Dear FVWM users

Dusty · 2005-06-25 17:12:56

I'm getting tired of WMI and am renewing my search for the perfect window manager once again. Every day I pray I will discover a window manager that will end this search in the same way that Arch ended my seach for the perfect Linux distribution.

I've tried most of the popular window managers now. The tiling ones seem most handy to me, but are generally not quite up to snuff on the features required. I hate the *boxes for some reason. I can use the desktop environments, but get frusterated with them. The Step and WindowMaker based managers just don't seem to cut it for me. Right now my hopes are hanging on two pipe dream projects that may never come into being: E17 and Phrakture's window manager.

I've never used FVWM, but have been reading their web site. It seems a lot more flexible than I used to think it was, and I'm going to try it. I was wondering if there were any loyal FVWM users out there who could tell me their favourite features of this window manager, maybe give me some hints on what is cool to set up and is not turned on by default, and so on.

Thanks,
Dusty

ozar · 2005-06-25 17:47:22

I've been intending to try fvwm again, so look forward to any comments as they gather here.

sweiss · 2005-06-25 18:05:08

FVWM is all scriptable. You might as well write your own WM from scratch if you ask me. Maybe if you can tell us what are the features you're looking for in a window manager we can be more helpful. Maybe help you tailor a WM to your specific needs.

Dusty · 2005-06-25 18:26:15

I want a fully scriptable WM. ;-) It reminds me of litestep... I haven't figured out how to script it yet though, and I can't find much in terms of pre-built themes. I don't really want to build one from scratch.

Maybe I'll try afterstep aagin... it was pretty, but buggy last time I tried it. But I would like some info on FVWM itself... maybe some example fvwm2rcs if there are any.

Dusty

corky · 2005-06-25 18:34:58

I havent used fvwm for a while but there are plenty of good sites to get you started, I just found I spent more time fiddling with the wm than I did with actually using it

http://fvwm.lair.be/

http://www.fvwmwiki.org/cgi/moin.cgi

And theres some nice ready mades here:

http://oceanic.wsisiz.edu.pl/~slabosz/w … ?page_id=9

Hope it helps.

(btw. your certainly not alone on your quest)

lanrat · 2005-06-25 18:50:34

You should start with some ready to use config IMO. FVWM is very configurable but it takes a lot of time to tweak it to your needs. I'm not an FVWM expert but I'd suggest to start with fvwm-crystal package so you can more or less see what can be done.
There are a few FVWM configuration gurus out there. The most known are taviso and ikaro. Lots of examples and solutions are available on the gentoo forums and google of course.

You should expect hours of reading (excellent) FVWM man pages too.

BTW This reminds me the times when nobody had an idea what a wm could be
http://shoutcast.com/sbin/shoutcast-pla … lename.pls

Have fun :-)

Dusty · 2005-06-25 19:31:49

fvwm-crystal seems to depend on the unstable fvwm... any reason not to use unstable? I generally refrain from it, but I guess I'm just playing around right now. ;-)

Dusty

droog · 2005-06-25 19:46:31

In case you miss it here is a module that gives Fvwm tiling frames like wmi and ion here http://www.imonk.com/baboon/FvwmPartition/

Everyone seems to point to sunsites tutorial to get the basics http://www.zensites.net/fvwm/guide/ and of course someone elses well commented fvwm2rc helps in getting the format down.

Pretty much nothing is turned on by default, you need to decide what features you want and load the modules for it, there's a well written man page for each module, so its just figuring out what features you want or need.

I dont usually read faqs but the one on the fvwm page has alot of good info in it.

other than that, i wish you luck

edit
I wouldnt start with something like crystal, it breaks the config up into like 20 different files and makes it a pain in the ass. i would recommend just making a basic config with that sunsites tutorial and going from there. fvwm themes are evil.

mdirolf · 2005-06-25 21:26:18

definitely start with somebody else's config that you like and then tweak it. I can post mine somewhere if you want, let me know.

it isn't very hard to get the hang of how to config, the easiest way to do it is to just look at the configs of other users. The fvwm forums might be a good place to look: http://fvwm.lair.be/

Dusty · 2005-06-25 21:55:17

I'm going through the zensites guide right now. Its been an all-day thing, but I've got the hang of it and see that I can customize this sucker no end. Plus if I really wanted I could make new Modules for it, right? This IS the lightstep clone I've been looking for! haha!

mdirolf and others: If your config is partially commented, I'd love to have a lok at it.

