KDE4 in [current] (When?)

moustic · 2008-01-14 20:54:15

A lot of people use GNOME so they consider KDE as secondary .

KDE4.0 can coexist with KDE3.5.8:D but KDE has no interest for them .

However KDE4.0 is a great advertising tool for linux . They do not understand it.

Last edited by moustic (2008-01-14 20:57:22)

Cerebral · 2008-01-14 20:58:06

BrigadierFRog wrote:

Again, why can't kde3 and kde4 coexist much like other wm's and de's have in arch before? Its not like it hasn't been done...

Let me address the "xfce-svn coexisting with xfce" argument people keep using - this isn't the same.

KDE4 will eventually replace KDE3.5 in our repos - totally replace. If we publish a ton of 'kde4' packages in unstable, eventually we'll have a huge headache because kde4 will get renamed to kde and trust me, that's not a pleasant thing to have to do to even a single package, let alone something the size of kde.

xfce and xfce-svn are different, because xfce-svn is never intended to replace xfce - they both continue along, happily updating at their own pace.

BrigadierFRog · 2008-01-14 22:27:54

So then are kde3 libs going to still be available? qt3? cause lots of apps still use those even if you replace them with the kde4 libs. It could be years before they all get moved. Some apps may never be moved. Think gtk1 and gnome1 apps. How long did those exist even after gtk2 and gnome2 came out. XMMS never even moved. Mplayer used gtk1 for a *long* time. Some apps still use gtk1, and its still in the repos. Are you just going to stop supporting all of these applications all at once? Some renaming, however it will be done, will have to be done regardless it seems.

oli · 2008-01-15 13:32:58

Gullible Jones wrote:

... What strange psychoactive drugs are the KDE devs on? Seriously, why call it 4.0 if it is actually a beta? Why not call it 4.0b1 like everyone else?

Because of hype. Lack of mature features, lack of stability and the warning of the devs ...

May-C · 2008-01-15 14:11:46

Our KDE maintainer has said he won't be packaging KDE 4.0 for Arch's main repos, for a number of reasons. I haven't heard any compelling arguments from the other side - only "Other distros are doing it" and "I want it, so package it for me." Sorry, but that won't be enough to change anyone's mind.

That other distro doing it is really a weak argument!
That a lot of people say: "I want it, so package it for me", shows that there is a big interest. So I really don't understand why this is no argument. Actually kde3 and 4 can coexist without a problem. Thats something I really don't understand about arch. Why don't you use as packagename qt3 and qt4 or kde3 and kde4? I am sorry but I just don't get it... I have to say I am new to archlinux so maybe it is my fault

There are other arguments to have kde4 in the repo:
- I want to develop for kde4
- I want to test kde4 and report bugs so kde4 matures

However I can understand the decision to not add kde4 to the repo... It is really a beta version (btw e17 too). Maybe it is just too big to maintain kde3 and 4.
I really have no problem because there are already repos which fill the gap for me.

Allan · 2008-01-15 14:48:47

Just to put some fuel on the fire... here is a summary of what other distros are doing: http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue … 14#feature

dolby · 2008-01-15 14:54:45

May-C wrote:

There are other arguments to have kde4 in the repo:
- I want to develop for kde4
- I want to test kde4 and report bugs so kde4 matures

if that is the case , it seems to me that this is missing
-i will built the kde4 packages myself

or at best not bitch if someone else, for his own reasons doesnt want to do it for me

Last edited by dolby (2008-01-15 14:56:42)

May-C · 2008-01-15 15:09:59

or at best not bitch if someone else, for his own reasons doesnt want to do it for me

Did I miss something? Where did I bitch? Let's see what I wrote...

However I can understand the decision to not add kde4 to the repo... It is really a beta version (btw e17 too). Maybe it is just too big to maintain kde3 and 4.
I really have no problem because there are already repos which fill the gap for me.

So where is the bitching? YOU are bitching. Actually I did pkg it for myself with help from the PKGBUILD provided by kdemod as I am an x86_64 users.
Sorry that I did not know that providing arguments is bitching... you provided none... not pro neither contra.

evdvelde · 2008-01-15 15:11:58

dolby wrote:

May-C wrote:
There are other arguments to have kde4 in the repo:
- I want to develop for kde4
- I want to test kde4 and report bugs so kde4 matures
if that is the case , it seems to me that this is missing
-i will built the kde4 packages myself

Owww... strange things happening here... if I wanted to package everything I like myself, I would use LFS. Asking package maintainers for packages is not such a weird thing to do imho. They cannot solve all problems, but putting some effort in one of the biggest DE's is quite normal I think. KDE 3.5.8 won't change anyway, only minor patches could be added, so there is no work at all there. Enabling users to use/test/develop for KDE4 is really necessary if you want to keep up the name of a distribution with the latest software.

