do the things no one can imagine. -- Alan Turing
---
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

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#10 2011-06-18 22:46:04

heleos
Member
From: Maine, USA
Registered: 2007-04-24
Posts: 678

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

ewaller wrote:

Welcome to Arch,

Only you can answer the question.  If you are interesting in researching and self study with a great community of whom to ask questions, you will probably find it to be rewarding.  You will, however, not find a lot of hand holding.

Try it, or not; we don't really have a stake in it.  I suggest you start on an experimental machine that is not your primary computer until you gain some experience.

As ewaller said, a great way to learn arch would be to install it inside virtualbox while you still run linuxmint

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#11 2011-06-18 22:47:56

possiblefool
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2011-06-18
Posts: 29

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

Crikey, pretty active community you have here then?!
Thanks for all the replys, I appreciate the input, positive or negative. I'll read up a bit more tomorrow, and will probably end up giving it a go, purely to find out if I can.. it'll be a learning experience whatever the outcome! Please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that I could break it so bad that I couldn't start again from a boot disk?!

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#12 2011-06-18 23:23:14

lexsoOr
Member
Registered: 2011-06-18
Posts: 1
Website

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

I installed archLinux yesterday, coming  from ubuntu and windows7, I love it so far. The wiki is great and you really learn how the OS is working. Installed gnome 3 today and configured everything (daemons etc.). I am totaly geeking out over here, BEST OS I had so far. I love how I can start the DE whenever I want and even which one I want. If you love to fiddle around with things and read a lot of wiki articles archLinux is the way to go.

P.S: as long as you don't flash your BIOS you should be ok wink

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#13 2011-06-19 21:17:05

vegan
Member
From: Grand Forks, ND, USA
Registered: 2011-06-13
Posts: 78

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

Take a look at my forum threads and tell me what you think:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=121108

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=120813

edit:

You asked about giving up Arch in frustration and returning to Linux Mint.

If you have more than one computer or a virtual machine, you can still have Linux Mint at the same time. I'm not giving up on Ubuntu anytime in the near future. The question is how much fun will you find messing around with the internals of Linux? If I understand your level of expertise, I would say you need to continue using a beginner friendly distro at the same time.

Last edited by vegan (2011-06-19 21:26:34)


The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Richard Stallman giveth and I take away!

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#14 2011-06-19 23:38:42

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

ANOKNUSA wrote:

If you have to ask, then no, probably not.

Very true in general


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#15 2011-06-22 00:58:18

esuhl
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2009-09-16
Posts: 140

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

I've tried loads of distros over the years (Red Hat, Suse, Slackware, Zenwalk, Ubuntu to name a few) and generally gave up after a few weeks using them because they just seemed to overcomplicate things in an attempt to be "user friendly".  The Arch installer doesn't install every application that anyone could ever need (you start with a minimalist command-line-only system) and guides you through the process of editing various configuration files directly, so you have a much better understanding of how your system works.

I still consider myself a newbie, but since installing Arch, I've learned a lot more about Linux than with the other distros.  For the first time I'm using Linux as my main OS and even installed it on my netbook and media server.

I probably wouldn't recommend Arch to someone who had never used Linux, but if you know the basics and like the Arch philosophy, I'd go for it and never look back!

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#16 2011-06-22 01:33:44

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,189

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

lukaszan wrote:

..Mint seems like a good distro, very good choice for starters. Haven't used it myself, but it being based on Debian/Ubuntu you're getting stablity, massive packages resources and eas of use.

Haven't used it, but recommending it? Presuming stability when it is based on Ubuntu? Or, Debian testing? Pure nonsense.
Presuming massive amounts of packages, while ignoring that Arch has just as much, if not more, available software than Ubuntu? You also ignored the poor condition or complete lack of decent documentation in those distros.

With Arch, you really get none of these. Well, maybe packages, but I've heard Ubuntu still beats it hands down.

Presumption, and falsehood.
Arch has over 30,000 packages in the AUR alone.

Don't get me wrong, I think Arch is pretty cool, but:
a. it's not easy to use - it follows KISS principle, so all configuration is based on text files. You will need to read A LOT just in order to configure everything properly.
b. stability... - being a rolling distro, you get regular updgrades, and speaking from experience, every upgrade you run, brakes an app or two. If you don't understand the workings of linux you'll be just getting annoyed with it, reinstalling everything, etc.

Again, pure presumption. Arch is very easy for its target user base.
As for your frequent 'brakage' [sic], I must conclude pebkac.

The Arch Way may, or may not, be better for you. The only way to tell is to try it.

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#17 2011-06-22 02:12:24

xiaq
Member
From: somewhere in China...
Registered: 2011-03-06
Posts: 89

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

Arch is simple in terms of design and for hackers, but not for beginners, compared to Mint or vanilla Ubuntu.

Given your short experience with Linux, I recommend you to stay in Mint for a few months before trying Arch. There is a lot of general Linux (or even general UNIX) stuff, like shell scripting, package management (the general idea, not apt or pacman), a TUI editor (vim/emacs/...) or IDE (Eclipse/...) if you program, that you can learn equally well in every distro. So - first things first. With Arch you'll (more or less) have trouble setting up your desktop environment, audio and video devices, network management, etc.. I know it's easy for most of people here (including me), but as a beginner you can get easily confused.

