Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

HisDudeness · 2016-04-22 11:18:10

I use email primarily to create accounts on websites. Rarely to converse with other people.

Still, in the little use I do, I'd want to avoid contributing to prosperity of companies who are pretty the diametrical opposite of FOSS.

I'm not really worried about privacy, I don't mind god-knows-who reading my mails, as long as data of my money-related accounts (home baking, eBay and such) are not stolen, but I've never heard that happening outside in falling in some fishing trap. As long as my provider uses SSL, STARTTLS or such, I should be safe.

What I'm concerned about is contributing to large numbers surrounding not really ethical and FSF-like sustainable giant corporations like Google or such. I'd want to be part of something more oriented towards a free-as-in-freedom internet.

What about riseup? Is the mail service they offer fit to an IMAP/account-creating use?
Are there other mail providers who use FOSS to run their services and are in the optics of computing freedom, as oppose to "proprietary-like" ones like Microsoft's Outlook, Google's Gmail and such? Is openmailbox a valid one?

Trilby · 2016-04-22 11:24:55

HisDudeness wrote:

... are in the optics of computing freedom...

So you want a mail provider that looks like they care about FOSS and security because they throw around the right buzz words and shiboleths and know the secret handshake, rather than ones that are actually secure or do actually contribute to FOSS?

Email goes over the net and is passed along various servers. It doesn't matter if you boycot gmail, for example, a large portion of emails from or two you will sill go through google's mail servers ... unless of course you just send emails to and from yourself. The only emails that aren't visible to "the net" are the ones not sent.

HisDudeness · 2016-04-22 14:09:59

That's not what I'm concern about. I know most mails will go through Google's servers anyway. Even my campus switched from its own server to googlemail.

I just want to make them have an account less, and have some other provider (which uses only FOSS to run their servers and somehow endorses free software) one more.

More than anything, in this topic I wanted to know your impression and what you know about, say, riseup, Autistici/Inventati or even openmailbox. When you say "looks like they care about FOSS and security because they throw around the right buzz words and shiboleths and know the secret handshake" you refer to them? Is there anyone around who "do actually contribute to FOSS" that provide an email service, to your knowledge.

Again, I'm not concerned about privacy or security or anything like that, I know that email in itself is in contradiction with that. I'd just want to get my personal mail from somebody who cares about computing freedom. It's like when I got rid of Microsoft from my laptop. Whenever I do something I have to print in my campus, it has to be Windows-compatible. I can't even have my USB key formatted to ext4, as I don't have administrative privileges to install ext drivers on those computers. But, in the meantime, my own personal laptop runs on GNU/Linux only and mostly FOSS, non-proprietary software, and I'm happy with that.

Durden · 2016-04-22 14:16:14

Riseup is extremely political. If you agree with their communist/socialist political philosophy then knock yourself out and go with them. They are FOSS friendly.

Not quite sure what you're really trying to achieve. If you want email you control then just setup your own mail server on Vultr or DigitalOcean and use that. You can get a cheap domain and use LetsEncrypt to secure communications. You can do this all using FLOSS.

To each their own I guess.

HisDudeness · 2016-04-22 14:23:27

Naah, I don't have the time nor the competence to do that. I'm just ok with being sure a team is really contributing to FOSS and computing freedom. Then, I'll try and get a mail account with them. It's like choosing to buy (maybe a stupid metaphor, but it's the best I can find) a fair trade product instead of giving my money to a random large multinational.

Once I know a team is really into FOSS, I'm going to read up their manifesto, TOS and such and if I agree that's ok. I'd just want to avoid losing time with someone who's just a lot of talk (and a badge?). I'd want to avoid someone, like Trilby said, who just knows the secret handshake.

I read A/I is a lot politically oriented too. What about openmailbox? Is it really what it claims, or did they just put "open" in their name, AFAYK?

Trilby · 2016-04-22 16:04:22

If you use their email servers without paying them anything, you are not supporting their efforts to contribute to FOSS. If anything, you are limiting it. Riseup, or any other group offering free email does not benefit from having you as a user. That's what I don't get here ... if you want to contribute to organizations that support FOSS, give something to them, don't take something from them.

elkoraco · 2016-04-22 16:34:26

HisDudeness wrote:

Naah, I don't have the time nor the competence to do that.

