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#1 2007-11-05 22:15:57

Crooksey
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From: UK ~
Registered: 2006-08-14
Posts: 415
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Possible new section for the website.

At the top right of the Arch website, you have the sevral tabs, e.g. "home", "forums", "wiki" etc. I personally think that a clincher for allot of brand new linux users is a "media" section.

When i first started using Linux, I used to browse round sevral diffrent sites for diffrent distro's and check out their screenshots, of course now ~3 years down the pipeline I know this means nothing, but for new users its a nice thing to see.

Last friday whilst I was at college, I was trying to "convert" one of my friends to Linux, explaining all the advantages of a package manager and a customisable init system, when all he cared about was distro screenshots, when he found none on the main page of the arch site, he quickly moved on to Fedora/PCLinuxOS etc.

The addition of an extra media section, listing community and stock backgrounds/screenshots I think would be a great addition to help attract some more attention to the site.

I think there was a screenshot section like 1.5 years ago (I saw a fluxbox screenshot I really liked smile ), but im not sure where thats gone,  think it was art.archlinux.org, but that has since died.

A range of screenshots would demonstrate Arch's flexibility and userbase, aswell as community and offical wallpapers.

Just my $0.02, what you reckon?


Arch Linux since 2006
Python Web Developer + Sys Admin (Gentoo/BSD)

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#2 2007-11-05 23:58:29

byte
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From: Düsseldorf (DE)
Registered: 2006-05-01
Posts: 2,046

Re: Possible new section for the website.

3 quick tips:

http://www.archlinux.org/art/ (well, ahem...)

http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewforum.php?id=47 (Screenshot mania!)

http://galerie.archlinux.fr/ (similar to the old art.archlinux.org, iirc)


1000

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#3 2007-11-06 01:00:38

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

Yeah, we used to have art.archlinux.org as a gallery site. It was FAR underused, and rarely visited, so we killed it.

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#4 2007-11-06 04:28:49

peets
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From: Montreal
Registered: 2007-01-11
Posts: 936
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

Crooksey wrote:

When i first started using Linux, I used to browse round sevral diffrent sites for diffrent distro's and check out their screenshots, of course now ~3 years down the pipeline I know this means nothing, but for new users its a nice thing to see.

That's what I did too! I believe in attracting users to linux, but I don't see the need to attract users to Arch. No one's making money here (wait, I think) and a well thought out decision of which linux distribution to use will certainly have arch in its top choices. I chose arch as my first distribution because I wanted a simple system that I could understand a bit (and the wiki is good, although I realised that afterwards).

Actually, you know what, I agree with you. If someone chooses arch for the bling, and they are scared at first boot, too bad for them. If someone doesn't choose arch for lack of available artwork, the commnity has lost a potential new member.

It would be hard to choose which artwork is worthy of the "showoff" section though. The competition for a possible new logo is sparking some heated arguing, imagine if we had to go through something similar for every screenshot going into that section! Maybe a list of links to the forum screenshot threads would do the trick.

Sorry if I sound like dinosaur comics.

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#5 2007-11-06 07:58:55

Xilon
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Registered: 2007-01-01
Posts: 243

Re: Possible new section for the website.

Imo this would be very misleading. If you see a screenshot of a distro, you expect to have what you install look the same. If someone has a screenshot of KDE-MOD with some fancy theme, and installs Arch and all (s)he gets is a console... well, it's just pointless.

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#6 2007-11-06 08:56:19

onearm
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From: Anywhere but here
Registered: 2006-07-06
Posts: 359
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

Xilon wrote:

Imo this would be very misleading. If you see a screenshot of a distro, you expect to have what you install look the same. If someone has a screenshot of KDE-MOD with some fancy theme, and installs Arch and all (s)he gets is a console... well, it's just pointless.

That's the problem with linux: people should understand that it's not windows or macos where anybody gets the same standard configuration (somewhat modifiable), but with a distro you get only one of the million of possible configurations. And you are free to change it anytime.


