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#1 2020-08-24 16:56:14

citsuac
Member
Registered: 2014-08-26
Posts: 17

Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

Context:

Upgraded recently, locked my computer to get coffee, came back and couldn't log in.

Tracked it down to the pam=1.4.0 upgrade and made a comment on this issue, suggesting that, while not a bug, it may be easier for everyone (users _and_ maintainers) if a news item is posted about this change.

https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/67641

The comment was immediately removed and I was banned from the bugtracker.

To my knowledge, I was not breaking the rules and was trying to add more context around why I think this should be a news item.

Ultimately, I'm just trying to help the community.  What's the deal?

I love Arch and I try to contribute the best I can following the rules outlined, but this just came out of left field.

What should I do?

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#2 2020-08-24 16:59:35

Trilby
Inspector Parrot
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 24,657
Website

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

citsuac wrote:

What should I do?

Email or PM the bugtracker staffer who banned you.  The public forum is the wrong venue for your concerns.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#3 2020-08-24 17:04:54

citsuac
Member
Registered: 2014-08-26
Posts: 17

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

How do I find out who banned me?  I only get an error saying "Error #23: User or group not available for login".

Edit: image removed at request.

Last edited by citsuac (2020-08-24 17:19:52)

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#4 2020-08-24 17:15:03

Trilby
Inspector Parrot
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 24,657
Website

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

That means your account has been disabled.  Apparently flyspray (the bug tracker software) does not have temp bans, but accounts can be disabled as noted here in a thread with the same login error:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 7#p1902357

You can still see the ticket though, and you can see the staffer who closed it - so that'd be a good start as a point of contact.

Also, your image is too large for the forum and really provides no information that wouldn't be better presented as text (and actual error message).  Please remove the image.

Last edited by Trilby (2020-08-24 17:15:45)


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#5 2020-08-24 17:23:10

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 29,068
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Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

So you don't read pacman's output and you think a news item will help you?


Arch + dwm   •   Mercurial repos  •   Surfraw

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#6 2020-08-24 17:33:32

citsuac
Member
Registered: 2014-08-26
Posts: 17

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

You can still see the ticket though, and you can see the staffer who closed it - so that'd be a good start as a point of contact.

Also, your image is too large for the forum and really provides no information that wouldn't be better presented as text (and actual error message).  Please remove the image.

Done.

I linked the wrong ticket fwiw.  This is the ticket to which I meant to refer: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/67636?p … string=pam

In any case, it seems like I ought to message tpowa or scimmia?

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#7 2020-08-24 17:51:09

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 24,657
Website

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

Well that is a different situation.  Multiple warnings were given that further hijacking would result in accounts being disabled.  So I'd not bother contacting anyone for a while - I'd say give it a week, then ask if you can be reinstated.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#8 2020-08-24 18:13:36

citsuac
Member
Registered: 2014-08-26
Posts: 17

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

Yep.  Suppose I deserve it for not reading the whole thread.  Still kinda disappointed in the community response to this issue.  Even if it's not _the way_, I think there would be a lot less moderation necessary if a little more discretion was considered.  But I guess it's not my place to speak so :shrug:

Thanks Trilby for the polite direction and not immediately eviscerating me for trying to help / find help.

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#9 2020-08-24 18:14:14

Scimmia
Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2012-09-01
Posts: 8,065

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

So let's recap:

You see that the ticket that covers your issue is closed.
You post in a totally different ticket, mentioning that you can't comment on the correct ticket because it's closed.
That ticket has warnings that hijacking will result in accounts being disabled.

And then you're surprised that you got banned? Seems something any logically person would have expected.

EdIt: I wasn't trying to pile on here, I was composing this reply while the OP made his last response. I'm glad everything is cleared up.

Last edited by Scimmia (2020-08-24 21:09:17)

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#10 2020-08-24 20:54:44

eschwartz
Trusted User/Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 3,773

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

Scimmia wrote:

You post in a totally different ticket, mentioning that you can't comment on the correct ticket because it's closed.

