Arch-Update

kensai · 2006-06-13 15:03:08

congratulations CyRiX_BlAcK you are on the Arch Newsletters for this week.

deficite · 2006-06-14 02:11:49

I think it'd be fine if Arch had an accepted GUI for pacman. Fortunately, we don't. Guys, how hard is it to run a "pacman -Syu" every once in a while? If anything, you could schedule a cron job to update all your packages once a week (not something I'd like to do....I like to get out of X before I update anything related to it)

McQueen · 2006-06-14 02:56:34

In the end there is nothing _wrong_ with a GUI update tool thingy, but instead simply depends upon whether it is desired by people who are willing to make it happen. I do not believe it should ever be a default item in Arch as that seems to go against the "Arch way", but it is also the Arch way to allow people the freedom to incorporate new features that others can use if they find them helpful.

kensai · 2006-06-14 17:56:43

McQueen wrote:

In the end there is nothing _wrong_ with a GUI update tool thingy, but instead simply depends upon whether it is desired by people who are willing to make it happen. I do not believe it should ever be a default item in Arch as that seems to go against the "Arch way", but it is also the Arch way to allow people the freedom to incorporate new features that others can use if they find them helpful.

Nicely said, all this OTHER things should be made available by someone willing to make the effort but, should not be default.

Komodo · 2006-06-14 20:12:19

deficite wrote:

I think it'd be fine if Arch had an accepted GUI for pacman. Fortunately, we don't. Guys, how hard is it to run a "pacman -Syu" every once in a while? If anything, you could schedule a cron job to update all your packages once a week (not something I'd like to do....I like to get out of X before I update anything related to it)

Agreed; if you really want an auto-update, just cron the selected pacman command, preferably run inside a visible terminal, so you can read any warnings or notices

urxvt -e pacman -Syu

If you really want a 'taskbar' version, then make one yourself in pypanel's rc file, or using the adesklet wrapper applet for example.

You can't create a generic taskbar app for it really... well, I suppose you could, but there's not much point. Even in a DE like KDE, you could just use an alltray command in your crontab to iconify the terminal running the update.

soloport · 2006-06-14 20:16:42

Philosophy: User-related stuff, GUI is OK. Admin stuff, CLI only. For example, a home network where there's a kid's PC, a spouse's PC and the Linux admin of the house's PC. The admin would do admin things as 'root' for any of the PCs but would (hoepfuly) do so only from a command line interface.

So, pacman notification on the admin's GUI interface seems reasonable. But a GUI to update pacman? I have a hard time with that notion...

Just a personal bias.

ibrahim · 2006-06-14 22:47:34

I am completed baffled as to why this idea is getting the responses it is. An app informing me that updates are available isn't something that I personally would want but that's all it is, an app to inform that updates are available. I don't know if it's just that a lot of you have poor reading comprehension or maybe you're just too busy patting yourselves on the back for being uber l33t hax0rs who know how to use the cli to actually take the time out to actually read the proposition but CyRiX_BlAcK was not suggesting automatic installation of upgrades and so I really have no clue why people are talking about just creating a cron job for pacman -Syu

soloport · 2006-06-14 23:10:39

ibrahim wrote:

I don't know if it's just that a lot of you have poor reading comprehension or maybe you're just too busy patting yourselves on the back for being uber l33t hax0rs who know how to use the cli to actually take the time out to actually read the proposition but...

I for one am just too busy patting myself on the back for being an uber l33t hax0r who knows how to use the cli to actually take the time out to actually read the proposition.

Was that the right answer? :shock:

kensai · 2006-06-15 02:15:28

Welcome me to the group of "uber l33t hax0r who knows how to use the cli to actually take the time out to actually read the proposition" wow a really kool nickname.

Man come on things like this get a lot of responce go and watch the thread in Gentoo forums about some person sugesting a GUI for system administration it was more than 5 pages longs last time I replied in it.

ibrahim · 2006-06-15 10:38:18

kensai wrote:

Man come on things like this get a lot of responce go and watch the thread in Gentoo forums about some person sugesting a GUI for system administration it was more than 5 pages longs last time I replied in it.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with a lot of responses, in fact I think discussion is a great thing. What am I pondering over is why it is that so many people are saying saying auto upgrades are bad when THE OP NEVER SUGGESTED AUTO UPGRADES. Really I think that before dismissing the idea (and like I said, I don't think it's particularly useful) a person should at least read the first post and know what it is that they are saying no instead of just forming some knee jerk reaction to they think the guy suggested

lumiwa · 2006-06-15 11:30:08

Hi!

