Very noobish question about package updates....

5x5 · 2007-12-17 20:34:00

Hopefully you guys will forgive me for what is possibly a no-brainer question. I am not quite sure how to go about updating some packages. For instance...today I saw there was an update for Gimp which would be 2.4.3-1. I also saw it was listed as being in the 'extra' repository. I use Gimp alot so I fired up pacman, did -Syu updating core, extra, community and kdemod. However, when I -Sy'd Gimp, the only version that came up was the one I currently have installed, 2.4.2.
I went back to the details page for the package and as a source, it lists ftp://ftp.gimp.org/pub/gimp/v2.4/gimp-2.4.3.tar.bz2.
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is:
#1...do I need to add that source address to my pacman.conf?
#2...why does it list it as being in the 'extra' repository if I can't just upgrade as I would anything else?
#3...is there a way for me to easily identify the various means for acquiring packages and updates...you know....like I actually knew what I was doing? I realize that I DON'T know what I'm doing...but I'd like to appear as if I did. ;-)

Many thks if anyone has the time to explain this. You would not believe how grateful I'll be b/c this has been sort of a mystery process to me so far.

Carrie
(5x5)

cactus · 2007-12-17 20:49:31

In general though, you performed the appropriate steps:
- saw update was avail
- Did a 'pacman -Syu'

That is all that should be needed.
It could just be that the mirror you are using hasn't synchronized yet.
What mirror are you using?

Cerebral · 2007-12-17 20:50:48

I think you basically have to wait for your mirror to sync. When packages are listed on the frontpage, it means we've just updated them on the master server - the mirrors still have to grab the package from us and host it for you to download.

My advice is just to be patient. Your "one-stop-shop" for Arch packages is pacman, and your pacman skills seem fine. We don't have a million places to get packages here, like in some RPM distros for example. Just give it a day or two and it oughta show up.

fwojciec · 2007-12-17 20:58:24

Regarding your problems with gimp update - it takes a while before updated packages reach the mirror you're using to update the system. What you see on archlinux webpage, in other words, is not always the same thing as on the server you're accessing, there is usually few hours of lag. Try updating the system in a couple of hours and you'll probably get the new gimp automatically.

#1 No. This whole question is very, to use your word, "noobish" pacman.conf only specifies the repos and mirror servers (via files in /etc/pacman.d/) while sources for particular packages are defined in the PKGBUILD file for each package - but that's a whole different story. You can read up on makepkg and ABS in the wiki if you're interested in how Arch packages are created.

#2 The differences between repos are mostly significant from the standpoint of the development process. Basically everything in "core" needs to be tested extra carefully and must be stable because when things in core break it is likely that the whole system will become unusable. Packages in "extra" are not as critical in this sense because when those are broken it usually just means that a particular application is not going to work. There is more to it, of course, but somebody else would have to explain it to you in more detail...

#3 I don't really know what it is that you're asking here... There are, essentially, two different ways of acquiring packages for Arch linux, the first is via pacman using the repos, the other one is via AUR repository using makepkg to build and pacman to install. There are also some wrappers (yaourt, aurbuild, etc.) that make building/installing packages from AUR more automatic; you can also build the official packages (the ones that you usually install in the binary form using pacman) from source using makepkg/ABS. Again, this is not something that can be explained easily in a couple of sentences: I suggest browsing the wiki, reading up and experimenting with things. It may sound complicated at this stage but once you understand the logic of the system you become aware of the wonderful flexibility and simplicity of this design.

Last edited by fwojciec (2007-12-17 21:00:53)

cactus · 2007-12-17 21:11:21

ps. Noobish questions are ok in this forum, which is so titled, "newbie corner".

5x5 · 2007-12-17 23:56:22

Whew. Thanks all for replying so quickly. I'll give it another shot and see if my mirror has been updated yet. I guess I was too antsy.
fwojciec - I guess I was asking, on point #3, is there an easy way...either via pacman or some other pm, to access and install things from AUR? I did actually get one tiny thing installed (gtk theme engine) via PKGBUILD but the whole time, I was unsure if I was using the correct method or if there was some way I should've been doing it via pacman. I mean, does pacman keep up with those PKGBUILDs that I install myself or do I need to maintain them? I was also referring to some random pkg that I might find that isn't a part of any repo or AUR and hasn't been prepared(?) for Arch.
However, I don't want you guys to spend the time answering what you said is already posted in the wiki (which is an awesome wiki, by the way). I'll take the next couple of days to read up on this. I am REALLY impressed with pacman, I must say. I started out with those turn-key distros and am used to Synaptic but I have encountered many dependancy problems over the months with it. I haven't had the slightest problem with anything installed via pacman.
Thx cactus for the reassurance on my newbieism. I'm using the unixheads mirror.
cerebral...that's one of the many great things about Arch..there aren't 50 different repositories containing who knows what. I totally disagree with anyone who says that Arch is not for newbies. I am green as they come and I feel much more at ease with Arch, less vulnerable to the whims of whatever lies beneath the GUI. I'm learning that there really isn't anything to be afraid of in there if I just dig in and get my hands dirty.....so to speak. :-)

