Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

schuay · 2012-01-17 18:53:11

Awebb wrote:

Leonid.I wrote:
I'm russian too and didn't find it troubling…
You're the first one in this thread claiming to be russian. If you're russian too, even if nobody else is, then I suddenly understand the russian concept of net and gross. :-D

check out post #13

From: Russian Federation
Registered: 2011-03-05
Posts: 365

student975 · 2012-01-17 19:33:21

Leonid.I wrote:

Just use your brain...

Let's discuss pacman rather discussion participants, please.

stqn · 2012-01-17 23:13:14

I think something like "Disk usage delta" would be more appropriate. Based on what I read here http://www.thefreedictionary.com/net I don't think the use of "net" is really correct, and there's also the confusion with "internet".

student975 · 2012-01-17 23:20:21

I have suggested "Installed Size Delta" because we already have "Installed Size" term in "Total Installed Size" form one row above. Why do we need to create new entity?

Last edited by student975 (2012-01-17 23:40:21)

Earnestly · 2012-01-17 23:40:18

Welcome to English, where we have a dozen different meanings for the same word. Isn't it lovely!

There is potential to mimic the Element's naming conventions. Use a dead language (Latin) and avoid offending others.

Edit: To be quite frank you could just leave it as "Total Upgrade Size" if "Net" causes much confusion. This makes a lot more sense than using the mathematics "Delta" in my opinion.

Last edited by Earnestly (2012-01-17 23:45:54)

student975 · 2012-01-17 23:47:36

Kaustic wrote:

Welcome to English

Are there any reason to think English is the only language with this property?

Technical texts contain concrete word-combinations - the same at the same context. Will it be appropriate to say "curved animal" meaning "Arch linux"? Or replace "pacman" with "that fine tricky piece of software I live most of all except for jazz"? Terms are terms, arn't they?

Earnestly · 2012-01-17 23:54:09

Forum::Thread < Offtopic
do

Lost in translation

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wo … an_English for an example of what I mean.
Edit: This never helps either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend

end

Last edited by Earnestly (2012-01-18 00:11:25)

student975 · 2012-01-18 00:10:56

Kaustic wrote:

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wo … an_English for an example of what I mean.

Well, my native language has few times more.. Are these facts related to the thread context? Sorry, I don't see any relation

At any case now I know the meaning of that smart pacman message and, this way, retract all questions and arguments

Jristz · 2012-01-18 01:27:49

In spanish use
"Cambio en la red" a complete mistranslation thar in english look "Change in the net (net for web and sites)" this show the unacurate use of the term in non-english languages
a acurate translation maintain the netto/net are:
"Diferencia total neta", "Cambio neto" (net change)
a traslation throw away the net work may are:
"Diferencia de tamaños" (Size difference), "Total a actualizar" (Total to upgrade)

Awebb · 2012-01-18 08:10:19

The German translation is Reine Größe des Upgrades: 0,00 MiB. Now that I know what it means, I can't judge whether it is easy to grasp or not. Cognition is a beast.

kokoko3k · 2012-01-18 09:03:30

Italian translation says:
"Dimensione dell'aggiornamento di rete: 1,20 MiB"
In english,it means: "netWORK update size: 1,20MiB"

It is clearly wrong, who have i to contact to correct?

karol · 2012-01-18 09:26:53

kokoko3k wrote:

It is clearly wrong, who have i to contact to correct?

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 3#p1042413

Edit: Search for 'net' in the Italian translation: https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/ar … l/it/view/ (I don't know how to link directly to the search result)

Last edited by karol (2012-01-18 09:30:42)

Awebb · 2012-01-18 11:08:22

That either shows that "net" isn't as obvious as it seems or half of the translators don't look at stuff they translate. The net is gross sometimes.

kiLLroy_ow · 2012-01-27 13:37:52

student975 wrote:

I have suggested "Installed Size Delta" because we already have "Installed Size" term in "Total Installed Size" form one row above. Why do we need to create new entity?

I would vote for the use of "delta". This is just because the term "delta" in the context of package management / upgrading is already defined. I guess many people know it from "delta RPMs". These rpm packages are smaller because they only contain the changes from the previous versions. So "delta" - in this context - is not really mathematically predefined but instead predefined in the linux world.

Earnestly · 2012-01-27 13:43:36

The only time I've ever seen delta is within physics equations ( Δ ) and the NATO phonetic alphabet.

Dictionary.com

noun
1. the fourth letter of the greek alphabet (Δ, δ).
2. the consonant sound represented by this letter.
3. the fourth in a series of items.
4. anything triangular, like the Greek capital delta (Δ).
5. Mathematics. an incremental change in a variable, as Δ or δ.

So it doesn't even make sense from a Mathematical point of view.

But I'm not all problems, thus, in it's place I'd suggest "Total Upgrade Size" if translations of net are too vague.

Last edited by Earnestly (2012-01-27 13:45:07)

kiLLroy_ow · 2012-01-27 14:31:27

Kaustic wrote:

The only time I've ever seen delta is within physics equations ( Δ ) and the NATO phonetic alphabet.

Well.. I really meant "delta" not the symbol "Δ"

Google "delta rpm" and you get about 15.000.000 results

masteryod · 2012-01-27 14:55:56

"delta" in this case is really bad idea. As this thread shows, people have problems with understanding "net/netto" term, do you really think that mathematical delta is so much better?