I am in the "group" which likes Pacman as it is.
When I decided to update than I update and there are no difficult to find new packages.

kensai · 2006-06-15 17:37:22

@ibrahim: Yeah I understand sorry, for the crude reply.

deficite · 2006-06-16 03:12:54

Wee! I get to be in a new group! Oh, uh, what's that? I mean, what new group? I didn't read about any new groups, I mean my comprehension skills are so low that I couldn't have possibly read that. Oops, sorry.

And to think that having an opinion that differs from someone else's instantly gives me poor comprehension skills and a superiority complex, is quite amusing. You know, Arch is just a distro, nobody has to have approval just create a little notifier app that says that updates are ready. So, what are you going to do when the updater informs you of updates? You'll open up a console and type "pacman -Syu". So what are you accomplishing here? You have to type the same fricken' command either way. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to go over your head with my uber h4x0r skillz.

Komodo · 2006-06-16 08:10:33

ibrahim wrote:

I am completed baffled as to why this idea is getting the responses it is. An app informing me that updates are available isn't something that I personally would want but that's all it is, an app to inform that updates are available. I don't know if it's just that a lot of you have poor reading comprehension or maybe you're just too busy patting yourselves on the back for being uber l33t hax0rs who know how to use the cli to actually take the time out to actually read the proposition but CyRiX_BlAcK was not suggesting automatic installation of upgrades and so I really have no clue why people are talking about just creating a cron job for pacman -Syu

when you've finished patting yourself on the back for being a hostility-inspiring dillwad, ibrahim, perhaps you ought to read again the OP's post.

it says, and i quote:

It can be setup to popup when theres updates, comming up with a list of the updates and a UPDATE NOW button, when clicked it asks for the root password to carry on.

now let's look at the definition of automatic, shall we:

http://www.google.com/search?client=ope … 8&oe=utf-8

the first relevant, easy-to-understand entry gives us:

operating with minimal human intervention;

now forgive me if i'm wrong, but i personally would say that an app that a) searches for updates on its own, and b) allows you to download every one of them with an 'Update Now' button and a password fulfills the criterion of 'operating with minimal human intervention'.

For fairness, let's look at it objectively. What if we're wrong, and it does not count as 'automatic'. Then how would an 'automatic' version behave? Presumably it searches for updates and installs them without you knowing about it. Since it may well be updating your version of X, or your window manager, or one or more of the apps you're running there and then, it would seem prudent to have a popup listing the apps to be upgraded prior to installation, since otherwise it would have to kill all those apps running that are being upgraded, in order to safely upgrade them.

since that's the case, it also seems logical that, with an automatic system, you would have an 'Update Now' button, as you may have bigger priorities at that particular moment than reading the update list, and hence a timeout may not give you sufficient time.

finally, having a password input or not would completely depend on whether you ran the app as root in the first place, i would assume, so discussing that aspect is a moot point.

so perhaps, before slating those around you, you should do your research more carefully. more importantly though, and regardless of how certain you are of your correctness, perhaps injecting your statements with humour rather than insults would give you a warmer reception, and make you less likely to seem like a willy. communication is all we humans have. if we don't use it optimally, then we're just wasting time, and it can never be reclaimed.

ibrahim · 2006-06-16 09:32:07

Komodo wrote:

when you've finished patting yourself on the back for being a hostility-inspiring dillwad, ibrahim, perhaps you ought to read again the OP's post.
perhaps injecting your statements with humour rather than insults would give you a warmer reception, and make you less likely to seem like a willy.

Wait, so is name calling (which i didn't do by the way) bad or not?

Well is my face red because after all, nobody took the OP to be recommending automatic upgrades with no intervention

or did they...

deficite wrote:

I think it'd be fine if Arch had an accepted GUI for pacman. Fortunately, we don't. Guys, how hard is it to run a "pacman -Syu" every once in a while? If anything, you could schedule a cron job to update all your packages once a week (not something I'd like to do....I like to get out of X before I update anything related to it)

Komodo · 2006-06-16 10:11:35

ibrahim wrote:

Wait, so is name calling (which i didn't do by the way) bad or not?

You didn't name call? Really? I must have made up the 'uber l33t hax0rs' in your post then. Or no, perhaps it was a complimentary term

twiistedkaos · 2006-06-16 15:28:30

Hmm sounds like an interesting project. But I have to state my input now xD. I believe tools like this are agaisnt the arch way, if you're seriously too last to type pacman -Suy in the terminal and need some applet to do it for you automatically why not just make a bash script, use crond, and walla? Sure these tools that you speak of are useful, but can cause more problems that you know. IE: Not knowing what was updated can cause problems with breaking dependancies for certain programs and you wouln't know what update did it. Sure, you could program some sort of log system to output everything that was updated and that problem would be fixed. But I am just much more satisisfied with typing it in command line and wouldn't really bother with such tools. Besides, I manually update every friday, why use some tool for something I can already do myself?

