Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

karol · 2012-02-14 17:13:20

The recent libpng and pcre rebuilds resulted in a few threads and bug reports being created that show some people don't understand their systems even on a pretty basic level. Some problems may have resulted from OP's systems being not fully updated, others from relying on AUR packages or packages from unofficial repos w/o understanding how is their maintenance different from the ones from the official repos.

wonder beat me to it with his blog post: http://archlinux.me/wonder/2012/02/13/h … ur-system/ but I'm afraid he's preaching to the choir.
What can we do to help users become more proficient in Arch Way?

Psykorgasm · 2012-02-14 17:21:06

karol wrote:

What can we do to help users become more proficient in Arch Way?

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Maybe not the best saying to this problem, but you get the point.

karol · 2012-02-14 17:37:35

Maybe we should add some notes on linux-ck wiki page, on the unoffiicial repos page and on the AUR page?
Some explanation how packages work together and what rebuilds are seem to be needed.

Gusar · 2012-02-14 17:42:40

Or how about we simply require people to learn by themselves. The hard way, if necessary. Because if you start with a bit of hand holding, over time you'll just need to do more and more and more of it.

The extreme version of the above: If you try to make things idiot-proof, all you do is create bigger idiots.

jasonwryan · 2012-02-14 18:40:21

Gusar wrote:

Or how about we simply require people to learn by themselves. The hard way, if necessary. Because if you start with a bit of hand holding, over time you'll just need to do more and more and more of it.
The extreme version of the above: If you try to make things idiot-proof, all you do is create bigger idiots.

QFT. The signal to noise here has dipped appreciably over the last year. I think a little less spoonfeeding would be in the community's long term interests...

Roken · 2012-02-14 20:45:58

I agree with both Karol and Gusar, though it's not an either or thing, it has to be both. It's all well and good reducing the level of forum hand holding, but the information has to be there to be found.

Last edited by Roken (2012-02-14 20:46:20)

karol · 2012-02-14 21:30:31

I don't have any ideas apart from adding an explanation why 'pacman -Syu' is The Right Way and a reminder that Arch maintainers take care of the official repos only so issues with all the other packages should be directed to these packages' maintainers - whether it's an unofficial repo or an AUR package.

I'm using nosr-git and a couple days ago I got a pcre-related error when I tried to run it. I immediately recalled the pcre rebuild [of the packages from the repos] and I rebuilt the nosr package myself.
How to share this knowledge (obviously has to be generalized) and where to put it? In the AUR wiki article? pacman? The official repos?

Some things may not be obvious, like the 'PLEASE ENTER SUMMARY' part of a new bug report's title: https://bugs.archlinux.org/newtask?proj … ER+SUMMARY
I'm not sure if this form is designed in a good way, I think it is possible to overlook / misunderstand the summary, it's not even obvious it's a text field you can (and should) edit.
As a result we get FS#28362 [deluge] PLEASE ENTER SUMMARY and a couple similar bug reports (their summaries got fixed already). Previously we got '[packagename]' w/o any summary ...
Unfortunately upstream for our bugtracker is dead so I don't expect any significant changes in the design.

imatechguy · 2012-02-14 22:17:18

I'm still pretty new to Arch, only been using it for 2 yrs now, and one of the biggest reasons I made the jump was that I would be required to actually use and understand my system and the OS better than with the other "newb friendly" disto's. I like that I'm expected to do a little research before throwing up a plea for help on the forums. Really most people are able to find out the answer/solution to issues they have if they just spend a little time looking around; and even when they can't figure it out the answer is usually still out there it's just not worded in way they understand.

Currently users are already directed to review the news and announce mailing list (links embedded) prior to system upgrade with a note tag before the first upgrade in the Beginners Guide. Between that and the later warning tag about system updates that link to Misfit138's thread in the Newbie Corner titled "PLEASE READ BEFORE UPGRADING" I think the obligation for user notification has been met.

One additional option might be an email blast when something big, like the libpng and pcre rebuilds, is happening but that assumes forum users have allowed admin emails and that they read them so that's probably not going to be any more effective than the currently available information sources.

What might get more exposure, if it's even possible is a blurb in pacman on upgrade, kind of like the notification we get now that pacman has to be upgraded before the rest of the system can be.

Regardless of the approach taken at some point the end user has to take responsibility for their choice in distro and even package source if they go outside of the Official repos. If they can't keep their system running or find it overly difficult to keep up with then this probably isn't the right distro for them. It's not mean or disrespectful to say so, it's just a fact and I fully realize that at some point I may be faced with such a decision.

karol · 2012-02-14 22:22:09

imatechguy wrote:

What might get more exposure, if it's even possible is a blurb in pacman on upgrade, kind of like the notification we get now that pacman has to be upgraded before the rest of the system can be.

This notification might disappear: http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/ … 15123.html

ngoonee · 2012-02-15 01:18:31

It would help if more experienced forum members don't take the easy way out and simply tell them "run -Syu" or "do -Sd pacman" or something like that. Its okay to ignore newbie questions if you don't want to take the time to answer them 'correctly' (by linking to the wiki or instructing them to RTFM).

Mr.Elendig · 2012-02-15 15:50:03

Hitting people hard over the head with a cluebat of smiting +5 infused with https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=57205 seems to work on irc most of the time.

But anyway, arch has gotten to large and too "mainstream" to get a low S/N ratio back. It is the natural development of communities, noise increases non-linear with size.

Arch Linux

#1 2012-02-14 17:13:20

Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#2 2012-02-14 17:21:06

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#3 2012-02-14 17:37:35

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#4 2012-02-14 17:42:40

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#5 2012-02-14 18:40:21

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#6 2012-02-14 20:45:58

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#7 2012-02-14 21:30:31

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#8 2012-02-14 22:17:18

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#9 2012-02-14 22:22:09

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#10 2012-02-15 01:18:31

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

#11 2012-02-15 15:50:03

Re: Archers, partial upgrades and unofficial packages

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