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#1 2012-04-05 17:25:03

dhave
Arch Linux f@h Team Member
From: Outside the matrix.
Registered: 2005-05-15
Posts: 1,110

Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

Apparently there's a policy that posts regarding Archbang, Bridge Linux and other "installation-assisted" Arch distros will be moved to that purgatory of forum sections known as "Off Topic".

I'm wondering if a new forum section could be established to accommodate discussion of these distros.

For example, I think it's helpful for Arch users to know that there are ways to achieve a quick and painless Arch installation if you don't have time to go through the config yourself. I've been using Arch for seven years and have installed it many times, but recently I needed to install Arch in a hurry. Bridge Linux let me do just that, and I suspect Archbang would have, as well.

I think the Arch forum mods are trying to keep the forum focused on the essential Arch experience of installing from scratch, editing config files, etc. That's fine, but I suggest that a section be opened for installation-assisted Arch distros to accommodate Archbang, Bridge and other distros that yield an Arch system.

People who use these "installation-assisted" distros are running full-fledged Arch Linux, not another distro derived from Arch.

As things stand, it's almost as if you shouldn't expect support on the Arch forum if your spouse or a friend installed your system for you!

Thanks.

Last edited by dhave (2012-04-05 17:26:08)


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#2 2012-04-05 17:45:39

lifeafter2am
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Posts: 1,325
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Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

Sorry, I agree with the policy. Then again, I was one of the people back in the original days of Gentoo that fought like hell against Stage 3 installs. wink

Seriously though, I can get an Arch install done and up and running in 5-10 minutes flat. How much quicker does it need to be? More on-topic, I don't think we should have to support people who do things the quick way and don't take the time to really work on their systems. One of the main points of Arch is to get your hands "dirty" so to speak, if you are unwilling to do that, quite frankly I am unwilling to help you.

One of the reasons I love Arch so much is that it doesn't hand-hold; and that is something that I don't think should change.

Just my .02. smile


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#3 2012-04-05 18:00:38

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,431

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

dhave wrote:

I'm wondering if a new forum section could be established to accommodate discussion of these distros.

Why not use the forums / MLs provided by these distros?

dhave wrote:

For example, I think it's helpful for Arch users to know that there are ways to achieve a quick and painless Arch installation.

There's a wiki page, so it's not like the info is hidden or forbidden: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ar … s_(Active)

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#4 2012-04-05 18:09:28

Psykorgasm
Member
From: England, UK
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 158

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

lifeafter2am wrote:

One of the main points of Arch is to get your hands "dirty" so to speak, if you are unwilling to do that, quite frankly I am unwilling to help you.

+1

They should have and use their own forums for very basic help and installation at least  imho. Sure they use Arch but why should people here wipe the ass of people that take the easy way (out of laziness) and end up stuck?
The distro providing the auto-install should be wiping their behind for creating the problem in the first place.

As for general support and stuff I'm sure there are a fair few auto-installed-arch distro users here that get and give information and help.

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#5 2012-04-05 18:25:05

drcouzelis
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From: Connecticut, USA
Registered: 2009-11-09
Posts: 3,497
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Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

There already is a section for Arch-derived distributions: Community Contributions. An example of this can be seen in the very successful thread for ArchBang.

I assume this thread is in response to your recent post about Bridge Linux. That thread could concievably be fine for the Community Contributions section, but I do think it would be a little strange if you weren't the author.

As for "help" questions: if help is needed for Arch Linux or something that is used in Arch Linux, then it could be posted to the Arch Linux forums. If it's a question that's specific to a derivitive of Arch Linux, then it should be asked in the forum for the derivitive.

Alternatively, if you just want to talk about great software that you've found then you could usa an Arch Linux blog at archlinux.me. big_smile

Last edited by drcouzelis (2012-04-05 18:26:34)

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#6 2012-04-05 18:29:32

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,431

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

drcouzelis wrote:

There already is a section for Arch-derived distributions: Community Contributions. An example of this can be seen in the very successful thread for ArchBang.

