TU problems

Dusty · 2006-05-15 23:54:15

I've been reviewing the mailing list discussion, TU guidelines, ammendment to the guidelines, and Phil's recent tirade at James in the forum here. I've come to a simple conclusion that is probably obvious to a lot of people, and yet has not been voiced.

dtw appears to be a bit power hungry and more interested in what is good for dtw than in what is good for Arch Linux. He's made several good contributions to the project, but apparently all with the intent of advancing himself in his own eyes. While many users will let it slide if someone uses their work, dtw tends to make irrelevant comments highlighting his involvement in any project he takes part in.

He's also basically taken over the forums here as head administrator in a system that was once governed by multiple moderators. Recent changes were made without any involvement of the other advisors. All of these issues can easily be let to slide, however.

However, what I have seen in the TU mailing lists is very disturbing. DTW seems to be attempting to lead a mutiny against the devs. He appears to be attempting to take charge of the entire TU group, where it is supposed to be run cooperatively by all TUs. He's forced all the Arch devs to quit their TU positions. I propose that he did this intentionally as they all have some concept of authority over him, and were in the way of his efforts to become the head TU. From reading the replies to the lists, it seems that while most TUs don't seem to care one way or the other, none support dtw in these long-term goals, and most did not insist that the developers had no right being TUs.

As such, I'm calling on all TUs to review the "Removal of a TU" section of the TU Guidelines: http://archlinux.org/~simo/TUbylaws.html#Removal

I have no intention of telling the TUs what to do, but I believe most of them, *especially* the ones that have been give developer positions are more concerned about this distribution than about their own advancement in whatever ranks they choose to believe exist. I don't consider the TUs to be an elite community of people in control of the packages I use, I consider them to be users, just like me, who have volunteered to help us all out. I understand that some TUs, and I won't name any more names, disagree with this position and consider themselves to be above other members of the community. Which are you?

I appologize for rousing yet more trouble on these boards, especially when the TUs have already dealt so much, but hopefully in the long term, this will be seen as a solution that may need to be acted upon.

Best regards,
Dusty

WillySilly · 2006-05-16 00:05:57

The only error I see in what you said is:

He's forced all the Arch devs to quit their TU positions

No one was forced to leave, nor has any dev left the TU team.

Dusty · 2006-05-16 00:14:53

WillySilly wrote:

The only error I see in what you said is:
He's forced all the Arch devs to quit their TU positions
No one was forced to leave, nor has any dev left the TU team.

Hmm.... right. Try "pressured", as in politics. The intent was obviously subversive, not openly stated.

cactus · 2006-05-16 00:36:44

I am jack's raging lack of suprise.

Dusty, you should be ashamed of yourself, as should *everyone* involved in this sordid affair.

blech.

codemac · 2006-05-16 01:32:56

We just voted down a proposal for a change of the TU bylaws drawn up by TomK and supported mainly by dtw. For dtw to actually change something politically about the TUs, it has to be done through amendment of the TU bylaws. If enough people support him, then the changes should happen anyways. Just like Removal of a TU would require, anything dtw wants to change has to go through the rest of us.

I trust both of them to maintain packakges, and I think dtw is doing a fine job of the forums. The TUs have bylaws to keep one person's ideas from becoming the standard, and everyone has a right to their own. As far as forum moderators etc, I really have no opinion as I have no idea how that works.

I think removing dtw would just be a knee-jerk reaction to TUs disagreeing.

iBertus · 2006-05-16 03:10:09

I get the feeling that alot of people around here don't have anything else to worry about. I haven't been monitoring the mailing lists, but the changes made here in the forums haven't resulted in any visible problems.

If you wish to know how I feel about the incident between dtw and iphitus, read my response to that thread.

dtw · 2006-05-16 07:27:12

I actually thought this was a joke when I first read it. Fortunately I have to go to work which will probably stop me making an even bigger mess of this.

Up until recently I have been what I thought was fairly good "chums" with Dusty but we fell out over a minor change to the forums. It is true that I didn't consult the FA team on this matter but to be honest I wasn't aware that I was supposed to. I considered it such a minor change and I think all the FAs will confirm that I never make major changes without at least discussion, although we stopped short of a vote in most cases . In the past I have been left to make minor changes without reference to the other FA and nobody ever complained before. I can quite happily reverse them after all.