Earnestly · 2012-01-27 15:08:58

Could anyone at least explain why Total Upgrade Size: is a bad/good idea? Seems people are ignoring it as an option and only reading the first few lines of my posts (seemingly fixated on delta).

kiLLroy_ow · 2012-01-27 15:10:07

masteryod wrote:

"delta" in this case is really bad idea. As this thread shows, people have problems with understanding "net/netto" term, do you really think that mathematical delta is so much better?

[IMHO]
I think this thread has become kinda "offtopic". So it does not really matter since all this is just a matter of personal opinions from very few people using pacman. Maybe a feature request would change something but does it really matter? Even the few people here (including myself) are not able to vote for one replacement of the "net" term.
[/IMHO]

But to make it clear now. I do not mean the mathematical delta. I just mean the word "delta". I hope this is clear now as I tried to make it clear in my previous posts. For the reason why I favor using the term "delta" see $my_previous_posts.

Last edited by kiLLroy_ow (2012-01-27 15:17:42)

alphaniner · 2012-01-27 15:12:35

Delta would have been more immediately clear to me, actually. Though that's probably because in common parlance I just read it as 'change':

Total Download Size:    0.14 MiB
Total Installed Size:   1.09 MiB
Change:                -0.02 MiB

Last edited by alphaniner (2012-01-27 15:15:05)

Earnestly · 2012-01-27 15:20:58

Ha, "Change:" isn't half bad, it doesn't seem too informative though.

Final Change:
Total Change in size:

I don't know. "Change" might be a bit too simple.
Leaving it up to others for now.

Edit: If you want to know why "delta" isn't a good idea, look it up in any English dictionary.

Last edited by Earnestly (2012-01-27 15:24:45)

masteryod · 2012-01-27 15:23:11

Yeah I know these are all our opinions but this is mine: delta as a word is difficult (for example there is no translation for this in polish and word "delta" have other meaning, there is mathematical "delta" as everywhere but I don't think a lot of users know this and will understand). English dictionary is not very helpful here also (search for it in english dictionary and/or wiki and try to imagine a translator of some exotic language that Arch supports struggling with this word). Third: delta packages are not the same as net/netto upgrade size.

alphaniner · 2012-01-27 15:28:58

Kaustic wrote:

"Change:" isn't half bad, it doesn't seem too informative though.

Agreed. And while I assumed the concept was universal (part of the Systeme Internationale), masteryod's post makes it clear I was wrong.

Kaustic wrote:

Could anyone at least explain why Total Upgrade Size: is a bad/good idea?

Because it's not the total. The total upgrade size is the size of all the files that were just written, upgrades and new files included. The net/delta/whatever is the difference between that and everything that's not around any more: files that were replaced or removed.

Last edited by alphaniner (2012-01-27 15:49:21)

kiLLroy_ow · 2012-01-27 15:37:12

Ah damn now I got the problem.

In my first post... what I wanted to vote for was "Installed Size Delta" or "Delta Installed Size". So yes, I vote for the use of "delta" but I did not mean only "delta" like:

Total Download Size:    0.14 MiB
Total Installed Size:   1.09 MiB
Delta:                 -0.02 MiB

instead I meant something like:

Total Download Size:    0.14 MiB
Total Installed Size:   1.09 MiB
Delta Installed Size:  -0.02 MiB

So the "Total" is nice above the "Delta" and "Installed Size" is re-used. Look at the output now. Does it not look good to you?

I really think many would understand this term and it fits in the already given output.

Sorry for the confusion. Maybe I should have written this in the first place.

edit:
I agree that "Total Upgrade Size:" is bad because it is not total. I think "Change:" is too unspecific, too. Just like "Delta:". "change" may be a common word but "change" alone is not good and something like "Change Installed Size" is incorrect english

Last edited by kiLLroy_ow (2012-01-27 15:51:05)

alphaniner · 2012-01-27 15:47:30

That would work for me too, but I think the verdict is that delta is even more confusing and less internationally friendly than net.

Last edited by alphaniner (2012-01-27 15:47:53)

Arch Linux

#26 2012-01-17 18:53:11

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

#27 2012-01-17 19:33:21

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

#28 2012-01-17 23:13:14

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

#29 2012-01-17 23:20:21

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

#30 2012-01-17 23:40:18

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

#31 2012-01-17 23:47:36

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

#32 2012-01-17 23:54:09

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#33 2012-01-18 00:10:56

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#34 2012-01-18 01:27:49

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#35 2012-01-18 08:10:19

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#36 2012-01-18 09:03:30

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#37 2012-01-18 09:26:53

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#38 2012-01-18 11:08:22

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#39 2012-01-27 13:37:52

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#40 2012-01-27 13:43:36

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#41 2012-01-27 14:31:27

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#42 2012-01-27 14:55:56

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#43 2012-01-27 15:08:58

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#44 2012-01-27 15:10:07

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#45 2012-01-27 15:12:35

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#46 2012-01-27 15:20:58

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#47 2012-01-27 15:23:11

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

#48 2012-01-27 15:28:58

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#49 2012-01-27 15:37:12

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

#50 2012-01-27 15:47:30

Re: Net Upgrade Size - what is this?

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