@citsuac,

This right here makes it sound difficult to interpret the suggestion in good faith. If you *know* and acknowledge that the place where you're commenting is not an appropriate venue, then that's a lot more actionable as a cause for suspending/banning your account.

Given you also mentioned on Reddit that you regard this as a form of "civil disobedience", I get the feeling that you consider Arch to be an evil autocracy administering the jack-booted heels of oppression, to which it is your civic duty to do your best to gum up the works and graffiti your protests anywhere that users might see it? This is an entirely unfortunate mindset to have about the situation, especially because if you're wrong then you just end up being a jerk to everyone.

It's also exactly the kind of situation where one is prone to getting banned/arrested/etc. no matter what, and only time can tell if they were a martyr for the cause of justified rebellion or actually deserving of the consequences.

tl;dr maybe tone down on the "civil disobedience" and "I was banned for stating an opinion" rhetoric, and next time don't intentionally graffiti the wrong bug report but rather bring up the topic as a community discussion point on the forum or mailing list.

The bugtracker is not a venue for community discussion, and to be perfectly honest, it's not much of a venue for "discussion" to begin with. It is software for the tracking of a bug report lifecycle, optimized to convey metadata such as category, individual assigned to the fix, and open/closed status plus fixed version. Comments are only intended to be viable for the purpose of updating the ticket with new information relevant to the initial report, and, as you've noticed, it explicitly locks the comment functionality on closed issues. There is NO organic, freeform discussion flow, and it is supremely lacking in any form of moderation tools necessary to provide one.

Again, it's a ticketing system, not a debate forum. It's not exactly unheard of for comments to be ruthlessly deleted merely because they distract from the comments which  contain useful information for the debugging process, much less comments that are completely offtopic. And there's no concept of splitting comments into their own "thread" like a forum.


Managing AUR repos The Right Way -- aurpublish (now a standalone tool)

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#11 2020-08-24 21:37:47

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 24,657
Website

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

eschwartz wrote:

I get the feeling that you consider Arch to be an evil autocracy administering the jack-booted heels of oppression

Of course, not that I agree, but it shouldn't have been hard to get that feeling.  The OP stated as much here, in much less inflammatory terms:

citsuac wrote:

Still kinda disappointed in the community response to this issue.  Even if it's not _the way_, I think there would be a lot less moderation necessary if a little more discretion was considered.  But I guess it's not my place to speak so :shrug

I completely disagree with citsuac on this point, but he was not trying to hide or be sneaky with his dissenting view.  Nor did he use the inflammatory language you (eschwartz) characterize it as.

Someone saying "Hey, I'm not fond of aspects A and B of this community, can we consider changing them" should be allowed.  In this case the response might well be "No, A and B are justified and necessary" and the original complainant may just not understand the reasoning (yet).  But this exchange wouldn't really be characterized with references to evil autocracy or jack-boots.


Our entire community does indeed have proactive moderators.  I think this is not only good, but necessary.  I have no doubt that it is one of the primary reasons this community continues to thrive while so many other online communities fizzle out.  A clear set or guidelines and strict maintenance of them seem to be essential for the longevity of online communities.  But they still can be a shot to the gut of someone new to the community.  At that point the person confronted with their violation of the community guidelines has three choices as I see it 1) shutdown in a form of helplessness or depression, 2) Run away and tell everyone else how horrible the community is, or 3) stick with it and ask questions like "What's the deal?" and "What should I do?"

We see the second reaction regularly.  The arch community has a negative reputation in some circles due to some people going for option two.  The first option is hard to assess: by definition, we wouldn't see it; it almost certainly happens, and that's unfortunate.  I don't know if it can be avoided while maintaining the level of strigency needed to maintain a community.  The third turns out to be not so common - but those two quoted questions are right from the OPs post.