That thread has been closed.

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#7 2012-04-05 18:34:01

alphaniner
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From: Ancapistan
Registered: 2010-07-12
Posts: 2,728

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

dhave wrote:

People who use these "installation-assisted" distros are running full-fledged Arch Linux, not another distro derived from Arch.

As things stand, it's almost as if you shouldn't expect support on the Arch forum if your spouse or a friend installed your system for you!

On the topic of installation-assisted distros, I generally agree with one exception.  If you're asking about something that you would have learned had you installed Arch traditionally (ie something covered in the Official Installtion Guide or the Beginner's Guide), then you shouldn't expect less than a swift-kick-in-the-STDOUT.

As for spouse- or friend-installed systems, your analysis seems appropriate to me.  If you didn't (or more appropriately, can't) install Arch, then you probably shouldn't be administering it (in distinct contrast to using it).

The Arch Way wrote:

Arch Linux targets and accommodates competent GNU/Linux users...


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#8 2012-04-05 18:48:39

drcouzelis
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From: Connecticut, USA
Registered: 2009-11-09
Posts: 3,497
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Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

karol wrote:
drcouzelis wrote:

There already is a section for Arch-derived distributions: Community Contributions. An example of this can be seen in the very successful thread for ArchBang.

That thread has been closed.

Well... yeah, after it was successful, after many help-questions were asked and responded to, and after an ArchBang developer requested it.

I responded to the question I assume dhave meant to ask, which is "Why did my thread announcing Bridge Linux (which was not made my me) get moved to Off-Topic?"

As for any question on the Arch Linux forums of the format "HALP!! I have a problem in a Linux distribution that is NOT ARCH LINUX", then, of course, the thread should be closed, the user should be banned, and their computer should be executed and launched (not dropped) out a window. Please note that I should not be allowed to be an Arch Linux forum moderator ever.

alphaniner wrote:

then you shouldn't expect less than a swift-kick-in-the-STDOUT.

I have a new favorite phrase.

Last edited by drcouzelis (2012-04-05 18:51:09)

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#9 2012-04-05 19:11:34

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 19,073
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Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

drcouzelis wrote:

As for any question on the Arch Linux forums of the format "HALP!! I have a problem in a Linux distribution that is NOT ARCH LINUX", then, of course, the thread should be closed, the user should be banned, and their computer should be executed and launched (not dropped) out a window. Please note that I should not be allowed to be an Arch Linux forum moderator ever.

I don't know: on the strength of that statement, you'd get my vote... smile


On topic: the Arch community by-and-large is very good at ensuring these boards have a tolerable signal to noise ratio but that takes quite a lot of work and, as the community continues to swell, the amount of work increases at least proportionally. Introducing more noise--which such a forum would IMO be--would not be helpful.

I'm a firm supporter of the view already expressed here: if, with the excellent documentation provided, you have trouble installing Arch, then you aren't ready.

As for the "Urgent!" posters: if you are in a hurry, then either wait until you have time, or just install the minimum (ie., no X) to get yourself up and running and deal with the rest later. It's a computer, FFS, not a life-support machine.


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#10 2012-04-05 19:14:42

lifeafter2am
Member
From: .........
Registered: 2009-06-10
Posts: 1,325
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Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

jasonwryan wrote:

It's a computer, FFS, not a life-support machine.

And if it is, then you shouldn't be rushing to put something on it you don't have time to manage! wink


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#11 2012-04-05 20:45:38

jelly
Trusted User (TU)
From: /dev/null
Registered: 2008-06-10
Posts: 711

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

dhave wrote:

Apparently there's a policy that posts regarding Archbang, Bridge Linux and other "installation-assisted" Arch distros will be moved to that purgatory of forum sections known as "Off Topic".

I'm wondering if a new forum section could be established to accommodate discussion of these distros.

