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#1 2022-06-13 10:23:40

princemoot
Member
Registered: 2022-06-13
Posts: 6

Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

Hi

I wanted to first of all write that the arch linux team has obviously done a wonderful job creating the wiki and step by step of instructions, with great detail, on how to install Arch Linux.

My question was for some people like my friends who are technically not as astute in technology but would like Arch and to learn to use it, or those in my life who face legitimate mental disorders causing them to be unable to follow through, would it be considered "haram" to use a third-party *installer* like Arch Linux GUI Installer and then say ask for support on arch related topics like pacman or how to use Arch here in bbs.archlinux.org? Or would it be *OKAY* to have the install done that way and only address questions pertaining to issues unrelated to the install process in the Arch forums?

I am concerned about this because this seems to be a potential way to keep the community "closed off" and only for those who installed Arch Linux like we did - following the guide on archlinux, when there are certainly legitimate reasons one might want to use one of these neew Calamares installer.

Regards

Last edited by princemoot (2022-06-13 10:29:43)

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#2 2022-06-13 10:45:35

dogknowsnx
Member
Registered: 2021-04-12
Posts: 261

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

To be blunt, what you're asking doesn't make sense imho. If you're not capable of following the installation guide - for whatever reason - you won't be able to tackle issues by yourself in the future. If you decide to be the one helping others to install arch, you would also have the 'responsibility' to assist in maintaining an arch system...

Last edited by dogknowsnx (2022-06-13 10:46:41)


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#3 2022-06-13 11:01:31

princemoot
Member
Registered: 2022-06-13
Posts: 6

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

dogknowsnx wrote:

To be blunt, what you're asking doesn't make sense imho. If you're not capable of following the installation guide - for whatever reason - you won't be able to tackle issues by yourself in the future. If you decide to be the one helping others to install arch, you would also have the 'responsibility' to assist in maintaining an arch system...

Seems to be a very cold and callous response, I am sorry to say. "for whatever reason" could be something trivial for you but for the sufferer could be how they try to manage their life through a severe attention disorder etc..  I never also mentioned about helping others install arch? On the contrary I said this community could continue to provide support to people who have arch *except* installation related problems in the case they've used a third party installer, which if you think of it even doing it manually is third party and not done by arch so I don't see the fuss besides the elitism that comes with "BtW I UsE ArCH".

If I do provide a person a bunch of written steps from the arch wiki on how to install arch, then I am not liable to provide them assistance in maintaining the system - no one is. But the arch community as a whole should because it is still Arch Linux. Shame on you for your narcissism and elitism. Sorry to see the first display on this forum to be so toxic.

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#4 2022-06-13 11:05:32

dogknowsnx
Member
Registered: 2021-04-12
Posts: 261

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

Please read my response again - there's nothing judgemental in it, but you're already on the defense...


Wayland.

"We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Maynard James Keenan

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#5 2022-06-13 11:13:09

sydneyj
Member
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 10

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

Arch Wiki wrote:

Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.

These forums are for Arch Linux x86_64 ONLY.

Not Artix, or Apricity, or Manjaro, or any of the "easy Arch installers", nor Arch-ARM; nothing other than vanilla 64-bit Arch Linux. Ask those communities for support.
If you have installed Arch, please read the rules before posting. README: Forum Rules.

We have recently implemented a (hated) guided installer that should be sufficient for any diligent user to install Arch.  There are more than 100 other distributions for the new or impaired user.

That 'btw' meme is from kiddies on Reddit, and is not seen here.  Please go somewhere else with your smarmy elitism charges.

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#6 2022-06-13 11:14:18

JoeyCorleone
Member
Registered: 2022-01-22
Posts: 30

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

Arch Linux is a versatile, and simple distribution designed to fit the needs of the competent Linux® user.

If you were to install Arch Linux for a user not familiar with Linux, it would be your responsibility to maintain the system.

Actually, it boils down to this: if your user wants to learn his or her way around Linux, this a great place to be with excellent documentation.

On the other hand, if your user just wants a working system and does *not* like fiddling around with a broken system, there are better distributions like Linux Mint which aim to offer a user-friendly experience.

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#7 2022-06-13 11:14:30

Raynman
Member
Registered: 2011-10-22
Posts: 1,436

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

There are plenty of distros and people should pick one that suits them. That "btw is use Arch" stuff is ridiculous, but exactly that kind of nonsense seems to be a common reason to want an "easy Arch installer". The Arch way doesn't appeal to them, but they want Arch anyway because it makes them look/feel good.

