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#1 2014-11-24 17:28:11

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Handling AUR and unofficial packages

Hello,
There were simplifications along Arch lifetime (see pacstrap, genfstab, arch-chroot), wouldn't be a point where AUR will have some regard too?

During the Arch learning curve, a newcomer will face certain potential difficulties to install packages that aren't from official repository. But at some point the newcomer will discover that some package is not (yet) from official repository, so (s)he'll try to install (some time exctracting deb or rpm, some time compling and some reach the AUR packages). I do justify that there no schools to teach the right way, most of us started by empiric learning, many won't read wikis nor opening web site pages.
Then by the time we started to develop some skill, we'll look at more details and informations. If one is not like this is a purist.

Probably wikis telling that there's the options to install a certain package from AUR. I haven't see the explanations or pointer how to install these packages, in the wiki. I admit that I may be wrong, cause I didn't read all wikis, but I'd tell I'm frequent reader.

So what about a script to

  1. warn the user: "this is potentially harmful, check for consistency"

  2. download PKGBUILD

  3. makepkg

  4. pacman -U package

Probably there are such scripts around, but none is candidate to the official repositories. Any particular feeling about it ?


do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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#2 2014-11-24 17:30:26

jasonwryan
Anarchist
From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 30,424
Website

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

There is an AUR page on the wiki that provides exactly this information...

I don't see how another AUR helper is going to make this situation any better.


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#3 2014-11-24 17:44:24

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 29,449
Website

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

I'm really confused about this post.  You claim the target audience are those who would not read a wiki page.  If one would refuse to read a clearly written wiki page they really shouldn't be using archlinux.  Period.

Then you suggest a script.  But when would this script run?  Even if this script was put in the official repositories, how would a user who never reads the wiki know to install your script?  How would they know when to run it?  I've read this post and I have no idea when this script would run.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#4 2014-11-24 17:47:32

oliver
Member
Registered: 2007-12-12
Posts: 448

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

TheSaint wrote:

Probably there are such scripts around, but none is candidate to the official repositories. Any particular feeling about it ?

I would like it if cower were promoted to the official repo.  It feels a bit catch-22 that you need to use an AUR pkg to get an AUR pkg helper.

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#5 2014-11-24 17:54:14

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 29,449
Website

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

I'd say if one can't figure out how to install even one aur package without a helper, then they definitely shouldn't use any helper - even cower.  AUR helpers should be an aid in automating steps that the user understands, not a crutch to allow them to not understand.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#6 2014-11-24 17:55:36

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

OK, the official method is makepkg and the steps are as above (except point a smile )
It's my impression that ABS it the elected design, some regression still anchor Arch as developer distro. Pacman is an enviable tool and its easy usage is best, that's is the newcomer attraction to Arch.

Even AUR helper are a dog-eating-the-tail, for a new user, thinking "how I install AUR package from AUR". Normally because they don't start reading wikis. You may see NC subforum what kind of question are posed.

What all of this means, a proposal for an AUR installation tool.
Just to see the Archer's pacman -Qm and their method of installation, to judge what are the community preferences.

A bit of OT. Why makepkg compress the package that pacman unpack, less then a second later?


do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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#7 2014-11-24 17:57:25

jasonwryan
Anarchist
From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 30,424
Website

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

AUR entry on the wiki wrote:

Warning: There is not and will never be an official mechanism for installing build material from the AUR. All AUR users should be familiar with the build process.


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#8 2014-11-24 18:03:02

Scimmia
Fellow
Registered: 2012-09-01
Posts: 11,466

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

TheSaint wrote:

Even AUR helper are a dog-eating-the-tail, for a new user, thinking "how I install AUR package from AUR". Normally because they don't start reading wikis. You may see NC subforum what kind of question are posed.

If there's something they don't understand, the wiki should be the second stop (man pages being the first). I mean really, where else would they go? This is Arch after all, users are expected to have some knowledge of how a Linux system works.

TheSaint wrote:

A bit of OT. Why makepkg compress the package that pacman unpack, less then a second later?

You can set that in makepkg.conf.

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#9 2014-11-24 18:07:08

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

Trilby wrote:

Even if this script was put in the official repositories, how would a user who never reads the wiki know to install your script?

I'd suppose by searching. Newbie would summarize do so and I get things going.
Several time I propose links to pages to read, here and local Archlinux forum. These newbies will come back with responses like the even know what is the blue writing meaning. Even commonly the jump chapters to go to try out what they acquired, (including myself some time yikes )
Even it would be a front page in Archlinux which states You must read wiki before start I doubt there'll be many doing so. (like signing a bank's contract terms big_smile)


do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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#10 2014-11-24 18:16:56

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

Scimmia wrote:

This is Arch after all, users are expected to have some knowledge of how a Linux system works.

I'm totally not objecting this point.
My thinking is about how to inform such newbie the real Archlinux concept.
My idea is to give them the chance (some time it may be a bit quick-and-dirty way), but then, am I wrong ?

Scimmia wrote:

You can set that in makepkg.conf.

Thanks, one more point : "How pacman install an uncompressed package?"


do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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#11 2014-11-24 18:20:44

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

TheSaint wrote:

Thanks, one more point : "How pacman install an uncompressed package?"

I don't understand. You create an Arch package using makepkg (which you then install with pacman). Whether it will be compressed or not and using which compression mechanism will be used depends on the makepkg.conf settings.

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#12 2014-11-24 18:22:17

Scimmia
Fellow
Registered: 2012-09-01
Posts: 11,466

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

TheSaint wrote:
Scimmia wrote:

This is Arch after all, users are expected to have some knowledge of how a Linux system works.

I'm totally not objecting this point.
My thinking is about how to inform such newbie the real Archlinux concept.
My idea is to give them the chance (some time it may be a bit quick-and-dirty way), but then, am I wrong ?

How did they install Arch in the first place? Using the wiki. The beginner's guide has a bunch of links for more information, all to other wiki pages. I don't understand the confusion. Where are they expecting to find this information?

TheSaint wrote:
Scimmia wrote:

You can set that in makepkg.conf.

Thanks, one more point : "How pacman install an uncompressed package?"

The same why you install any other package? Or am I not understanding the question?

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#13 2014-11-24 18:28:25

2ManyDogs
Forum Moderator
Registered: 2012-01-15
Posts: 4,645

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

TheSaint wrote:

Probably there are such scripts around, but none is candidate to the official repositories. Any particular feeling about it ?

jasonwryan wrote:
AUR entry on the wiki wrote:

Warning: There is not and will never be an official mechanism for installing build material from the AUR. All AUR users should be familiar with the build process.

Trilby wrote:

I'm really confused about this post.  You claim the target audience are those who would not read a wiki page.  If one would refuse to read a clearly written wiki page they really shouldn't be using archlinux.  Period.

Are we done yet? Anyone who can't (or won't) read the wiki and figure out how to install AUR packages manually won't read and figure out how to use a "helper." Or worse, they will use the helper and complain when it doesn't work the way they expect, because they didn't read the wiki (see all the posts complaining about yaourt).

Last edited by 2ManyDogs (2014-11-24 18:33:28)


How to post. A sincere effort to use modest and proper language and grammar is a sign of respect toward the community.

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#14 2014-11-24 18:30:48

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Re: Handling AUR and unofficial packages

OK, close.


do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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