Dusty

droog · 2005-06-25 22:10:21

Nick Fortune wrote a tutorial on making your own modules somewhere, I dont have time to find it right now, but its somewhere in the fvwm forum or gentoo forum.

wickedlester · 2005-06-25 22:19:59

I use fvwm unstable off and on alot. I too am a litestep user in the windows world and this is the closest thing for linux. I haven't used my own config here lately and doubt you would like it anyway. It is more eye candy than usability. I like to use chwombat's themes. There are some scripts on his/her site also. http://chwombat.net/. In my opinion the best place to learn fvwm is from the gentoo forum threads(there are 3 parts)
part 1
part 2
part 3

dtw · 2005-06-25 23:01:24

i got a fvwm-cvs pkg which has the m ost up to date code in it - there is very little commited to their cvs these days

iphitus · 2005-06-26 00:32:21

ion3!

rasat · 2005-06-26 06:37:10

corky wrote:

...I just found I spent more time fiddling with the wm than I did with actually using it

I came to same conclusion, though, I like when able to customized the way you want. One really need to know what to want otherwise get caught into an endless circle of try and error/change.

rasat · 2005-06-26 11:01:47

Here is a new topic: "Arch ended search for distro, what ends the WM search?"
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=13301

Dusty · 2005-06-26 17:04:19

Ok, I've had a pretty good look at the documentation for this beast and have set up my own configuration from scratch. I'm not terribly happy with it, but I see the kind of power I have at my finger tips now.

I haven't figured out how to compile, build, and install FvwmPartition. Any advice on this front (or a package!) would be appreciated. That project is dead, somebody ought to pick it up... maybe I will, though I'd much rather see it in phrakture's pocket.

Now, my summaries/thoughts on Fvwm. People seem to appreciate my opinions on these things, having followed my path from ion to wmi to wmii and back.

First of all, I can't believe I missed this window manager for so long. I remember investigating it a while ago and thinking it was nothing, just a minimalist thing that managed Windows. I didn't know about the Modules or extensible configuration.

Second, this is definately the most configurable window manager I've used. I'm not much of an artist, but I can see that people with GIMP skills could make an extremely fancy looking window manager/desktop environment. The only runner up for configurability is E16 (which I understand is sort of descended from Fvwm). I suspect that E17 will surpass it.

Third, Fvwm is a good WM for Arch Linux users. Why? Two reasons: One, It lays its guts open to you, so its fully configurable, just like our favourite distro. Two, configuration is done completely via text files, and pretty much anything can be configured, just like our favourite distro.

On the other hand, it is not the 'perfect' window manager for Arch users. Its a bit too big, a bit too messy. Its not exactly simple, which is in direct conflict with the Arch philosophy. As perfect WMs go, Fvwm is probably the perfect WM for Gentoo users.

Fvwm doesn't seem to have a lot of pre-existing themes available. There is a section on themes.freshmeat.net, but its not very big. This is a real shame. The thing I loved about litestep was the ability to look at a few screenshots done by graphics geniuses, download the theme, and tweak it for my menu, shortcuts, and wharf. This is possible with Fvwm, IF people would distribute their themes. Rather, it seems Fvwm is used by people who do highly customized work that they don't believe other people would find useful. If there was a themes community like litestep has (used to have?), I think I would be a lot happier.

Fvwm doesn't support translucency out of the box. There is fake translucency (like aterm's root window thing), but not real translucency. There IS a translucency patch to remedy this, but as I understand it, it only works on menus, and not on window decorations or modules, where you'd really like to see it.

One thing that really bugs me is that the taskbar has to take up the entire width of the screen. Apparently this can't be turned off. I haven't used most of the other modules; I suspect that by the time I have configured it all, I won't even have a taskbar. ;-)

Finally, I would like to design an ArchLinux configuration for Fvwm. I'll grab a cool wallpaper from kde-look or art.archlinux and try to build a theme around that. I'm not very good with gimp, but I think with a bit of cut and paste from somebody else' wallpaper I might be able to make something that's cool enough for somebody else to want to touch up. :-D

Dusty

droog · 2005-06-26 21:10:23

To make the taskbar any size you want, load a fvwmbuttons module and make it the size and position you want then swallow the taskbar into it then you can swallow a clock or add buttons and menu and can make it exactly the way and size you want.

I am pretty sure to get the fvwm partitions module going you just move it into your /usr/share/fvwm/modules directory then call it from your fvwm2rc. I'm not positive on this as i haven't used it, but other 2nd party modules are this way.