To get something done, a committee should consist of no more than three persons, two of them absent.
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#7 2007-11-06 09:29:35

Crooksey
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From: UK ~
Registered: 2006-08-14
Posts: 415
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

Xilon wrote:

Imo this would be very misleading. If you see a screenshot of a distro, you expect to have what you install look the same. If someone has a screenshot of KDE-MOD with some fancy theme, and installs Arch and all (s)he gets is a console... well, it's just pointless.

http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/shots.xml

Last time I checked, gentoo didnt look like that after install.

I'm saying some people get "scared" off, by the descriptions about arch being for the "command line junkie", however if new users to linux in genral can see what  a command line install can look like, then they will probably give it a shot. Because in my opinion the screenshots on this forums are some of the nicest I have seen.


Arch Linux since 2006
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#8 2007-11-06 10:14:03

neotuli
Lazy Developer
From: London, UK
Registered: 2004-07-06
Posts: 1,204
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

I'm willing to put up a single screenshot...
That would be the login prompt on vc/1.

C'mon guys, let's be realistic. Screenshots are representative of an *application* of arch. In the same vein we should be putting up something representative of all the other stuff arch can do. So get crackin'.

- An Arch install served you this page.
- You're probably reading this page on an arch install.
- What about the guy that uses arch for his standard install on a cluster?
- Headless fileservers
- My router
- Computational biology number crunching arch install
- A simple command line
- Arch installed to a CD, making a liveCD
- Arch as a development environment for zomg coolest app ever
- Oh right, desktop arch.

You see, if I were to make a screenshots page and link it to that nav bar right now (and I could, too), I'd be skewing someone's first impression of Arch. They'd look at them and go "Oh cool! Another desktop linux distro!". But uh... that's not what arch is, and that's not what arch aims to be, so why advertise it so prominently?

Get the picture?


The suggestion box only accepts patches.

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#9 2007-11-06 12:56:53

Mikko777
Member
From: Suomi, Finland
Registered: 2006-10-30
Posts: 837

Re: Possible new section for the website.

I think that's a great idea. Since most ppl will wan't to see some screenshots why not make a collage representing those things you mentioned tongue

Then some different de's and wm's to show that arch is about "freedom" "choices" etc...

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#10 2007-11-06 13:49:57

Crooksey
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From: UK ~
Registered: 2006-08-14
Posts: 415
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

@neotull

I see excatly where you are coming from, but Im talking about drawing more attention to arch, mainly through the people who troll distrowatch/linux sites all day, when new users are doing resarch they look at pcitures and what is possible not features, so im simply suggesting a page that shows what is possible with arch linux. Maybe a few diffrent images, updated each month from sevral shots from the Screenshot thread (chosen by whoever updates the site).


Arch Linux since 2006
Python Web Developer + Sys Admin (Gentoo/BSD)

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#11 2008-01-04 03:30:57

sm4tik
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From: Finland, Jyväskylä
Registered: 2006-11-05
Posts: 248
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

Crooksey wrote:

@neotull

I see excatly where you are coming from, but Im talking about drawing more attention to arch, mainly through the people who troll distrowatch/linux sites all day, when new users are doing resarch they look at pcitures and what is possible not features, so im simply suggesting a page that shows what is possible with arch linux. Maybe a few diffrent images, updated each month from sevral shots from the Screenshot thread (chosen by whoever updates the site).

I've been thinking about like minded thoughts lately, and I think this is a good place to let them go.

1st. I understand the so called need for screenshots.
2nd. I understand it's not really arch, when were talking about screenshots.