dolby · 2008-01-15 15:57:00

May-C wrote:

or at best not bitch if someone else, for his own reasons doesnt want to do it for me
Did I miss something? Where did I bitch? Let's see what I wrote...
However I can understand the decision to not add kde4 to the repo... It is really a beta version (btw e17 too). Maybe it is just too big to maintain kde3 and 4.
I really have no problem because there are already repos which fill the gap for me.
So where is the bitching? YOU are bitching. Actually I did pkg it for myself with help from the PKGBUILD provided by kdemod as I am an x86_64 users.
Sorry that I did not know that providing arguments is bitching... you provided none... not pro neither contra.

i wasnt referring to you, at least to this particular post of yours,quite the contrary. i was referring users somehow *demanding* kde 4.0 to be in official repos. most people dont seem to be able to understand tpowa's reasoning, or refuse to

Owww... strange things happening here... if I wanted to package everything I like myself, I would use LFS. Asking package maintainers for packages is not such a weird thing to do imho. They cannot solve all problems, but putting some effort in one of the biggest DE's is quite normal I think. KDE 3.5.8 won't change anyway, only minor patches could be added, so there is no work at all there. Enabling users to use/test/develop for KDE4 is really necessary if you want to keep up the name of a distribution with the latest software.

i dont know if you have been using Arch since you joined this forum, but as far as i know it has been sort of an Arch "policy" that if you dont like something the way developers do it you are most welcome to do it yourself the way you like it.
sure, if you consider something important enough you can make a feature request to the bug tracker, & explain the reasons for your request. others will join you others wont. making posts on the forum doesnt help

Last edited by dolby (2008-01-15 16:05:45)

May-C · 2008-01-15 16:10:35

i wasnt referring to you, at least to this particular post of yours,quite the contrary. i was referring users somehow *demanding* kde 4.0 to be in official repos. most people dont seem to be able to understand tpowa's reasoning, or refuse to

Ok thats alright. But you have to understand that if you quote me I am thinking you refer me!

mrB · 2008-01-15 18:01:48

Well I'm quite happy that Arch won't add kde4 in [extra] just yet considering that many people told me how unfinished kde 4.0 was. I think that there's a difference between "bleeding edge" and "beta". What's more, what's wrong with kdemod's repository?

daf666 · 2008-01-17 19:29:46

An interesting read about other distros and whats their plans for kde4:

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue … 14#feature

scoon · 2008-01-18 01:16:48

daf666 wrote:

An interesting read about other distros and whats their plans for kde4:
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue … 14#feature

Quite interesting read. Thanks for that.

-scoon

Valheru · 2008-01-20 02:07:45

BrigadierFRog wrote:

The reason should be simple enough. Its nice to have a stable api to develop with. And I'd much rather have the distro handle building and packaging then to attempt that all on my own. As a developer, it'd be very nice to at least have the option to use KDE 4 and develop with it. I don't really understand why kde3 and kde4 can't coexist in the repos at this time. Fluxbox had two entries, XFCE had two entries, E has two entries. Seriously. I don't mind building it from svn all the time, but it'd be nice to not have to. It'd be nice to be able to use it as well to report bugs etc etc.
Again, why can't kde3 and kde4 coexist much like other wm's and de's have in arch before? Its not like it hasn't been done...

There is no reason, other than that the portage maintainers are lazy. Linux is about choice - give your users that choice or they will abandon you, simple as that.

Firstly, KDE4 has an undeniably "cool" factor. A lot of people are going to want to use it simply for that reason alone, and not giving that choice is just going to piss them off. Saying that KDEmod is taking care of it no excuse at all - most people would prefer official repo support for it. Stick it in unstable, that's what it's there for.

Secondly, as mentioned many people are developing software for KDE4. It's a major pain in the ass to first have to write packagebuilds for the entire KDE4 install, and then compile and install it before you can get around to writing your own code. I have just had to do this and believe me I cursed the portage maintainers ever step of the way.

kensai · 2008-01-20 03:02:25

Valheru wrote:

Firstly, KDE4 has an undeniably "cool" factor.

Yeah, like it being a development preview, said even by the developers of KDE.
Cannot resize panel.
Many usability found on kde3 is gone in kde4 because of timing issues.
And it being a locked release with no kde 4.0.x jsut 4.0 and the next being kde 4.1

I'm a GNOME user myself, but I wanted to test kde4 when it first came out, but to see it is intended only for testers and developers is a big let down.