Now, I have no idea what else the OP is doing - eschartz, you mentioned redit activity - the OP could very well be reacting as a 2.5 (a mix of 2 and 3).  But I'm all for assessing membership in the forum community based on activity on the forum, and certainly there will be a bit of self-fulfilling professy in treating the OP as if they are more option 2 or more option 3.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#12 2020-08-24 22:10:53

eschwartz
Trusted User/Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 3,773

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comm … r/g2poooo/

Anyway, I have no problem with asking such questions on the forum or mailing list (and the Arch Linux Team will see it in either place, and may be convinced). Conversely, on the bugtracker only one developer is guaranteed to see it even if it's posted to the right ticket.


Managing AUR repos The Right Way -- aurpublish (now a standalone tool)

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#13 2020-08-24 22:12:20

twelveeighty
Member
From: Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2011-09-04
Posts: 731

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

[OP forgot to merge their pacnew, blamed everyone but themselves, got upset when told so and then turned the drama up to 11 instead of learning the pacnew lesson and move on.]

I blame Reddit for this erosion of common sense. Only on Reddit can factually incorrect statements be upvoted to status of "correct" and hence opinion becomes more powerful than fact. Reddit is also saturated with the idea that everything is "the man" and each Redditor is "the underprivileged fighting the man". Left unchecked, these two combined will get humanity all killed one day.

I truly hope Arch will never give in to abiding to the loudest person in the room and keep its stance on being user-centric, not user-friendly. And take whatever is upvoted on Reddit at face value: the most popular opinion from people that want Arch to become something it is not: user-friendly.

By the way: I don't think OP will forget to merge pacnew files in the future.

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#14 2020-08-24 22:16:15

jasonwryan
Anarchist
From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 29,068
Website

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

twelveeighty: ♥


Arch + dwm   •   Mercurial repos  •   Surfraw

Registered Linux User #482438

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#15 2020-08-24 22:41:54

GaKu999
Member
From: US/Eastern
Registered: 2020-06-21
Posts: 530

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

jasonwryan wrote:

twelveeighty: ♥

Indeed, some subreddits are madlands lately, not that you’ll find much activity on my account tongue

Btw updating and locking is quite a bad idea...
I knew that a pam update was coming since it was on [testing] and some folks already complained about the issue before it became spam in the forum...

But when you look at checkupdates saying “pam is updatiiing!” or something equally important in your system, watch the output from start to end...and just to make sure, muscle train sudo pacdiff after each update if you don’t trust yourself to pay attention to a pacnew popping out on the output...

In fact even pacman makes it visible that pam is updating...looking out while updating is really a bad idea...I just can’t stress that enough...


My reposSome snippets

Heisenberg might have been here.

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#16 2020-08-24 22:45:09

Trilby
Inspector Parrot
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 24,657
Website

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

GaKu999 wrote:

But when you look at checkupdates saying “pam is updatiiing!” or something equally important in your system, watch the output from start to end.

FTFY


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#17 2020-08-24 23:12:46

GaKu999
Member
From: US/Eastern
Registered: 2020-06-21
Posts: 530

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

Trilby wrote:
GaKu999 wrote:

But when you look at checkupdates saying “pam is updatiiing!” or something equally important in your system, watch the output from start to end.

FTFY

You made my brain lag for a while, I didn’t know the meaning of FTFY. lol

But true indeed.
Still I have to opt to make it obvious the why of the actions lately, otherwise OPs just doesn’t bother to read the links or pay attention...

In an ideal world that would be enough, but after 3 updates without problems some people asume each update is a breeze that doesn’t require attention, and things like this happens...

I remember when I saw someone doing pacman -Sy as a cron job, guess that happens when something gets popular, and there’s to many guides on the internet... (yes YouTube I’m looking at you!)
Barely been 2 years using Arch and wifi-menu it’s deprecated now in favor of iwctl (or wpa_cli if you know your stuff tongue).


My reposSome snippets

Heisenberg might have been here.

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#18 2020-08-24 23:23:49

WorMzy
Forum Moderator
From: Scotland
Registered: 2010-06-16
Posts: 10,076
Website

Re: Banned from bugtracker for suggesting a news item

Okay, I think this thread has run its course now. I'm going to close it before it descends further into bikeshedding.


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