From what i've seen all the gentoo guys have moved to the fvwm forum and are spurring developement. and the next release will have full translucency, rounded corners and a bunch of other aesthetic changes. In case you missed it (i did) they hijacked the other languages part of the forum for developing new modules.

Why not start a new theming community alot of archers use this and make their own configs and themes, i have a few i could contribute actually alot. I have just moved and will get my computer set up in a day or two then could get a few ready.

dtw · 2005-06-26 22:33:01

ok, dusty - you talked me into to giving it another go - and - if it's back under development - now may be a good time

wickedlester · 2005-06-26 23:02:06

Cool, good to see some interest here in fvwm. I may try to convert some of my litestep themes to fvwm also.

archdaemon · 2005-06-26 23:10:45

Dusty wrote:

...On the other hand, it is not the 'perfect' window manager for Arch users. Its a bit too big, a bit too messy. Its not exactly simple, which is in direct conflict with the Arch philosophy. As perfect WMs go, Fvwm is probably the perfect WM for Gentoo users...

...One thing that really bugs me is that the taskbar has to take up the entire width of the screen. Apparently this can't be turned off. I haven't used most of the other modules; I suspect that by the time I have configured it all, I won't even have a taskbar. ;-)...

I don't know about it being big and messy. The bare wm is quite minimalist and simple. (Well, the config behind even the bare wm isn't simple but that's the nature of the beast.) Basically, it can be anything from an evilwm to something hitting on a Gnome. So the flexibility and choice suits your Gentooers, Archers, Slackers.

As far as the taskbar, that's more of a nod to 'other interfaces' and is one of the weaker modules - doesn't really fit with fvwm. Along the buttons idea, you can do any number of things with buttons. For a bare taskbar-type-thing, FvwmIconMan is far superior and, used properly, even FvwmIconBox can be cool. So you may well be right about ditching the taskbar.

It is *the* ugliest wm and one of the *least* usable out of the box. But it's an 'outside the box' wm. What's the most beautiful UI you had? What's the most powerful UI you had? Were they the same? With fvwm you can get it and more in one.

The only thing against fvwm - and it's big - is that it is *not* for people who don't want to tweak text configs. Though, granted, maybe you can do all sorts of things with Themes. But that strikes me as going against the point of fvwm. Fvwm is *my* window manager. Using somebody else's theme is like using somebody else's toothbrush. If I use a pre-done theme, I might as well use some other pre-done window manager. Fvwm is kind of a tinkertoy/erector set window manager. A kit for UI construction even if you're not an X Windows programmer.

Um. Sorry.

IconMan/Box. Yeah. My suggestion.

droog · 2005-06-26 23:27:41

archdaemon wrote:

IconMan/Box. Yeah. My suggestion.

Last i read the fvwm developers recommended not using either of those, but using an fvwmbuttons swallowing the fvwmtaskbar. they said they were outdated and had some problems. not sure what though.

edit:
I understand what you're saying about themes, I feel the same way, but thats the way i feel and shouldnt be imposed on people that dont have the time or want to make their own. I think themes in general would be a good idea for people that want to set up their config the way they want it, but don't want to spend the time dealing with the graphic aspect.

Dusty · 2005-06-27 00:03:53

Ok... when I iconify a window in my current setup, it becomes a neat little icon on the 'desktop' that I can drag around. I like this very much.

Problem is, I can't figure out how to configure where on the desktop the icons go by default. What's the magic command to set this? :-D

Dusty

droog · 2005-06-27 00:43:36

You would have to make an fvwmiconbox to be able to make them iconify to a certain spot. I'll try to find where i read that iconman/iconbox was outdated . here are some examples someone made http://fvwm.lair.be/viewtopic.php?t=178

Dusty · 2005-06-27 00:58:01

Ok, I'll investigate the iconbox. I tired enabling it and it wasn't iconifying to it, so I must have missed a specific config somewhere. Also, I kind of wanted it to be able to iconify to a specific place on the desktop, and then still by drag-around-able so I *could* move them if I wanted.

Now, my next question... can I possibly invoke an arbitrary action in FvwmButtons when the mouse moves over the button (ie: it is activated) as well as, or instead of when it is clicked?

I did browse through the man page for this and it didn't seem possible..

Thanks again,
Dusty

Arch Linux

#1 2005-06-25 17:12:56

Dear FVWM users

#2 2005-06-25 17:47:22

Re: Dear FVWM users

#3 2005-06-25 18:05:08

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