Regarding the TU stuff...

As far as I know I haven't done anything that is forbidden and I have done everything I am supposed to do. How I can be removed on that basis puzzles me. I don't think I should be chucked out because I ask questions of the system - i thought that was important for growth anyway.

If it were an issue of personality, well, you could argue a strong case there based on the evidence but I would say that the back channels have always been open and I talk to Simo and Iphitus more than anyone else in the Arch community.

I apologise for the fuss - I'd also suggest that people read the tur-users list for themselves:

http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur- … 02617.html

You'll notice that a) I never demanded anything and any suggestion of that was actually a result of other people distorting my words b) having asked the original question I was totally satisfied by the counter points that were made.

It's a shame that it got out of hand. I never had any nefarious intentions - as I said in the thead I thought we were all good enough buddies to discuss it in the open. Clearly I was wrong.

iphitus · 2006-05-16 07:48:03

*shrug*

Dusty: If you'd like the removal of a TU invoked, you'd be better contacting the TU's themselves, either individually or on their mailing list, rather than posting in such a public forum. Although I disagree with the interest in the removal of a TU, simply because his views may and have clashed. Take a look at the AUR, dibble does maintain his fair share of packages, and maintains them well, and this must not be ignored.

As for the thread, I wasn't innocent in that thread either, I said some inflammatory things. I tend to be sarcastic at times, and forget that sarcasm doesnt work through non verbal mediums.

Things I have written which to me would not have seemed contentious, have caused a blue in the past, so it's a combination of a range of things like, language differences, lack of tone and visual cues which can lead to misunderstanding.

I guess the one thing we can take out of this, is to take what you read online with a grain of salt, more often than not, things are misinterpreted very easily.

i'm with cactus on this one, I think we ought to just forget about this issue. Futher discussion will just cause further turmoil.

James

Mr Green · 2006-05-16 07:58:35

I guess us 'users' do not get a say in this matter ?

iphitus · 2006-05-16 08:05:06

Mr Green wrote:

I guess us 'users' do not get a say in this matter ?

This post was made in a public forum, and it's your distro too. So yeah go for it, but I dont see anything much which really needs to be said by anyone here, devs, tu's, users or penguins.

Mr Green · 2006-05-16 08:08:35

No you are right .. I think enough has been said

brain0 · 2006-05-16 08:34:46

dtw wrote:

As far as I know I haven't done anything that is forbidden and I have done everything I am supposed to do.

You are right you didn't. You may have started the discussion in a new thread, but we can ignore that for now

How I can be removed on that basis puzzles me. I don't think I should be chucked out because I ask questions of the system - i thought that was important for growth anyway.

I never really blamed you. It's only sad that the discussion got out of control.

I apologise for the fuss - I'd also suggest that people read the tur-users list for themselves:
http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur- … 02617.html

I suggest they don't read it. It's not really entertaining.

Mr Green · 2006-05-16 08:40:07

emmmm

Well devs are higher up so you would only think they should have part in the
election, really anyone higher than a Tu, should have a voice.

Like part of the food chain lol

dtw · 2006-05-16 08:51:17

brain0 wrote:

dtw wrote:
As far as I know I haven't done anything that is forbidden and I have done everything I am supposed to do.
You are right you didn't. You may have started the discussion in a new thread, but we can ignore that for now

I forgot that bit

Moo-Crumpus · 2006-05-16 09:14:52

Please don't let it become a vanity fair. Non verbal mediums tend to missunderstandig, a joke could propably be offendig, sarcasm and irony will hardly work as in a verbal conversation.
I respect every one of you, tu, dev, advisor, users, geeks and penguins, and will not have to miss anyone of the archlinux pack.

Love and peace.

Mr Green · 2006-05-16 09:42:49

Moo-Crumpus wrote:

Please don't let it become a vanity fair. Non verbal mediums tend to missunderstandig, a joke could propably be offendig, sarcasm and irony will hardly work as in a verbal conversation.
I respect every one of you, tu, dev, advisor, users, geeks and penguins, and will not miss anyone of the archlinux pack.
Love and peace.

