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#26 2007-09-27 01:58:21

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,189

Re: Wiki overhaul

eyolf wrote:

I also think most of the pages that are there, are good -- very good, even, with a good balance between "walkthrough" ("type this and this and this as root and press enter") and "knowledge base" ("type this and this and this because...").
BUT there is one exception: the wireless pages. They really, really need an overhaul.
I know, it has been said before, but that doesn't mean that it can't be said again.

QFT.
Well said. I would like to add this: When adding to the wiki, please include the "Why" as well as the "How". Invariably, the best documentation gives both a brief explanation of what is being done as well as the method(s) to accomplish it. smile

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#27 2007-09-27 02:41:48

Dusty
Schwag Merchant
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
Website

Re: Wiki overhaul

Its great to see all the interest in improving wiki articles, I really appreciate it. Now I'll be able to do a Linus and take all the credit for it. :-)

Thanks a lot guys, the contributions and discussions are all welcome.

Dusty

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#28 2007-09-27 11:51:18

Sekre
Member
From: The Rainy North
Registered: 2006-11-24
Posts: 116

Re: Wiki overhaul

wow, really great work guys !
I know loads of people will appreciate this greatly ( I know I will smile )

Although I have alot on my mind atm, I too shall try to help any way I can cool

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#29 2007-09-28 23:41:33

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,189

Re: Wiki overhaul

Dusty wrote:

Now I'll be able to do a Linus and take all the credit for it. :-)

You mean like:

PC Week: Give us the short history of Linux's development.

Torvalds: Basically, I invented it eight years ago.

The Linux kernel accounts for ~2% of the total source code of a typical GNU/Linux distro, whereas GNU accounts for about 28%..and of the kernel, Torvalds has coded less than 1% of it in its current state. wink

Last edited by Misfit138 (2007-10-07 21:15:35)

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#30 2007-10-01 19:59:41

Doehni
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-19
Posts: 175

Re: Wiki overhaul

Regarding the Main Page:
How about adding another link of the Beginners guide to the section "Getting and installing Arch"?
If you have a quick look at the page, you can just overread that link. And I think it is very helpful for Arch newbies.

Last edited by Doehni (2007-10-01 20:00:06)

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#31 2007-10-01 21:18:21

cucullus
Member
From: Moscow, Russia
Registered: 2007-07-07
Posts: 71

Re: Wiki overhaul

First of all we need a huge search field at the Main Page wink

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#32 2007-10-06 15:37:21

CocoAUS
Member
Registered: 2007-09-07
Posts: 60

Re: Wiki overhaul

Doehni wrote:

Regarding the Main Page:
How about adding another link of the Beginners guide to the section "Getting and installing Arch"?
If you have a quick look at the page, you can just overread that link. And I think it is very helpful for Arch newbies.

I think the Beginners' Guide needs an overhaul itself.  It's a great effort put forth by whoever did it, but it's old and outdated, often times unclear and ambiguous, and I'm not sure that the step-by-step process the author lays out is the best way to do things.  For newbies, for instance, I'm sure installing a DE is the first thing they want to do, whereas the guide treats it as an afterthought.

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#33 2007-10-06 15:52:22

MrWeatherbee
Member
Registered: 2007-08-01
Posts: 277

Re: Wiki overhaul

CocoAUS wrote:

I think the Beginners' Guide needs an overhaul itself.

I agree.

I never used it and don't ever recommend it as the first source of information to potential Arch users.

I prefer Pudge's guide:

http://home.comcast.net/~pudges-place/a … page1.html

Even though Pudge's installation guide may suffer as well from some outdated material, it is a much better guide in my opinion. I think it provides a more thorough understanding of what an Arch Linux installation entails prior to actually doing it, and it definitely takes a lot of the mystery out of what will be encountered (because it provides screenshots of the process).

And of course, Pudge's guide gives higher priority to installation of the DE as you suggested, though it is definitely Gnome-centric.

Maybe some of the Pudge philosophy can be applied to fixing up the wiki article, but without the screenshots, I'm not sure how much better Pudge's guide actually is since I haven't referred to either in a while. Probably just a matter of preference. Any other conclusion would require a more pointed comparison, and I don't have time right now to do it. smile

Last edited by MrWeatherbee (2007-10-06 16:13:34)

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#34 2007-10-06 22:55:26

Cotton
Member
From: Cornwall, UK
Registered: 2004-09-17
Posts: 568

Re: Wiki overhaul

Misfit138 wrote:

The Linux kernel accounts for ~2% of the total source code of a typical GNU/Linux distro, whereas GNU accounts for about 28%..and of the kernel, Torvalds has coded less than 1% of it in its current state.