What I actually was _just_ thinking about, say 30 minutes ago, were the wiki pages and the step by step tutorials the wiki provides. Now wouldn't it be nice to have a cool looking desktop screenshot and then have a wiki to walk you through the installation of all the cool stuff you'd need for such a thing? I think, that would not only be a learning experience with pacman, but also a true guided tour for someone "from the ground up" with linux. A learning experience with the basics of what happens when you boot up the machine and end up in that vc/1 wondering "Whattaaa???".. and then beyond 'till one finds him/herself staring at the desktop _picture_ s/he saw a couple days back..

Aghh.. I hate when this happens, my fingers are not keeping up with my head!!

Now this would (in my head atleast) mean a few basic "arch setups" (one "arch setup" per each of the most used dm's, kde, gnome, xfce?) which would have an "official" screenshots in arch's site, and if someone would like one of them pictures, there'd be a tutorial how to achieve it. And once these so called official screenshots had been introduced, it'd mean basically almost any of us with the same dm could help in a way or another the new archer to achieve her/his goal, (..I think xorg.conf would propably be the first squared tire) and then the fresh archer could _instantly_ help the next one with like minded problems.

I can of course speak for myself only, but the easiest way for me to learn is by doing things. This is one of the main reasons I'm still sticking with arch, I love it when you have to add stuff manually to a file to make things happen automatically from now on. Not just ..install ..and ....done ...and.. wtf?! why am I running out of memory ?!..
I got fed up tweaking msconfig and the registry after every install I made, so I jumped wink

Last edited by sm4tik (2008-01-04 03:51:40)

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#12 2008-01-04 03:52:04

jacko
Member
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 840

Re: Possible new section for the website.

linux is a kernel, on top of that is what people will interact with and that's where the power lies because u have a choice.

From the sounds of it I'd say u neglected to point out the power of linux. Linux is NOT a desktop environment, it was never intended to be. But that's why linux is better because it gives the end user the ability to make it one in whatever way they so choose. Arch proves that even more by not forcing the end user into any one DE or WM from the get go.

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#13 2008-01-04 03:55:07

jacko
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Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 840

Re: Possible new section for the website.

2nd. I understand it's not really arch, when were talking about screenshots.

its not really linux in general. As far as I am concerned, distro's like ubuntu are getting bloated like windows because everyone wants windows in a linux environment. Arch shows them all up IMHO.

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#14 2008-01-04 04:05:55

sm4tik
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From: Finland, Jyväskylä
Registered: 2006-11-05
Posts: 248
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

@jacko

jacko wrote:

As far as I am concerned, distro's like ubuntu are getting bloated like windows because everyone wants windows in a linux environment. Arch shows them all up IMHO.

I see you point, and I agree! But maybe I should, just in case, say it all again again, just a little bit shorter to keep it clear. Btw.. like that "power of linux" part of your post smile
Because people WANT windows, I think it would be nice of us to give the such. With arch, achieving a screen a desktop shown in a screen shot would pretty much mean interacting with config files one has probably _never_ even seen if only using windows. This way one would actually see the installation of first xorg, then the wm/dm, then the configuring of the wm/dm and then at last, the installation and configuring of the individual daily applications (which usually are more or less integrated with newly bought computers which have windows pre-installed).
I hope this one clears my thoughts a bit!

Windows in general (as in windowed apllications) doesn't mean bloated. I still haven't missed one thing I need though my newest hardware is almost 10 years old wink It's propably more of the "nice looking out of the box" thing that makes things bloated wink

Sakari

Last edited by sm4tik (2008-01-04 04:14:56)

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#15 2008-01-04 04:14:53

jacko
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Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 840

Re: Possible new section for the website.

I will concede that fact that in the wiki beginner guide there should be links to screen shots of the different DE's that can be installed and what they will look like after u have installed them, AS IS! But, most DE's and WM's look rather shitty out of box. To show a screen shot of the capabilities of a DE or WM once configured should be left to *****-look.org sites. After all that is where one would start if they wanted there DE to look like windows. Agree?


BTW. config files in linux (pardon a few, IE. sudoer's) are text files. How much harder can u get then altering a file written in plain english? In windows u gotta hack just about everything that they do not explicitly give u control over to change.