I agree I never its just text on a screen to me .....

Hey Judd pimp me box dude!!!!!!!!

dtw · 2006-05-16 14:28:22

I have only just read Dusty's whole original post, having been overcome with shock initially.

WillySilly wrote:

The only error I see in what you said is:
He's forced all the Arch devs to quit their TU positions
No one was forced to leave, nor has any dev left the TU team.

The only error? What about the fact that not only did someone else agree with me THEY even penned the Bylaw ammendment?

I'm shocked and baffled.

Dusty · 2006-05-16 15:20:54

Ok, some quick responses:

a) I certainly shouldn't have posted this publicly. I didn't think of the TU list because I'm not subscribed to it, as I'm sure many people will recall.

b) This thread was not started because of my issues with dtw, though there have been a few recently. I listed these for background, not with the intent of further damaging his reputation, but to clarify that I am not an objective observer of this whole episode. (This would appear to be the case if I had only mentioned the TU discussions, in which I have taken no part, at any time).

c) I have a lot of respect for many of the things dtw has done for Arch. I question only the motivation behind them.

d) I've had several prominent users independently complaining to me about his behaviour and/or mentioning other users with similar issues. I have no idea why they chose me, but I felt it was not a coincidence. This was my entire motivation for this thread.

Several of the TUs seem to think they are some elite group of special users that have been nominated by the community, a buffer between the normal users and the developers with some sense of power. I think this is the wrong attitude to be cultivated -- I've had discussions with the original creater of the TU repositories and with the developer of the AUR, and it was never the intent of either of them to create another group of "sub-developer packagers".

The emphasis in "Trusted User" should not be on the word "Trusted", but on the word "User". The TUs are simply normal users who have volunteered to help the community. They should not take on TU duties in order to make some kind of name for themselves. I believe most of the TUs have this correct attitude, but the most noticeable ones do not, and they are giving the whole system a bad rep. Perhaps "remember our status as normal Arch Linux users and humble members of the community" should be added to the mission statement of the TU bylaws. ;-)

Dusty

dtw · 2006-05-16 16:05:25

Dusty wrote:

I've had several prominent users independently complaining to me about his behaviour and/or mentioning other users with similar issues. I have no idea why they chose me, but I felt it was not a coincidence. This was my entire motivation for this thread.

I hate talking about people behind their backs, mainly because I don't like people doing it to me but that doesn't mean I never do it. But I'd like to check if they were actually advocating some sort of action or just venting in the way we all do sometimes! If I've done something to annoy/offend/upset then telling Dusty about it isn't helping anyone - if it's bought directly to me then I might actually be able to do something about it.

Aside from the obvious, I can't recall the last time I even had a run in with someone about anything. I'm still on speaking terms with the people involved in the latest excitement (except Dusty despite my efforts) and so, other than that, I dunno what to say!

Dusty wrote:

Several of the TUs seem to think they are some elite group of special users that have been nominated by the community...

I would maintain that the TU group is, if anything, more accessible than any other notable group, namely the Dev and Forum Adviser groups, which often recruit entirely without public discussion or recourse.

And as far as elitism is concerned...what power does a TU have that anyone would crave? It's merely access to a repository to host your stuff. Sure you get to vote on who may or may not get added to the TU group but you hardly get to decide and control every aspect! (How I could ever seek to wrestle control in such an environment is beyond me.) The power of the TU group is well out of my or any individual TUs hands, which is why we have the voting. I'm not sure what people think I might be capable of doing? Only a fool would think one person can make a difference in such a system. However, a group of people, acting in secret could, and that's what the big TU/dev debate was about. Or did you miss that part amidst my demands for people to step down and acknowledge me as supreme ruler of the universe? However, it was decided that the devs wouldn't do that.

For the last week I have sat down at my box to do various pieces of Arch "work" and ended up embroiled in debate about all sorts of, frankly, pointless nonsense. That's my fault for getting involved but I'm sick of it too. I want to "get back to work" now.