For example, I think it's helpful for Arch users to know that there are ways to achieve a quick and painless Arch installation if you don't have time to go through the config yourself. I've been using Arch for seven years and have installed it many times, but recently I needed to install Arch in a hurry. Bridge Linux let me do just that, and I suspect Archbang would have, as well.

I think the Arch forum mods are trying to keep the forum focused on the essential Arch experience of installing from scratch, editing config files, etc. That's fine, but I suggest that a section be opened for installation-assisted Arch distros to accommodate Archbang, Bridge and other distros that yield an Arch system.

People who use these "installation-assisted" distros are running full-fledged Arch Linux, not another distro derived from Arch.

As things stand, it's almost as if you shouldn't expect support on the Arch forum if your spouse or a friend installed your system for you!

Thanks.

I rather have a strict line between archlinux and derived distro's, just to avoid confusion. I have seen enough people using the ArchBang or whatever installer in #archlinux and ask for help, since i don't know what tools these arch-derives use i can't help them especially since some of them install weird stuff.
But that's just my opinion wink

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#12 2012-04-05 21:59:01

ethail
Member
From: Spain
Registered: 2011-02-10
Posts: 225

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

jasonwryan wrote:

It's a computer, FFS, not a life-support machine.

Life-support machines tend to be computers, just saying


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#13 2012-04-05 22:02:06

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 19,073
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Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

ethail wrote:
jasonwryan wrote:

It's a computer, FFS, not a life-support machine.

Life-support machines tend to be computers, just saying

Yes. They run Debian stable though... smile


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#14 2012-04-06 02:51:00

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,416
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Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

The reason why non-Arch installs are not supported is that these "easy install" versions can do stupid things like adding an update shortcut that does "packer -Syffuu".   (Seriously, one of those does that....).

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#15 2012-04-06 06:52:17

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 13,142

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

As one of the moderators, allow me to chime in here.  First off:

dhave:  It was good trading emails with you earlier this week.  After we communicated, I saw that my colleague moved your post to off-topic.  Sorry, I did not have the opportunity to let them know you and I had communicated.  Regardless, off topic really is not purgatory -- that would be "Topics Going Nowhere" (Actually, I suppose that would be limbo in Dante's view)  The other side of Styx would be "Dustbin".  Some of the best discussions occur in off-topic smile

In general, I am pretty easy going and try not to interfere with healthy discussion.  We are, after all, a community.  Not everything needs to be Arch centric.  I am also fairly tolerant of questions that have clearly been asked and answered before; sometimes because new users don't know what they don't know.  I don't mind doing some hand holding.  Sadly, some folks never get with the program sad

Jason, Allan : good to see you both.  Hope you are having a good autumn down there.

As to other distributions, here is the thing.  These are the Arch Linux forums.  People who are researching problems here depend on these forums as a dedicated Arch resource.  The moderator team works to keep these forums on topic and prevent "contamination" from distributions that handle things differently than Arch and may cause confusion or may be plain old wrong with respect to Arch. 

As such, a friendly discussion about Bridge Linux is harmless; whereas questions about Archbang (a fine distribution) on the Arch forums can be a direct cause of misinformation that creates problems for the users of both distributions.

Last edited by ewaller (2012-04-06 06:53:09)


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#16 2012-04-07 20:35:24

dhave
Arch Linux f@h Team Member
From: Outside the matrix.
Registered: 2005-05-15
Posts: 1,110

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

Hi, all,

Well, I see your point(s). I still think it's good for Arch users to be aware that there are ways to arrive at a quick-and-dirty Arch installation that don't involve manual configuration. No *real* Arch user is adverse to doing manual configuration; I know that and feel that way, too. But there are times when you have to expedite and even compromise. That was my situation earlier this week when I needed to get Arch on a new machine in a big hurry and didn't even have time to refer to my existing installation as a reminder. In the past, I used to install Arch much more often, so the details of the installation procedure were fresher in my mind. Now I install maybe once a year or so, and my middle-aged mind has trouble hanging on to the installation details. I do well to remember the names of my wife and kids. I do well to remember my *own* name.