Thx guys!
Carrie
(5x5)

p.s. just Syu'd and extra and community updated....but no new Gimp yet. I'll keep checking.

Ashren · 2007-12-18 00:11:37

5x5, perhaps you should check out yaourt. It is in the AUR and is a really nifty tool for installing AUR material from the commandline.

Last edited by Ashren (2007-12-18 00:12:13)

5x5 · 2007-12-18 03:44:14

Holy cow. yaourt is virtually identical to pacman. I was just able to install virtualbox_bin in exactly the same manner as pkgs from the repositories. I can't thank you enough for that suggestion! That was just what I was looking for, Ashren. :-)

Carrie
(5x5)

Cerebral · 2007-12-18 12:13:00

When using yaourt, make sure you carefully look at the PKGBUILD and .install files of any package you're about to install. The .install file runs as root when you're installing the package, so it's particularily vulnerable to somebody adding malicious commands - you need to ensure you know what you're installing.

5x5 · 2007-12-18 12:17:29

Cerebral wrote:

When using yaourt, make sure you carefully look at the PKGBUILD and .install files of any package you're about to install. The .install file runs as root when you're installing the package, so it's particularily vulnerable to somebody adding malicious commands - you need to ensure you know what you're installing.

I did go and read through some documentation for yaourt and saw that recommendation there. Hopefully it'll be pretty apparent that something fishy is going on with the PKGBUILD...i.e. strange names of files to be d'loaded? I will definitely do that, tho. Thk you cerebral.

Cerebral · 2007-12-18 13:31:17

Well, strange filenames maybe, but more often than not I'd suspect commands like 'rm -rf /' or something in the PKGBUILD or .install file. Just be on the lookout for anything dangerous.

kazuya · 2007-12-18 20:21:39

I'm with 5x5 on that noobish thing. This post was extra helpful in answering some of my questions. Per package updates, someone in another distribution forum hinted about the fear that since arch follows a rolling release cycle or constantly moving cycle, that if you do not update your system frequently, you risk breakage when you do upgrade as there would be so many or too many changes..

How true is this? Is this something worth being concerned about? So far my arch install is great and is what I use daily now for the last one week.

Cerebral · 2007-12-18 20:46:34

kazuya wrote:

I'm with 5x5 on that noobish thing. This post was extra helpful in answering some of my questions. Per package updates, someone in another distribution forum hinted about the fear that since arch follows a rolling release cycle or constantly moving cycle, that if you do not update your system frequently, you risk breakage when you do upgrade as there would be so many or too many changes...

If you keep up to date with the front page news and watch the install messages as they go by, you shouldn't ever get surprised with an update because you waited too long.

I know that in some cases, if you don't update your system for a long time then try to install a specific app without updating the whole system first, then you might get some breakage.

For example, say there's an app called 'musicplayer' and that depends on 'libwavdecoder' or something. (lol wav decoder, I love my examples). Additionally, 'movieplayer' also depends on 'libwavdecoder'.

Let's say that musicplayer-1.0 is built against libwavdecoder-1.0. You have these installed on your system, but don't care for movies, so you don't install movieplayer. Now, you don't update for 6 months. In the meantime, we've packaged the updated versions (2.0) of all of the above. Suddenly, you realize that your life revolves around movies, and you install movieplayer - you get version 2, since it's what's in our repos. But movieplayer won't work with libwavdecoder version 1, since we've updated to version 2. So, you'll have a broken movieplayer.

Then, you realize what's wrong, and update _only_ libwavdecoder. Now, suddenly, musicplayer doesn't work. So you have to update it too. This chain can get pretty long in a real system, and it's why we always say "do a full system upgrade before installing new software" to save yourself some real pain.

5x5 · 2007-12-18 21:11:56

Pretty good advice. That would not have occured to me at all. So basically, -Syu each time I install....or each day or what kind of routine do people usually follow to be safe?