You could have don this in the time it took you to write these posts.

dmerej · 2016-04-22 17:42:49

You may find proton mail interesting.

They provide a solution to encrypt your e-mails, the code is open, and the data is stored in Switzerland, where they deeply care about privacy.

TheChickenMan · 2016-04-22 17:58:14

Google may be a "giant corporation" but that does not mean that they cannot contribute to FOSS. They're not perfect for sure but they're still nowhere near the diabolical masterminds behind the death of software freedom that some would have you believe.

Google released FOSS projects
Google funded FOSS projects

Last edited by TheChickenMan (2016-04-22 17:58:32)

HisDudeness · 2016-04-22 20:07:02

Trilby wrote:

If you use their email servers without paying them anything, you are not supporting their efforts to contribute to FOSS. If anything, you are limiting it. Riseup, or any other group offering free email does not benefit from having you as a user. That's what I don't get here ... if you want to contribute to organizations that support FOSS, give something to them, don't take something from them.

My intention was indeed to make them a donation once decided they are what I need. Right now I'm more oriented towards A/I, I'd really like to support a non-profit organization of Italian hackers/activists. I'll make a request there and see if I get accepted.

elkoraco wrote:

You could have don this in the time it took you to write these posts.

The competence problem still remain. First, I'd have to learn what creating a mail server on those sites really mean, learn how to do it... this will take far more than posting on the forums my doubts to see if someone can help me clear them. Also, this would surely have a cost. I'd rather use that money to support an union of hackers, hoping that the low-profile and careful use I have of my email will cost them less than creating my server would cost me, considering the fact that they have everything's needed.

TheChickenMan wrote:

Google may be a "giant corporation" but that does not mean that they cannot contribute to FOSS. They're not perfect for sure but they're still nowhere near the diabolical masterminds behind the death of software freedom that some would have you believe.

Google is no Microsoft, I know. Still, I don't really like the way they make business. It's not that I care about getting targeted ads, it's that, as an Android user and a possessor of an YouTube account before they purchased the platform, I see how, instead of making their services appealing, they silently force you to have a G+ account in order to participate in YT, and they force you to use their cloud services by submitting your contacts "so that you don't lose them" in order to use your smartphone as a phone. If I can move my "business" somewhere else, I'd prefer to resort to Google as little as I can.
Oh, and great signature by the way. That quote obviously was in my QM textbook's first page. As true as it gets.

Last edited by HisDudeness (2016-04-22 20:08:40)

elkoraco · 2016-04-22 20:36:05

HisDudeness wrote:

The competence problem still remain. First, I'd have to learn what creating a mail server on those sites really mean, learn how to do it... this will take far more than posting on the forums my doubts to see if someone can help me clear them. Also, this would surely have a cost. I'd rather use that money to support an union of hackers, hoping that the low-profile and careful use I have of my email will cost them less than creating my server would cost me, considering the fact that they have everything's needed.

You don't even need to set up an email server. Just register a domain, get a cheap shared hosting account, which 99 percent of the time comes with CentOS and a preconfigured email setup with Dovecot, postfix and other FSF approved stuff, then you just input your desired email account name and off you go.

TheChickenMan · 2016-04-23 00:06:30

HisDudeness wrote:

Google is no Microsoft, I know. Still, I don't really like the way they make business. It's not that I care about getting targeted ads, it's that, as an Android user and a possessor of an YouTube account before they purchased the platform, I see how, instead of making their services appealing, they silently force you to have a G+ account in order to participate in YT, and they force you to use their cloud services by submitting your contacts "so that you don't lose them" in order to use your smartphone as a phone. If I can move my "business" somewhere else, I'd prefer to resort to Google as little as I can.
Oh, and great signature by the way. That quote obviously was in my QM textbook's first page. As true as it gets.

That's as good an explanation as any I guess. If you would like to avoid that type of service, have you considered grabbing a cheap web hosting package from someone? You could have a place to throw up your git server to host code, whatever other services you might need, etc and most of them come with some included email access on your own domain. Having your own email domain looks particularly stylish on your business card too.