I define bloated as anything that is installed by default that I will never use. The reason I chose arch. I do not need 20 desktop backgrounds that I will never use. Come on, no one even in windows uses those ass ugly desktop backgrounds. I give ubuntu at least credit for that. They at least chose 3 ,I believe, that look somewhat decent to even the untrained artistic eye like myself. smile

Last edited by jacko (2008-01-04 04:22:02)

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#16 2008-01-04 04:23:15

sm4tik
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From: Finland, Jyväskylä
Registered: 2006-11-05
Posts: 248
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

Agree, but if one is looking at a screenshot which one stops at to say WOW! it'd mean (WAKE UP ALL OF YOU ARCHERS!!) just one nice shot of a couple of daily apps. And, because this is an arch linux thread, this would mean an archlinux gtk theme for starters. Simplified this would mean install > boot > nice "arch desktop"
But to achieve that, there'd be a lot in between which would actually be a huge learning experience, which again would be something _everyone_ should do, just for the kicks of it wink

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#17 2008-01-04 04:34:03

jacko
Member
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 840

Re: Possible new section for the website.

sry, u just won't convince me of that. U do not 'dress up' arch. You 'dress up' the DE or WM, u want screen shots then go look at their websites and see the screen shots they have posted. Then u tell the person that they can have any one of these 'DE/WM' in any distribution of linux.

To post a screen shot of a distribution running a certain DE/WM and saying that is what that distribution is about is an absolute lie. I would not do that, its misleading and the reason why so many windows users expect more out of box with linux and why so many seem frustrated.


BTW, explorer is the equivalent of a WM in windows. U can chose to have a different WM in windows. IE. litestep, etc...

Last edited by jacko (2008-01-04 04:35:54)

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#18 2008-01-04 04:36:27

jacko
Member
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 840

Re: Possible new section for the website.

just one nice shot of a couple of daily apps.

my firefox looks exactly like it did on windows. not much to see on my daily app. But it does work better, that to me is way more important then how it looks.

Last edited by jacko (2008-01-04 04:38:51)

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#19 2008-01-04 04:47:46

sm4tik
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From: Finland, Jyväskylä
Registered: 2006-11-05
Posts: 248
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Re: Possible new section for the website.

jacko wrote:

sry, u just won't convince me of that. U do not 'dress up' arch. You 'dress up' the DE or WM, u want screen shots then go look at their websites and see the screen shots they have posted. Then u tell the person that they can have any one of these 'DE/WM' in any distribution of linux.

To post a screen shot of a distribution running a certain DE/WM and saying that is what that distribution is about is an absolute lie. I would not do that, its misleading and the reason why so many windows users expect more out of box with linux and why so many seem frustrated.

..Ahh, now I understand! Were talking about the same thing here!
I'm not trying to "dress up arch" as you say, but what I'm trying is to think as a non linux user. As said, I know and understand it's not arch when it's a screenshot, but _In My Honest Oppinion_, arch is one of the best (if not the best!) ways to get to linux, so why not trick a few of them non linunx users to the wonderfuld world of ours by a couple of screenshots "dressed up as arch" wink

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#20 2008-01-04 04:50:26

peets
Member
From: Montreal
Registered: 2007-01-11
Posts: 936
Website

Re: Possible new section for the website.

sm4tik wrote:

Aghh.. I hate when this happens, my fingers are not keeping up with my head!!

Heheheh... usually it's good to "think before you type", but on the forums I like to think as I write also.

So here goes smile

I believe in the power of screenshots. They demonstrate the everyday use of archlinux for desktop/home users.