Yeah but that 1% is a potential single point failure wink

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#35 2007-10-07 21:15:00

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,189

Re: Wiki overhaul

MrWeatherbee wrote:

I'm not sure how much better Pudge's guide actually is since I haven't referred to either in a while. Probably just a matter of preference. Any other conclusion would require a more pointed comparison, and I don't have time right now to do it. smile

Try checking out the beginner's guide now, especially if you have not seen it in a while. I and others have spent a lot of time improving it. I have time as of late, so I throw quite a few hours of work into it every week. smile

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#36 2007-10-08 21:32:48

CocoAUS
Member
Registered: 2007-09-07
Posts: 60

Re: Wiki overhaul

I still think the Beginner's guide sucks.  A lot of the changes don't make sense, and seem to be worse than the more "beginner" information that was there before.  It's also too much of a mix between hand-holding and giving the beginner way too much information about stuff that likely won't affect them at all, or that they won't understand.  The biggest problem is the fact that it's still being built on the old guide, which is way too long, not well thought out, etc.

My suggestions:

  • Scrap the old guide completely and build anew

  • Focus on getting users into a usable desktop environment

  • Post explanations somewhere else and link to them

  • Cut down on the wordiness.  There's a book's worth of text in the guide, and barely half of it is needed.

  • Post exceptional circumstances somewhere else and link to them

  • Go out of your way to use precise in wording.  Too many people say "RTFM", but the manual is poorly written and confusing.

  • Separate suggestions and examples clearly from the rest of the guide, so that a user understands what is needed and what he can decide on his own

  • Leave the extras out.  As great as cpu frequency scaling might be, it's not at all necessary to get a beginner into a usable environment.

Last edited by CocoAUS (2007-10-08 21:38:21)

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#37 2007-10-09 02:09:03

toofishes
Developer
From: Chicago, IL
Registered: 2006-06-06
Posts: 602
Website

Re: Wiki overhaul

CocoAUS wrote:

I still think the Beginner's guide sucks.  A lot of the changes don't make sense, and seem to be worse than the more "beginner" information that was there before.  It's also too much of a mix between hand-holding and giving the beginner way too much information about stuff that likely won't affect them at all, or that they won't understand.  The biggest problem is the fact that it's still being built on the old guide, which is way too long, not well thought out, etc.

My suggestions:

  • Scrap the old guide completely and build anew

  • Focus on getting users into a usable desktop environment

  • Post explanations somewhere else and link to them

  • Cut down on the wordiness.  There's a book's worth of text in the guide, and barely half of it is needed.

  • Post exceptional circumstances somewhere else and link to them

  • Go out of your way to use precise in wording.  Too many people say "RTFM", but the manual is poorly written and confusing.

  • Separate suggestions and examples clearly from the rest of the guide, so that a user understands what is needed and what he can decide on his own

  • Leave the extras out.  As great as cpu frequency scaling might be, it's not at all necessary to get a beginner into a usable environment.

Go for it man, feel free to make the edits. You can start the guide as a subpage of your user page, and eventually move it to the real guide once you feel good about it.

On another note, I went though and deleted a bunch of the pages tonight that I thought should go and were marked with the template. If you guys see more out there, definitely mark them. However, I would encourage you if you are moving pages to at least set up a redirect to the new page, which is part of the reason I left the article about setting up the mouse. If anyone wants to fix that to be a redirect I'd appreciate it.

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#38 2007-10-09 03:46:20

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,189

Re: Wiki overhaul

toofishes wrote:
CocoAUS wrote:

I still think the Beginner's guide sucks.  A lot of the changes don't make sense, and seem to be worse than the more "beginner" information that was there before.  It's also too much of a mix between hand-holding and giving the beginner way too much information about stuff that likely won't affect them at all, or that they won't understand.  The biggest problem is the fact that it's still being built on the old guide, which is way too long, not well thought out, etc.

My suggestions:

  • Scrap the old guide completely and build anew

  • Focus on getting users into a usable desktop environment

  • Post explanations somewhere else and link to them

  • Cut down on the wordiness.  There's a book's worth of text in the guide, and barely half of it is needed.

  • Post exceptional circumstances somewhere else and link to them

  • Go out of your way to use precise in wording.  Too many people say "RTFM", but the manual is poorly written and confusing.

  • Separate suggestions and examples clearly from the rest of the guide, so that a user understands what is needed and what he can decide on his own

  • Leave the extras out.  As great as cpu frequency scaling might be, it's not at all necessary to get a beginner into a usable environment.

