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#1 2006-10-26 09:44:58

fgrano
Member
Registered: 2006-10-25
Posts: 29

ubuntuguide for arch

I tried arch, tried to get everything up and running. I couldn't.

Install went fine, not sure what repos I should use. Installed openbox & xorg using the wiki, couldn't change gtk theme, fonts were horrible. Installed firefox -> ugh that looks ugly! Tried to install thunar -> installed -> wouldn't run because libdbus apparently wasn't the right version. Wanted to install pcmanfm but couldn't find it in the repos (?). Gave up.

Although it didn't quite work out I was very impressed with the speed and the "cleanness" of the system. If there was something like ubuntuguide for arch, that actually worked, I'd be back in no time at all.  I need a system that doesn't take days to setup for a newbie, I need to get things done, but I'd very much like to use arch. Is there someone working at something like this, if not then why?

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#2 2006-10-26 10:56:05

zack
Member
From: Portsmouth, UK
Registered: 2006-09-11
Posts: 32

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

I've been looking for a way to 'give back' to arch, so I could give a go at creating an 'archguide' if it is really needed. I agree when I was new to arch that it was confusing, and the wiki install is kind of outdated and stuff, but having linux experience I got through wink

If there is more interest in an 'archguide' I could code one up in php and write the basics out, and some articles, maybe people could help submit articles too. We'll see.

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#3 2006-10-26 11:54:44

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Just a note to your fonts problem: fontconfig had a bug that affected only new installations in the last few weeks. It has been fixed and all fonts in gtk-apps (and thus openbox and firefox) shouldn't look like "times new roman" anymore...

You can change the gtk theme with gtk-theme-switch2 (in the repos)


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#4 2006-10-26 12:19:54

Mr.Elendig
#archlinux@freenode channel op
From: The intertubes
Registered: 2004-11-07
Posts: 3,742

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Install gtk-chtheme for all your gtk2 themechange needs.


Evil #archlinux@freenode channel op and general support dude.
. files on github, Screenshots, Random pics and the rest

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#5 2006-10-26 12:44:34

fgrano
Member
Registered: 2006-10-25
Posts: 29

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Well I think it would attract quite a few new archers. I know ubuntuguide is very popular!

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#6 2006-10-26 13:16:15

tomk
Forum Fellow
From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,839

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

An alternative approach would be to update existing wiki articles where required, and add new ones if you think they're needed. That would be my preference.

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#7 2006-10-26 13:27:57

fgrano
Member
Registered: 2006-10-25
Posts: 29

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Why not do both, although I agree that if the wiki was up to date and there would be an article linking to various articles about the most common things a new arch user might want/need to do in order to start using their newly installed system, that would work aswell.

Actually it would almost be the same thing.

Making a archguide shouldn't be very hard, one could take the ubuntuguide as a base and edit it to make it work in arch.

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#8 2006-10-26 13:29:07

fk
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2006-04-29
Posts: 524

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Hm I don't see that Arch need a ubuntu Guide, I think it's better to support the existing wiki


Have you tried to turn it off and on again?

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#9 2006-10-26 14:03:18

Snarkout
Member
Registered: 2005-11-13
Posts: 542

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

It would be nice if the wiki had a better frontend for finding the subject you're looking for.  Right now it's kind of hunt-and-peck to find subject matter.  I'm pretty sure there's a nearly identical thread to this already going though.


Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.
-Albert Einstein

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#10 2006-10-26 16:16:12

gradgrind
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2005-10-06
Posts: 921

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Snarkout wrote:

It would be nice if the wiki had a better frontend for finding the subject you're looking for.  Right now it's kind of hunt-and-peck to find subject matter.  I'm pretty sure there's a nearly identical thread to this already going though.

Indeed there is, and recently there have been a number of others, so I guess there must be quite some interest. The real question is where are the people to actually do it? I don't think it would be technically very difficult (the solution of updating the wiki pages and maybe adding a new index page seems to me the easiest and most attractive), but it would need some time, apparently a rare commodity nowadays ...

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#11 2006-10-26 16:47:12

dolby
Member
From: 1992
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 1,581

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

i dont think that anyone of the existing users involved with arch for quite a while actually wants a guide. if that wasnt the case there would be one already. ive been using arch for ~3 months now and i know i dont need one. the wiki suits my needs. afaik noone is preventing someone from writing one and hosting it in his own webspace.
btw the ubuntuguide is at some points just rediculous imo.
eg

How to install azureus

sudo apt-get azureus

no arch doesnt need that


There shouldn't be any reason to learn more editor types than emacs or vi -- mg (1)
[You learn that sarcasm does not often work well in international forums.  That is why we avoid it. -- ewaller (arch linux forum moderator)

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#12 2006-10-26 17:09:54

fgrano
Member
Registered: 2006-10-25
Posts: 29

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

dolby wrote:

i dont think that anyone of the existing users involved with arch for quite a while actually wants a guide. if that wasnt the case there would be one already. ive been using arch for ~3 months now and i know i dont need one. the wiki suits my needs. afaik noone is preventing someone from writing one and hosting it in his own webspace.
btw the ubuntuguide is at some points just rediculous imo.
eg

How to install azureus

sudo apt-get azureus

no arch doesnt need that

I agree that that is taking it too far, but archguide doesn't have to be just like ubuntuguide...