Anyway, deep down inside I must still be a true Arch loyalist, because I couldn't stand the thought of not having installed Arch on this new machine in such a way as to take advantage of UEFI booting and GPT formatting of the SSD. So, yesterday I did it all over -- the hard way -- even though a UEFI+GPT+GRUB2 installation is still a bear on Arch, I think.

In that regard, I've told the folks in the Archbang and Bridge Linux camps that if any of them comes up with a pre-set installation sequence that handles UEFI+GPT+GRUB2, I'll gladly use that rather than try to wade through the wiki and various forum posts again. Either that particular installation situation is just plain confusing or I've dropped a few dozen IQ points in the past couple of years.

Last edited by dhave (2012-04-07 20:36:12)


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#17 2012-04-17 10:48:20

the.ridikulus.rat
Member
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 2011-10-04
Posts: 765

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

dhave wrote:

In that regard, I've told the folks in the Archbang and Bridge Linux camps that if any of them comes up with a pre-set installation sequence that handles UEFI+GPT+GRUB2, I'll gladly use that rather than try to wade through the wiki and various forum posts again. Either that particular installation situation is just plain confusing or I've dropped a few dozen IQ points in the past couple of years.

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=136833
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 9#p1083439

Last edited by the.ridikulus.rat (2012-04-17 10:49:11)

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#18 2012-04-17 17:23:42

dhave
Arch Linux f@h Team Member
From: Outside the matrix.
Registered: 2005-05-15
Posts: 1,110

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

the.ridikulus.rat wrote:
dhave wrote:

In that regard, I've told the folks in the Archbang and Bridge Linux camps that if any of them comes up with a pre-set installation sequence that handles UEFI+GPT+GRUB2, I'll gladly use that rather than try to wade through the wiki and various forum posts again. Either that particular installation situation is just plain confusing or I've dropped a few dozen IQ points in the past couple of years.

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=136833
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 9#p1083439

That's very interesting news. I'm looking forward to watching this develop. There'll be a bootloader built in to the kernel, if I understood correctly, right?

Last edited by dhave (2012-04-17 17:24:09)


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#19 2012-04-17 17:37:27

the.ridikulus.rat
Member
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 2011-10-04
Posts: 765

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

dhave wrote:
the.ridikulus.rat wrote:
dhave wrote:

In that regard, I've told the folks in the Archbang and Bridge Linux camps that if any of them comes up with a pre-set installation sequence that handles UEFI+GPT+GRUB2, I'll gladly use that rather than try to wade through the wiki and various forum posts again. Either that particular installation situation is just plain confusing or I've dropped a few dozen IQ points in the past couple of years.

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=136833
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 9#p1083439

That's very interesting news. I'm looking forward to watching this develop. There'll be a bootloader built in to the kernel, if I understood correctly, right?

Develop! Its already working. Read the whole thread and all the external links that thread links to.

EDIT: And I might implement this in Archboot once rEFInd-x86_64 https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=57632 is moved to [extra] .

Last edited by the.ridikulus.rat (2012-04-17 18:13:58)

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#20 2012-04-17 17:53:25

dhave
Arch Linux f@h Team Member
From: Outside the matrix.
Registered: 2005-05-15
Posts: 1,110

Re: Forum section for Arch-derived and "installation-assisted" distros?

the.ridikulus.rat wrote:
dhave wrote:

That's very interesting news. I'm looking forward to watching this develop. There'll be a bootloader built in to the kernel, if I understood correctly, right?

Develop! Its already working. Read the whole thread and all the external links that thread links to.

EDIT: And I might implement this in Archboot once rEFInd-x86_64 https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=57632 comes into [extra] .


From reading the thread, I thought it was still in testing.

Yes, please do implement it in Archboot. I think there's a tremendous need for these newer technologies to be integrated into the Arch installation process. And I don't mean there should be a lot of handholding or lower the bar or whatever. I'd just like the UEFI installation routine to be supported to the same degree that legacy BIOS has been.


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