Although an "You system is outdated" message could be usful in a way. Simply code a bash script that displays a message is the xosd program. Walla, that's done. Infact, if anyone actually wants this I'll do the scripting for you and make it. Simple:P

deficite · 2006-06-17 03:55:51

ibrahim wrote:

Komodo wrote:
when you've finished patting yourself on the back for being a hostility-inspiring dillwad, ibrahim, perhaps you ought to read again the OP's post.
perhaps injecting your statements with humour rather than insults would give you a warmer reception, and make you less likely to seem like a willy.
Wait, so is name calling (which i didn't do by the way) bad or not?
Well is my face red because after all, nobody took the OP to be recommending automatic upgrades with no intervention
or did they...
deficite wrote:
I think it'd be fine if Arch had an accepted GUI for pacman. Fortunately, we don't. Guys, how hard is it to run a "pacman -Syu" every once in a while? If anything, you could schedule a cron job to update all your packages once a week (not something I'd like to do....I like to get out of X before I update anything related to it)

It's great how people can totally misunderstand a post. I was saying that if one was lazy they COULD schedule a cron job but I wouldn't do it. It was more of just me throwing something out there, not necessarily saying "A cron job does the same exact thing as you are attempting to do, roflol, n00b, why don't you go back to n00bland with your little Linspire n00b friends". I was also NOT endorsing the use of a cron job for system updates. In fact, I said in a later post how I felt that this project wouldn't save any time at all because you'd still have to open up a console and type "pacman -Syu" either way.

Now, if we can stop bickering about he said she said drama BS please? I vented because I hate it when people play little games when they get angry because some people have different opinions. You have basically stated that you intended no name calling (although you WERE name calling). I'll take that as a psuedo-apology if you will, and forget this whole thing. I only request that you word things a little more carefully in the future ibrahim. I've done the same thing on this same board in the past before as well.

Komodo · 2006-06-21 11:26:39

Crinos wrote:

It's hardly going into the OMG BLOATED MAY AS WELL BE UBUNTU territory many people make it out to be...
It's hardly turning Arch into Mandriva...

It's also 'hardly' KISS, is it? Which is the Arch way, as stated in the wiki. The fact is, saying yes to one thing like this means there's no reason to say yes to a whole lot of other unnecessary crap, which does eventually lead to bloatedness.

Mr Green · 2006-06-21 14:08:00

I'm more likely to say create the thing & let users who want it use it ....

for me a term & pacman are all I need .....

iphitus · 2006-06-22 07:16:44

it's a tray icon. you're arguing over 24x24px of complete choice.

it's not going to be included in the base and would only be installable if you chose to install it. Like nearly every other package out there.

Komodo, get over it mate. It's a tiny little icon that will sit in the tray, and change when there's updates. And then run pacman -Syu when it's clicked. Heck, it's so basic I could write it in pygtk in less than an hour.

If you think that's endangering the state of KISS in Arch, then go take a look at the CUPS webconfig. Oh my god. It's easy. We should disable it and force users to edit the config file.

KDE and GNOME have countless GUI configs, we've got full pacman GUI's, and the sky isnt falling -- but this tray icon will make it fall?

James

Mr Green · 2006-06-22 07:47:02

/me nods

whatever!

T-Dawg · 2006-06-22 21:24:06

Whateva! I do what I want!

Komodo · 2006-06-23 13:12:10

iphitus wrote:

Komodo, get over it mate. It's a tiny little icon that will sit in the tray, and change when there's updates. And then run pacman -Syu when it's clicked. Heck, it's so basic I could write it in pygtk in less than an hour.

There's no obstacle in my way to 'get over' iphitus; I'm in no way put-out by the suggestion made by the OP, I simply agree with Ibex that it should only be available as an optional package. The fact that an entire thread was constructed to discuss something that is as you yourself say, 'so basic', suggested to me that the intention was for inclusion in arch as standard. Who knows. I don't really care either way If people can use it then great, but IMO it shouldn't be a util included as default, because it's not the KISS way.

Perhaps if you re-read my posts with the assumption in mind that standard inclusion was intended, as I assumed when I wrote them, then you'll see my comments in a different light.

Mr Green · 2006-06-23 13:36:42

@Komodo chill out mate ....

look KISS and make up do not take what J. says to heart ....

Arch is what ever you want it to be .....

else we would all be running Gentoo ;-(

Arch Linux

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