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#13 2006-10-26 19:35:58

zack
Member
From: Portsmouth, UK
Registered: 2006-09-11
Posts: 32

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

If I were ever to write an 'archguide' it would be at the approval of the devs, and it certainly wouldn't hold your hand as much as ubuntu does. You learn nothing copying and pasting commands into the terminal.

I have the time to do it, this weekend because the clocks go back I have all afternoon monday-friday to spend on trivial things, such as phantasy star universe and websites tongue, If. There is enough interest, and a way to do it properly. I think I will just spend my time updating wiki pages.

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#14 2006-10-26 20:33:08

Nnyan
Member
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 22

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

total noob here but doesn't this boild down to the fact that the wiki is cumbersome for noobs and out of date in many areas?

To me the most troubling aspect of this discussion is that one could walk away with the impression that the Arch community has neglected its documentation/wiki.  Any way just my 2 cents.

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#15 2006-10-30 22:17:08

Mikko777
Member
From: Suomi, Finland
Registered: 2006-10-30
Posts: 837

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Well i'm a nub and didn't have any (arch spesific) problems when i installed this great distro a week ago smile

Altho I started with Gentoo bout 6 months ago, took about a month to get it working, then gave up... Because the constant compiling was just horrible.

Then came Ubuntu and what a great distro it was, system was up and running with all programs i'd ever need in 3 hours smile 2bad it was really hard to understand "under the hood" and slow and bloated.

So switched to arch and i think this is the last distro i'll ever need to try ^^

But the wiki really needs some tweaking, its good informationwise and articles are just detailed enough but the layout is horrible, so i kinda ended up reading the whole thingy hmm

summasummarum no need for a step by step guide but a clean up-todate wiki... YES.

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#16 2006-10-30 22:26:18

fgrano
Member
Registered: 2006-10-25
Posts: 29

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

If someone wants to write an archguide (in the spirit of ubuntuguide) the admin of ubuntuguide.org and easylinux.info said we would be welcome to use those wikis as well. Contact me by email and I'll tell you more: fgrano(nospam)@(nospam)gmail.com remove "(nospam)"

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#17 2006-10-30 23:07:13

Dusty
Schwag Merchant
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
Website

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

We're in the process of revamping the wiki, as a community effort. One of the tasks I've listed is an ArchLinux guide, similar to what you request. This will simply be another page in the wiki, though I suspect it will be an important page. It will link to existing pages and also contain new info, possibly even info ported from the ubuntuguides.  This is still in early phases, as we are cleaning up the wiki first, but please feel welcome to join the discussion!

http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=26508

Dusty

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#18 2007-01-07 07:42:09

IDK
Member
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 25

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

I used ubuntu for two months and I learned nothing doing the cut and paste thing.  When I switched over to arch I did have a few problems with a luks install (GRUB wouldn't install, so I gave up) the wiki didn't seem to cover it.  Although after some time learning and using the wiki to get me started I founds myself up and running pretty quick.  Thank you for everyones contributions to the wiki and the helpful advice on the forum.  Sometimes it's the community that makes or breaks a distro and I've come across nothing but helpful non noob flaming arch users.


Linux box: Toshiba Pentium M 512RAM 80HD
Gaming: Sager AMD X2 2GRAM 120G RAID 7800GTX
Firewall: Old 700mhz running PFSense
PDA: Sharp Zaurus 5500 OPIE

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#19 2007-01-07 19:04:27

ibrahim
Member
Registered: 2006-02-18
Posts: 53

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Mikko777 wrote:

Then came Ubuntu and what a great distro it was, system was up and running with all programs i'd ever need in 3 hours smile 2bad it was really hard to understand "under the hood" and slow and bloated.

What specifically was "hard to understand "under the hood""? I don't use ubuntu myself but I'd be surprised to find there was anything you couldn't do with the cli.

IDK wrote:

I used ubuntu for two months and I learned nothing doing the cut and paste thing.  When I switched over to arch I did have a few problems with a luks install (GRUB wouldn't install, so I gave up) the wiki didn't seem to cover it.  Although after some time learning and using the wiki to get me started I founds myself up and running pretty quick.

Maybe I'm misreading this but you seem to be implying that ubuntu's documentation is poor becuase you personally were too lazy to actually asertain the meaning of the commands you were mindlessly pasting in. Wouldn't that be a shortcoming on your part?

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#20 2007-01-07 20:33:55

picpak
Member
Registered: 2006-12-02
Posts: 89

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

There is a bit of an 'archguide' here:

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pos … ation_Tips

Perhaps we can work on that.