Go for it man, feel free to make the edits. You can start the guide as a subpage of your user page, and eventually move it to the real guide once you feel good about it.

On another note, I went though and deleted a bunch of the pages tonight that I thought should go and were marked with the template. If you guys see more out there, definitely mark them. However, I would encourage you if you are moving pages to at least set up a redirect to the new page, which is part of the reason I left the article about setting up the mouse. If anyone wants to fix that to be a redirect I'd appreciate it.

This is hard to believe. We get many compliments all the time on the Newbie subforum about how good the guide is, from Arch Linux beginners.
I am quite disappointed that the huge effort on Freigeist's part, to start the entry, and the countless hours the community, including myself, have spent updating it could be scrapped.

Last edited by Misfit138 (2007-10-09 04:49:03)

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#39 2007-10-09 05:48:06

CocoAUS
Member
Registered: 2007-09-07
Posts: 60

Re: Wiki overhaul

Misfit138 wrote:

This is hard to believe. We get many compliments all the time on the Newbie subforum about how good the guide is, from Arch Linux beginners.
I am quite disappointed that the huge effort on Freigeist's part, to start the entry, and the countless hours the community, including myself, have spent updating it could be scrapped.

I think you're talking about the Beginners' guide?  If so, I can understand it must suck to put a lot of effort into something only to see it disappear, but I think what matters most is not preserving your efforts, but producing an ideal guide.  Not that your efforts have to go to waste--the information you used can certainly be used in producing a new guide, as well as in producing more wiki pages.

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#40 2007-10-09 06:37:09

Matt3o
Member
From: Firenze, Italy
Registered: 2007-09-13
Posts: 177

Re: Wiki overhaul

CocoAUS wrote:

I still think the Beginner's guide sucks.

Really... this is not the best way start arguing :-P

When I first installed Arch I was both a newbie to Arch and a newbie to linux. I agree that the beginners' guide is not perfect, but it worked. I was able to get a desktop environment up-n-running. So I can safely say that it doesn't suck.

CocoAUS wrote:

My suggestions:

  • Scrap the old guide completely and build anew

  • Focus on getting users into a usable desktop environment

  • Post explanations somewhere else and link to them

  • Cut down on the wordiness.  There's a book's worth of text in the guide, and barely half of it is needed.

  • Post exceptional circumstances somewhere else and link to them

  • Go out of your way to use precise in wording.  Too many people say "RTFM", but the manual is poorly written and confusing.

  • Separate suggestions and examples clearly from the rest of the guide, so that a user understands what is needed and what he can decide on his own

  • Leave the extras out.  As great as cpu frequency scaling might be, it's not at all necessary to get a beginner into a usable environment.

The bottom line seems to me: make it more schematic and straight to the point. Less chit-chat and more facts. I must admit that I agree, that's why I am doing a step-by-step guide --not intended to replace the beginner's guide-- I will present to the community in the next few days, I hope it could suffice where the beginner's guide lack.

Last edited by Matt3o (2007-10-09 06:38:26)

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#41 2007-10-09 18:25:30

cu3edweb
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2007-10-07
Posts: 291

Re: Wiki overhaul

I agree that it is long. But I used a lot of stuff in the beginners guide. I found it quite helpful. I just switched to arch about a week ago and used the beginners guide. The longevity of it could probably be cut down some, but isn't that why there is links in the top. So if you want cpu freq scaling click that and away you go. I say good job to who wrote it and I don't think it sucks or should be scraped.

On a side note saying it sucks is a bit harse. Someone worked hard on that.

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#42 2007-10-09 18:37:02

Dusty
Schwag Merchant
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
Website

Re: Wiki overhaul

I think somebody should dig up the original thread discussing the beginner's guide and remind everyone what its purpose is. IIRC, its *supposed* to be long, and is based on the Ubuntu Users Guide.

Dusty

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#43 2007-10-09 19:18:37

Doehni
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-19
Posts: 175

Re: Wiki overhaul

I actually really like the beginners guide, because everything important and some good tips are there on one big page.
You can just print it if you need to, and finding a topic isn't a problem because of the TOC at the beginning.

I'd like to keep it, but another beginners guide (maybe named differently) can't do any harm, can it? wink

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#44 2007-10-09 19:39:03

CocoAUS
Member
Registered: 2007-09-07
Posts: 60

Re: Wiki overhaul

For those whining about me saying "sucks":

I said it after I was told to check it again, because it had changed and might be better.  I made a previous post that was more articulate without using the word "sucks", and I said, "It still sucks" only to sum up the idea that I still had the same criticisms as before.