[edit] in bold

dtw · 2006-05-16 16:21:02

Can I just ask - is it really "Several of the TUs..." or is it just me? I also wonder if you are suggesting I have abused my position to futher my own ends? If that is the accusation then how have I abused it and what have I achieved? Because, as far as I can tell I have only ever come off worse as a result of one of my "I've been thinking..." faux pas. Or do people think it is all part of my master plan to come across as utterly inept, crass, clumsy and totally lacking in foresight when it comes to discussion? Sadly I must say that's just me. What a truely pathetic agent provocatuer I am. The only person I am a danger to is myself.

It is sad that that might come to reflect badly on Arch but at the end of the day it's never just me with a guilty concience and blood on my hands is it? I rarely even good as I get when the gloves come off.

Moo-Crumpus · 2006-05-16 17:20:58

Come on, dtw, let's conquer the world, mwuhahaha...

I admit the situation is NOT funny at all, and it reminds me - somehow - of shakespeare, as if a king was in fear to loose his thrown. My english is way to bad to explain all my thoughts. What I understand sounds like bullying against dtw.
I would prefer to make this thread vanish and disappear.

But as long as it is official, I feel free to comment - but with the bad feeling as if I was sitting in a restaurant, and just can 't ignore remarking a marital row next to me.

Dusty might have had some intentions for posting it, but it ain't clear for me, allthough he talked about it. As far as I can see, dtw was only sharing his ideas, asking if things are still fitting, and if not some things should not be changed. We all know he can be a bullhead: he won't stop asking and debating until he is conviced or he convinced others. This is why we like him, and why he *can* be such a curse, but this is how he affected a lot of things. But someones-somehow-sometimes could take this as a real threat.

Furthermore, imho, Dusty fall back in selve-defence, as if he might thought he unmasked dtw to be his personal regicide. Or the hidden complainers thought this, who knows and cares.

I would be glad if all the people that complained about dtw behind his back would have the grit to tell him about their complaints and give him the chance to comment, and if not would advice dtw to handle it as just a buzz.

I beg your pardon for have been rude.

Cerebral · 2006-05-16 17:24:08

Drama!

I dunno; for me, I've never had a problem with dtw. I mean, he might have some different ideas from me, and he may feel more strongly on some things than I do, but meh, he's entitled.

As far as him wanting credit for his work; I like being credited and appreciated for work I do too.

dtw in general is just more vocal, and perhaps a bit more blunt, about issues he feels are important than I'd be. I don't necessarily see a problem with that though, just a clash of personalities, and I can deal with that.

Maybe I'm blind/nieve/untuned to the 'hidden agenda', but I've never thought dtw to be such a way. I've also never considered the devs would have some hidden agenda as well, as a throwback to Dev/TU stuff... heh, I guess I assume the best of people.

dtw · 2006-05-16 17:26:30

One of said "behind backers" has come forward an I would actually give him a big hug for doing so I'm so pleased

In fact I am about to invite him to #fvwm where I'll get xteddy to sort him out on my behalf

btw, honest to God, my Dad's nickname is Bullhead...

arooaroo · 2006-05-16 17:56:02

Jesi-Chrisi, what a mess.

C'mon guys, now that everything's been laid out, misunderstandings clarified, etc, etc, surely it's time to hug and make up (or shake hands if you're not so chumsy just yet).

Otherwise, I'll have to come to see both of you and give you a boxing around the ears, like only a kangaroo can.

PS Dibble, for a southern softie, you don't 'arf cause a lot of fuss

arooaroo · 2006-05-16 17:57:04

dtw wrote:

btw...

Is this a relative?!

Arch Linux

#1 2006-05-15 23:54:15

TU problems

#2 2006-05-16 00:05:57

Re: TU problems

#3 2006-05-16 00:14:53

Re: TU problems

#4 2006-05-16 00:36:44

Re: TU problems

#5 2006-05-16 01:32:56

Re: TU problems

#6 2006-05-16 03:10:09

Re: TU problems

#7 2006-05-16 07:27:12

Re: TU problems

#8 2006-05-16 07:48:03

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#9 2006-05-16 07:58:35

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Re: TU problems

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