HisDudeness · 2016-04-23 07:54:57

elkoraco wrote:

You don't even need to set up an email server. Just register a domain, get a cheap shared hosting account, which 99 percent of the time comes with CentOS and a preconfigured email setup with Dovecot, postfix and other FSF approved stuff, then you just input your desired email account name and off you go.

Really, it's not like I won't listen to any alternative proposition (I wouldn't have posted here in that case), it's just that I can't seem to know where to begin, and it looks to me it's hard and time consuming to even get a grasp at it. It just may be me being rather obtuse or something like that, but looking around I can't even orientate myself around guides and how-tos. For example, is this a good tutorial? And has setting up my own mail any sense if I'm relying on someone else (like Vultr or DigitalOcean) to get the servers or anything? After all, it's not like I'm really trying having control in each tiny step of the process, I'd just want to resort to someone who really respects freedom of use. If I can get everything directly from them it's okay to me, it would be wasted work to achieve something I don't really care for right now, just because it has what I want as a consequence. Again, that's not me criticising, it's me genuinely not understanding.

TheChickenMan wrote:

That's as good an explanation as any I guess. If you would like to avoid that type of service, have you considered grabbing a cheap web hosting package from someone? You could have a place to throw up your git server to host code, whatever other services you might need, etc and most of them come with some included email access on your own domain. Having your own email domain looks particularly stylish on your business card too.

I think I misled you with my "business" in quotes. I meant the regular usage of the average Joe (mostly using my mail to create accounts in site), it's not like I have a real business. My skills as a programmer are on the lower academic end, informatics isn't really my field. I'm just a (rather inexperienced as well) GNU/Linux user, which at best makes some elementary script once in a while to help himself in its everyday computer use, but I don't have any code to share with anyone, programming isn't my occupation. I want a mail like 99% of people. I'd just want to avoid proprietary software and corporations which limit freedom of use and profit every new account (that's legit), but don't definitely need "my" money.
I'm looking for an easy alternative to Gmail, Outlook, Yahoo or Gmx which I'm using right now, coming from someone offering something free as in freedom, not necessarily as in gratis. And an alternative which can be used even by the most inexperienced of computer users.

Last edited by HisDudeness (2016-04-23 07:58:29)

ngoonee · 2016-04-23 19:50:32

Your aims are fairly contradictory though. Part of the reason gmail/outlook etc. are 'easy' is because of their size as corporations (and the resulting developers/infrastructure etc. blah blah). Something which can be used by inexperienced users is difficult to imagine coming from open source roots, because part of (not the entirety) the POINT is control.

You're trying to make a technical decision on philosophical/'moral' grounds. Which is fine and good, but there are fairly steep tradeoffs involved. Basically because there is a genuine dollar cost to providing email service (which consumers don't notice nowadays because the corporations don't charge for it), and making the service profitable as a subscription is a hard problem.

Trilby · 2016-04-23 19:55:29

HisDudeness wrote:

My intention was indeed to make them a donation once decided they are what I need.

Your missing my point (as it would seem I must be missing yours): you can donate to a FOSS-friendly organization without using their email. Using their email service and contributing to their effots (financially or otherwise) are not at all related. You do not show your support for FOSS by using a more-FOSS-friendly email anymore than someone helps the environment by driving a huge truck with a "Save the planet" bumper sticker.

Arch Linux

#1 2016-04-22 11:18:10

Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#2 2016-04-22 11:24:55

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#3 2016-04-22 14:09:59

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#4 2016-04-22 14:16:14

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#5 2016-04-22 14:23:27

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#6 2016-04-22 16:04:22

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#7 2016-04-22 16:34:26

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#8 2016-04-22 17:42:49

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#9 2016-04-22 17:58:14

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#10 2016-04-22 20:07:02

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#11 2016-04-22 20:36:05

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#12 2016-04-23 00:06:30

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#13 2016-04-23 07:54:57

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#14 2016-04-23 19:50:32

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

#15 2016-04-23 19:55:29

Re: Thoughts on riseup and FOSS email

Board footer