Of course you can figure everything out, but it will cost time - potentially a lot of time and efforts in vain, depending on your luck. This is not a problem of braveness etc., sometimes you just don't have the time.

Above is the usual talk I give to beginners wanting to try Arch and consulting me. If that doesn't scare you at all, go throw away Mint and install Arch. You absolutely deserve Arch.

Anyway, it's always a good idea to try it out in VirtualBox before installing on your hard disk. It costs you little so you may give up at any point. wink

Last edited by xiaq (2011-06-22 02:15:15)

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#18 2011-06-22 02:31:38

Haptic
Member
Registered: 2009-09-03
Posts: 149

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

I really really recommend practicing the install in a virtualbox and get at least a DE/WM setup with all your basic programs. This way, you can at get to a workable machine instead of something broken on the way.

Arch linux was my first and only distro ever and although it took me at least a month to get my installation down, everything is worth it in the end. smile

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#19 2011-06-22 05:32:32

vegan
Member
From: Grand Forks, ND, USA
Registered: 2011-06-13
Posts: 78

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

forgive me for my negativity or cynicism, but possible fool has only responded once, after the initial query, so it doesn't sound like he is still interested and we might just be wasting our breath to try to give more help. Though, if he comes back and writes some more, then that would be different.

Last edited by vegan (2011-06-22 05:32:59)


The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Richard Stallman giveth and I take away!

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#20 2011-06-22 05:54:10

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 19,739

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

vegan wrote:

forgive me ... that would be different.

Well said.


Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature -- Michael Faraday
Sometimes it is the people no one can imagine anything of who do the things no one can imagine. -- Alan Turing
---
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

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#21 2011-06-22 07:11:14

lukaszan
Member
Registered: 2011-05-05
Posts: 117

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

Misfit138 wrote:
lukaszan wrote:

..Mint seems like a good distro, very good choice for starters. Haven't used it myself, but it being based on Debian/Ubuntu you're getting stablity, massive packages resources and eas of use.

Haven't used it, but recommending it? Presuming stability when it is based on Ubuntu? Or, Debian testing? Pure nonsense.
Presuming massive amounts of packages, while ignoring that Arch has just as much, if not more, available software than Ubuntu? You also ignored the poor condition or complete lack of decent documentation in those distros.

With Arch, you really get none of these. Well, maybe packages, but I've heard Ubuntu still beats it hands down.

Presumption, and falsehood.
Arch has over 30,000 packages in the AUR alone.

Don't get me wrong, I think Arch is pretty cool, but:
a. it's not easy to use - it follows KISS principle, so all configuration is based on text files. You will need to read A LOT just in order to configure everything properly.
b. stability... - being a rolling distro, you get regular updgrades, and speaking from experience, every upgrade you run, brakes an app or two. If you don't understand the workings of linux you'll be just getting annoyed with it, reinstalling everything, etc.

Again, pure presumption. Arch is very easy for its target user base.
As for your frequent 'brakage' [sic], I must conclude pebkac.

The Arch Way may, or may not, be better for you. The only way to tell is to try it.

This made me laugh, this...

I thought words like 'seem', 'haven't used it myself' and 'I've heard' indicate clearly enough that it's not something I know for certain, but thanks for pointing this out. Apologies if I confused anyone else.

I've used Ubuntu and I've used Debian, and it would SEEM that a distro based on those would share their characteristics. I might completely wrong though. As for documentation, Ubuntu's forum is one of the best out there. It is the most popular distro so you have every chance of finding answers to ALL your questions there, I know I did when I was using Ubuntu.

Arch may well be easy for it's target audience, but whether beginners are it's target audience, I would dispute that:

Arch Linux users fully manage the system on their own. The system itself will offer little assistance, except for a simple set of maintenance tools that are designed to perfectly relay the user's commands to the system.

This user-centric design necessarily implies a certain "do-it-yourself" approach to using the Arch distribution. Rather than pursuing assistance or requesting a new feature to be implemented by developers, Arch Linux users have a tendency to solve problems themselves and share the results with the community and development team – a "do first, then ask" philosophy.

And my favourite bit about the pebcak. Simple scenario:
1. application X works
2. sudo pacman -Syu
3. application X doesn't work

Where does my incompetence come into play here, I'll leave for the viewers to figure out (and please PM me once you do). I've run 3 major upgrades recently (I only run them once avery couple of weeks, they are too much of a lottery) and they all broke something (lirc, vlc, and midori, i chronological order). Besides a quick look at the forum and a sheer number of threads 'Application X doesn't work after recent upgrade', 'Recent upgrade broke Application Y', etc. I think speak for themselves.

P.S. I'm not critisizing Arch in general, I wouldn't be using it if I thought it was rubbish, but there are areas where other ditsros are superior.

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#22 2011-06-22 07:17:40

litemotiv
Forum Fellow
Registered: 2008-08-01
Posts: 5,026

Re: Should I give Arch a try?

Ok possiblefool certainly has more than enough good advice now to make up his mind. If he decides to try out Arch he can start separate threads for any practical issues he may run into.

This one has run it's course, closed. smile


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