Also, you can like something and find it useful while still wanting it to be better.  No poor person would complain about getting 5 dollars, but wouldn't 100 dollars be much, much better?

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#45 2007-10-09 20:18:06

thayer
Fellow
From: Vancouver, BC
Registered: 2007-05-20
Posts: 1,560
Website

Re: Wiki overhaul

I think what everyone is suggesting is that the word "sucks" should not be applied to anyone's hard work regardless of the context.  There are far more positive ways of getting your point across, such as "it's better than nothing, but it still needs work", or "it could use improvement".  I think you will find that the folks who dedicate a lot of their time to making this community better will be more receptive to your criticisms if they are respectful. For the record, pointing out the importance of netiquette shouldn't be considered whining either.


thayer williams ~ cinderwick.ca

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#46 2007-10-09 21:03:34

CocoAUS
Member
Registered: 2007-09-07
Posts: 60

Re: Wiki overhaul

Sucks is a descriptive word and it summed up what I meant.  For those offended by it, well, I'm offended by you being offended.  People say Bush sucks all the time--but he's done a lot of hard work!

Back to the wiki, though, which is what this thread is about.  Whatever word you use to describe it.  It doesn't matter how much work went into it--what matters is the final product.  Don't want your efforts wasted?  Then put them into making an ideal guide.

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#47 2007-10-09 21:53:57

thayer
Fellow
From: Vancouver, BC
Registered: 2007-05-20
Posts: 1,560
Website

Re: Wiki overhaul

The problem, the way I see it, is that "ideal" is different for everyone.  Dusty's idea of a good guide may quite well be the opposite of Misfit138's, or mine, etc.  Perhaps what should be done first, before overhauling a project that aims to be such a staple for newcomers, is to discuss exactly what it is that will make it ideal for most everyone.  Once that's agreed upon there can be a clear goal to achieve.

For me, the beginner's guide should be a lot more about the philosophy behind Arch and it's package management, and a lot less about DE's and other extras. A brief example:

Introduction - Briefly explain what Arch is and isn't (e.g. that there is no default desktop, that the user will need to learn how it works before they can expect to see it work)
Installation
- Downloading/Burning an ISO (personally, I think the FTP ISO is the best option but again, that's just an opinion)
- Arch Setup Process - detail what needs to be done in order to install Arch and get to shell prompt
- User account creation - step-by-step creating a non-root account from which to log into
- Sudo - basic configuration steps for adding the user to sudo

Package Management
- Quick overview of pacman and it's essential commands (e.g -Sc, -Syu, -S, -Rs, etc..)
- The importance of reading install notes, etc.
- Explain the modular nature of Arch packaging as a whole

System Configuration
-- The concept of /etc based configuration files, especially /etc/rc.conf
-- Modules and Daemons (what they are and how they work, especially in relation to other distros)
-- The importance of man pages and a good text editor

Sample setups
- An overview explaining that these are just sample setups to get the user pointed in the right direction. They should cover enough info to get the user started with a basic (albeit ugly) desktop from which to build the rest of their system).

- Graphical Desktops (Core Modules and Daemons)
A bulleted list of wiki links that cover the essentials for any DE or WM:
      1. Xorg - The bare necessity for all graphical desktops
      2. ATI/NVIDIA/INTEL - Essential video setup
      3. ALSA - Essential audio setup

-- Sample 1 - A vanilla KDE installation
    A bulleted list of links pointing to the core wiki articles that most users will want/need to know when installing KDE:
      1. Xorg
      2. ATI/NVIDIA/INTEL
      3. ALSA
      4. KDE

Again, these would be just WIKI links with a short description next to each item explaining "why" they're required

The idea being that if users have a base understanding of how the Arch system works, they will be able to easily locate a wiki, follow its instructions and install/configure any software from the repos. Perhaps this is too ideal and expects too much from new users, but I also believe that if users understand why they're doing something, they will find it makes more sense and will be able to apply those skills to Arch system management as a whole.

Last edited by thayer.w (2007-10-09 21:56:44)


thayer williams ~ cinderwick.ca

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#48 2007-10-09 21:59:59

CocoAUS
Member
Registered: 2007-09-07
Posts: 60

Re: Wiki overhaul

I agree, we should probably come to some sort of community agreement on the skeleton of the guide, and then piece it together from there (perhaps assigning various sections or duties to individual volunteers, in order to speed things up and not overwhelm).

The specific content then becomes an issue as well.  We might have one section (say, initial setup) that goes into way too much depth and covers a number of non-essentials, whereas the desktop installation section could end up having perhaps too litte information, giving nothing more than a list of commands to execute in order to install GNOME.

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