Maybe look at EndeavourOS instead. Arch also provides archinstall now, though I still don't understand why; it doesn't seem particularly more mature/better documented/less buggy than other alternatives, but it's being worked on.

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#8 2022-06-13 11:21:04

schard
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From: Hannover
Registered: 2016-05-06
Posts: 1,375
Website

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

I don't think that Arch's foremost goal is to provide accessibility. Though the infamous Installer was forced down the community's throat based on the argument to improve it, there are plenty Linux distributions out there that have reliable and proven installers with way better accessibility support. Your friend would be wise to use one of those, if installing Arch Linux is not within their capabilities.
I am steadfast of the opinion, that barrier free solutions should exist for people who need them. But not every solution must be barrier free.


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#9 2022-06-13 11:26:04

princemoot
Member
Registered: 2022-06-13
Posts: 6

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

OKAY got it. The message is that Arch is for competent linux users or those who can and are able to learn more. Despite its great features, it isn't meant to be accessible to the general public, just whose knowledge of linux or ability to follow a relatively technical install guide is at par.
Those who want linux and want an easy to install linux should just stick with PopOs or Mint etc. No elitism here. Makes sense.

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#10 2022-06-13 11:26:51

princemoot
Member
Registered: 2022-06-13
Posts: 6

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

schard wrote:

I don't think that Arch's foremost goal is to provide accessibility. Though the infamous Installer was forced down the community's throat based on the argument to improve it, there are plenty Linux distributions out there that have reliable and proven installers with way better accessibility support. Your friend would be wise to use one of those, if installing Arch Linux is not within their capabilities.
I am steadfast of the opinion, that barrier free solutions should exist for people who need them. But not every solution must be barrier free.

I am steadfast of the opinion that if you were dying you wouldn't deserve any aid.

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#11 2022-06-13 11:27:48

princemoot
Member
Registered: 2022-06-13
Posts: 6

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

Raynman wrote:

There are plenty of distros and people should pick one that suits them. That "btw is use Arch" stuff is ridiculous, but exactly that kind of nonsense seems to be a common reason to want an "easy Arch installer". The Arch way doesn't appeal to them, but they want Arch anyway because it makes them look/feel good.

Maybe look at EndeavourOS instead. Arch also provides archinstall now, though I still don't understand why; it doesn't seem particularly more mature/better documented/less buggy than other alternatives, but it's being worked on.

No they want it for pacman and aur. Simple. Quit ret. not to know this being such a knowledgeable linux loser.

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#12 2022-06-13 11:29:47

princemoot
Member
Registered: 2022-06-13
Posts: 6

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

JoeyCorleone wrote:

Arch Linux is a versatile, and simple distribution designed to fit the needs of the competent Linux® user.

If you were to install Arch Linux for a user not familiar with Linux, it would be your responsibility to maintain the system.

Actually, it boils down to this: if your user wants to learn his or her way around Linux, this a great place to be with excellent documentation.

On the other hand, if your user just wants a working system and does *not* like fiddling around with a broken system, there are better distributions like Linux Mint which aim to offer a user-friendly experience.


Only argument here which makes sense and doesn't use ad hominem. It's true it would be the responsibility of the user to maintain the system, but you are wrong where you say "for a user not familiar with linux" because the responsibility would be there for even those familiar obviously.

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#13 2022-06-13 11:31:20

schard
Member
From: Hannover
Registered: 2016-05-06
Posts: 1,375
Website

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

Your ad-hominem arguments are not contributing to a conclusion of this thread.
You can put mandatory support wheels on motorcycles to make them usable by car drivers.
But it would render their purpose useless and you would enrage many cyclists with it.
Can't car drivers just drive their cars instead of complaining about their disability to use motorcycles to get from A to B?

Edit:

princemoot wrote:

I am steadfast of the opinion that if you were dying you wouldn't deserve any aid.

princemoot wrote:

Only argument here which makes sense and doesn't use ad hominem.

Enough said.

Last edited by schard (2022-06-13 11:36:07)


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#14 2022-06-13 12:20:06

WorMzy
Forum Moderator
From: Scotland
Registered: 2010-06-16
Posts: 10,765
Website

Re: Installation for new users or those who are facing diabilities

princemoot, please take some time to re-read the code of conduct, paying particular attention to Respect other users, No Trolling.

I'm going to close this topic before it deteriorates further.


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