Cerebral · 2007-12-18 21:15:19

I -Syu with no logical pattern or guide - basically whenever I think of it. Sometimes I get no updates, sometimes a boatload.

Definitely -Syu before you decide to install some new app - or at least know that if you install a new app, and you get an error like "could not find libmylib.so.1", then that means you should do an update before filing a bug report.

5x5 · 2007-12-18 21:23:06

Ok...so basically no rhyme or reason...the way I do everything anyway. ;-)
And I'm waaay too timid to file a bug report at this point. I'm fairly certain that everything that is going wrong for me now, which is surprisingly little with Arch, has to do with my inexperience more than anything. I made one stupid (uninformed) remark on another forum right after I got wrapped up in Linux and the charred flesh is still flaking off now and then. ;-)

Cerebral · 2007-12-18 21:25:45

You will actually find that we're very forgiving of user mistakes around here and, so long as you approach the problem in a constructive way as opposed to saying something along the lines of "Your OS is broke - fix it!", we'll be glad to help.

Flammage doesn't happen very often here, and the forum mods are great guys who keep that kind of noise down to a minimum. It's a great community, and one on the reasons I stuck around after installing Arch.

kazuya · 2007-12-19 06:04:40

extremely helpful tip. i experimented and can vouch for this working for me. I did not know before,. now i can allay the misguided concerns of others. thanks again. very helpful as always.

5x5 · 2007-12-19 15:04:07

I think this is a really great forum. I don't know if I posted my thoughts about it here...or somehwere else, can't remember....but I'm really impressed with how helpful and open to newcomers the Arch community seems to be. It sure wasn't that way 7-8 years ago when I first tried Mandrake. No one wanted to deal with newbies back then, and I can understand that, but it really is cool that the community has evolved along with the kernel and the distros based on it. I know it's appealing to belong to a somewhat exclusive group that not everyone can just walk into and be welcomed...but today it seems like the focus has shifted more to the importance of advancing the idea of open source and 'individuality' and to do that, it's really important to be able to absorb those people into the group that might once have been given the cold-shoulder. I think alot of the forums today are so much more welcoming than the old bbs's and newsgroups used to be but Arch tops them all. I hav ereally played the field these last few months and it appears that this is where I'm going to settle. Linux has renewed so much excitement for me and opened up a whole new world of exploration and it's very cool to have a place where you can come and ask questions of very knowledable people who don't mind helping you learn.
I'm just a really happy person these days. Who'da thunk it that an operating system could have such a positive affect on one's attitude? Ha.

Cerebral · 2007-12-19 15:24:10

Heh, yeah, the community rules.

I poked you on DA too. S'what you get for posting it as your website link.

5x5 · 2007-12-19 15:40:24

Ha!! Tks for the poke!
I really like xfce too. LinuxMint has an xfce version that I tried out and really liked the look of. But it didn't seem like it was as customizable as far as appearance as gnome or kde. Was I wrong about that b/c I only used it for a day or two. Also, there are a few kde and gnome apps that I am REALLY attached to...evolution, akregator, smb4k, shisen-sho, epiphany....don't they install so many support pkgs that you might as well install the whole thing? I mean...I don't know. I only have gnome on this Arch install right now but I just installed smb4k and it was like 63mb!! What do you suggest for stuff like that? Do people try to find xfce apps that are similar to what they're using to reduce the size? Also, IS there a way to make xfce more customizable?

Cerebral · 2007-12-19 16:35:59

I'm lazy - I also use ktorrent, smb4k, and some other KDE apps with xfce4. I like them, and I don't mind the downloads. I imagine people tend to stick to gtk apps with xfce4, since xfce's already built on GTK stuff (afaik).

As far as customizing the look, I suppose it isn't as customizable as KDE or Gnome, but then I haven't used a lot of KDE or Gnome so I don't really know how customizable they are!

You could always give xfce4 a testrun (pacman -S xfce4), and if you don't like it, remove it the same way you installed it (pacman -Rsc xfce4).

Last edited by Cerebral (2007-12-19 16:36:18)

Arch Linux

#1 2007-12-17 20:34:00

Very noobish question about package updates....

#2 2007-12-17 20:49:31

Re: Very noobish question about package updates....

#3 2007-12-17 20:50:48

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#5 2007-12-17 21:11:21

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#6 2007-12-17 23:56:22

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#7 2007-12-18 00:11:37

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#12 2007-12-18 20:21:39

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