Regards,
Picpak

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#21 2007-01-07 21:37:33

IDK
Member
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 25

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

Ubuntu has great documentation, I learned some basics like what a respiratory is but most things were done with a GUI and I prefer using a command line since I tend to learn more that way.  I can't remember one instance where I had to edit a text file in ubuntu.


Linux box: Toshiba Pentium M 512RAM 80HD
Gaming: Sager AMD X2 2GRAM 120G RAID 7800GTX
Firewall: Old 700mhz running PFSense
PDA: Sharp Zaurus 5500 OPIE

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#22 2007-01-08 03:39:29

sokuban
Member
Registered: 2006-11-11
Posts: 406

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

But in ubuntu you can edit text files and do things by the commandline. (I've done it! On some flavours of ubuntu they don't have all the admin tools, like Kubuntu doesn't have the networking stuff.)

Though I'll admit, there isn't any nice rc.conf for you but it is still possible.

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#23 2007-01-08 15:44:15

rbrownclown
Member
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 125

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

I usually have to edit some config files in a fresh install of Ubuntu.  Xorg, Fstab, Mplayer, etc.

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#24 2007-01-08 16:40:29

stmok
Member
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2006-11-19
Posts: 72

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

fgrano wrote:

I need a system that doesn't take days to setup for a newbie, I need to get things done, but I'd very much like to use arch.

Then the goals of Arch Linux and you (as the user) are not on the same page.

You are after convenience and ease of use...But Arch Linux isn't aimed for that audience.

Arch Linux is delibrately set this way such that you learn and appreciate Linux in a semi-traditional way. (If you really want to get into Linux, you should try "Linux From Scratch"). Distros like Arch, Slackware and Gentoo has taught me alot about Linux. (I understand why they have a package manager, and see the appreciation of such a tool).

One analogy is this...

Ubuntu and OpenSUSE are like a pre-built caravans. Everything is thrown in by default...Even if you don't need some of the stuff. (except a few things you need to add-on yourself like codecs, etc).

Arch is like giving you the chasis of a caravan (assuming you start with just a "base install"), and you build it yourself. Choose what you want and don't want. The tools are there, and there are basic instructions for the hard parts. But if you don't know how to use a rivet gun, blow torch for welding, etc...Don't bother, this isn't for you.

fgrano wrote:

Is there someone working at something like this, if not then why?

I've got my own guide that I've written up by taking my own notes by hand. It allows me to set up an Arch Linux box for desktop use under an hour. (I've done research on why you should do something and what the commands mean...Not just "blind fire" nonsense).

And that's a key point...Arch Linux is in such a way that the person using it must take the journey themselves. They must learn, experiment and UNDERSTAND.

Guides like the ubuntuguide don't teach you the "Why do I do that?" and "What does that stuff mean?". Its promoting a behaviour pioneered by Windows.

This is why there isn't a "hold your hand to the toilet and wipe you butt" guide for Arch Linux. There are merely snippets in wikis, forums, and the install guide to get you through some of the aspects.

The point is to promote some traditional Linux behaviour.

That is, you learn to research, experiment, and do things yourselves. If you run into trouble, you learn to post as much useful details as possible. Not crap like: providing little or no details and saying something like "I can't get this to work, please help".

Personally, I hate distros like Ubuntu, in the perspective that it doesn't teach the user anything. ie: Convenience for the sake of knowledge. (BAD! BAD! BAD!)

So what happens if they run into trouble? Wait until someone more experienced tells them the exact steps to solve a problem? What about security issues? Doesn't convenience cost security? (As clearly demonstrated by the complete lack of knowledge of the majority of Windows users, and the rise of the US$10 Billion dollar security industry).

Thus, it doesn't result in the user being self-sufficient and independent! (Which is one of the aspects of Linux...As you grow more experienced with it, you have more control, making it more exact in meeting your needs).


If you're after convenience with as little effort as possible, don't use Arch. Use something like DreamLinux or VectorLinux. They're much less bloated than Ubuntu.

If you want to learn, explore, etc...Arch could be a distro for you.


The most important thing the hacker community does is write better code. Our deeds are the best propaganda we have. -Eric S. Raymond

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#25 2007-01-08 17:03:33

Dusty
Schwag Merchant
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
Website

Re: ubuntuguide for arch

stmok wrote:
fgrano wrote:

I need a system that doesn't take days to setup for a newbie, I need to get things done, but I'd very much like to use arch.

Then the goals of Arch Linux and you (as the user) are not on the same page.

You are after convenience and ease of use...But Arch Linux isn't aimed for that audience.

In many ways, I disagree. I use Arch because for me, it is convenient and easy to use. Its the best distro for me to get things done. On the other hand, it also doesn't take days for me to set up, I can have an Arch system up and running doing everything I need in about half an hour. Its different for newbies. For newbies, Arch is a great distro for learning, as you suggest.

Dusty

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