They say, "Look at the variety of configurations that are possible. With Arch, you choose."
They say, "Look at how pretty those configurations can be! If you were scared off because you thought linux was all about kernel-hacking in a 80x25 terminal, you should be comforted now!"
They even say, "With linux, your desktop can look way better than Windows, even than Mac!"
They serve as publicity for all the software available on (arch)linux.
They provide motivation for new users who seem stuck outside of X, or who feel like crying when they see what their WM looks like upon installation (think FVWM).
... bla bla bla.

What I'd like to see most though is a video. I'd like to see a video demonstrating the power of the command-line / GNU tools. I knew I wanted linux on my home computer when I set up Gentoo at work and got my first taste of Bash (what kind of employer asks an intern who doesn't know about 'ls' and 'cd' to install Gentoo?!? That was a fun job). Tab completion, wildcards, pipes! I was in love. For me, the command line is -for most tasks- so much more efficient and so much more enjoyable than any other computer interface I've seen.

Anyway, none of this is directly about Arch or Linux. Any Unix features Bash, and something that runs on one linux will run on another, and patati patata. Still, screenshots demonstrate what everyday use of an archlinux system can look like. They promote freedom of choice. And there is a link between freedom of choice and hacker culture. And there is a link between hacker culture and linux. And there is a link between linux and arch. And there is a link between arch and freedom of choice.

I'm all for screenshots, and showing them off at large.

Notes:
1. "patati patata" is (Quebec) french for "Yadi yada" or "bla bla bla".
2. I tried to have fun by over-exaggerating the writing style of this post. Don't take me to seriously.
3. big_smile

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#21 2008-01-04 04:58:54

jacko
Member
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 840

Re: Possible new section for the website.

I like the command line because it makes me feel like I am in command. I read an article that proved this, a guy who was teaching computer class started out with the CLI only to its new students. The students where actually amazed at how easy it was to understand the CLI. U tell it to do something and it told u that it either accomplished the task or didn't and the reason why it didn't accomplish the task, in ENGLISH!

With windows again, all I ever got was a stupid pop-up box telling me that an error occurred and the program had to be shut down. The u have a button named 'details' that had more cryptic BS to confuse the end user even more.

BTW, a video would be nice, most people are scared of the CLI because they do not understand it. I will admit I was to at first, but since then it has taken me back to the old DOS days and basic computer programming class I took in high school. I must admit, linux makes me feel like I finally have command over my computer again. It for once does what I tell it too and nothing else.

Last edited by jacko (2008-01-04 05:00:43)

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#22 2008-01-04 05:01:36

sm4tik
Member
From: Finland, Jyväskylä
Registered: 2006-11-05
Posts: 248
Website

Re: Possible new section for the website.

@peets
You have a few words/phrases there that I missed in my "what I'm trying to say"
1. Promote
2.  Publicity
3. ..can look way cooler than..
4. Bla bla bla
5. Patati patata

That 5th's like french fries.. in french of course..
"hey can I have a few of those nice french fries.. or whatever potatatitataas theyre called in french? And just a little ketchup with 'em ok?"
lol

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#23 2008-01-04 10:46:13

Wilson Phillips
Member
From: Vicksburg, MS, USA
Registered: 2007-09-24
Posts: 70

Re: Possible new section for the website.

I personally think that anyone who chooses a distro because of screenshots doesn't know enough to make an intelligent decision. Are those the people we want to attract? Let them install Ubuntu.


Guarantee does not cover shark bite, bear attack, or children under 5.

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#24 2008-01-04 12:19:54

alex_anthony
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2007-09-25
Posts: 344

Re: Possible new section for the website.

I agree with a link to the Artwork and Screenshots/Monthly screenshots thread
show off the best that people can do with Arch

Last edited by alex_anthony (2008-01-04 12:21:24)

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#25 2008-01-04 13:19:10

iphitus
Forum Fellow
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: Possible new section for the website.

A screenshot doesnt really say anything about Arch.

If someone is picking a distro for appearence, then let them use Ubuntu/etc -- they're clearly not looking for the things Arch is best at.

Last edited by iphitus (2008-01-04 13:20:47)

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