Belitsky.A · 2008-01-20 11:10:16

http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Phoronix … 994/vr.php

Here is the KDE 4 release schedule for the next couple of months, as shared this morning at the KDE 4.0 release event keynote by Aaron Seigo. KDE 4.0.1 will be released later this month with minor maintenance releases coming every month. KDE 4.1 is planned for release this July with much polishing since KDE 4.0.0.
January - KDE 4.0.1
February - KDE 4.0.2
March - KDE 4.0.3
April - KDE 4.0.4
May - KDE 4.0.5
June - KDE 4.0.6
July - KDE 4.1.0
August - KDE 4.1.1
etc...
For those still sticking to the KDE 3.5 branch, KDE 3.5.9 will be released next month.

tomk · 2008-01-20 13:52:36

Valheru wrote:

There is no reason, other than that the portage maintainers are lazy. Linux is about choice - give your users that choice or they will abandon you, simple as that.

Insulting the devs may make you feel better, but how does it help exactly? Yes, Linux is about choice, and some use have chosen to do something about this by creating their own KDE4 packages/repos/etc, rather than elongating this thread unnecessarily.

Valheru wrote:

not giving that choice is just going to piss them off.

Getting pissed off is also a choice - as mentioned above, there are more constructive alternatives.

Valheru wrote:

I have just had to do this and believe me I cursed the portage maintainers ever step of the way.

Again, if that's your thing..... :?

Oh yeah, one more thing.... portage???

dmax · 2008-01-20 13:53:16

It should be an option to run

kde should stay kde. kde4 should be kde4 until kde4 matures.

then move it to kde

Last edited by dmax (2008-01-20 13:54:12)

mrunion · 2008-01-20 15:00:51

Guys, it IS an option. Just enable the proper repository in your pacman.conf. The repository is listed on another thread for KDE4 (it may even be in this one!)

Why can't you guys wanting KDE4 just do that. There has been a KDE4 repository around since early December I believe! Just do the legwork and enable the repository. Don't put KDE4 in the "official" repositories until it at least runs well.

Valheru · 2008-01-22 16:56:14

kensai wrote:

Valheru wrote:
Firstly, KDE4 has an undeniably "cool" factor.
Yeah, like it being a development preview, said even by the developers of KDE.

Well, that is an immensely inane comment. I suppose it's on par with the rest of your post though.

Weather or not it is not suitable as a production environment is a moot point, as far as my statement is concerned. In the minds of many Linux users, it has a "cool" factor. Those people will want to install it, and should be able to install it from the official repositories. A suitable repo for KDE4 would be unstable right now.
Just saying that since the devs don't consider it usable isn't a good enough reason not to put it in the repo's, imo. If we followed that philosophy, we would have to scrap KDE3 as well, and GNOME, since rabid fanatics from both sides deem each to be totally unusable. KDE4 is at a place right now where you could run it on a daily basis as a desktop user, if you didn't mind putting up with certain deficiencies - and hey, which DE user doesn't?

Valheru · 2008-01-22 17:00:39

tomk wrote:

Valheru wrote:
There is no reason, other than that the portage maintainers are lazy. Linux is about choice - give your users that choice or they will abandon you, simple as that.
Insulting the devs may make you feel better, but how does it help exactly? Yes, Linux is about choice, and some use have chosen to do something about this by creating their own KDE4 packages/repos/etc, rather than elongating this thread unnecessarily.
Valheru wrote:
not giving that choice is just going to piss them off.
Getting pissed off is also a choice - as mentioned above, there are more constructive alternatives.
Valheru wrote:
I have just had to do this and believe me I cursed the portage maintainers ever step of the way.
Again, if that's your thing..... :?
Oh yeah, one more thing.... portage???

You miss the point entirely. The point is that many people would like to see it in an official repository. A second point is that many people know why the pacman maintainers don't want to include it, and disagree with it. Personally, I think it demonstrates an egregious lack of empathy with their user base.

attila · 2008-01-22 20:27:32

At first to my person: I use KDE since 1.x and even a new version is out i'm looking for a way to get it.:)

Valheru wrote:

Just saying that since the devs don't consider it usable isn't a good enough reason not to put it in the repo's, imo. If we followed that philosophy, we would have to scrap KDE3 as well, and GNOME, since rabid fanatics from both sides deem each to be totally unusable. KDE4 is at a place right now where you could run it on a daily basis as a desktop user, if you didn't mind putting up with certain deficiencies - and hey, which DE user doesn't?

You should differ which devs said this. Yes it be the KDE devs which says that 4.0 is not for the normal user and all of this is well explained at opensuse: http://de.opensuse.org/KDE4 (take a look at the 3 links to the blogs too)

I have taken a look at KDE4 (Live CD and kdmod/testing on a test partition) but this is the first time that i can wait without any problems for 4.1 and congratulate the arch devs that they decide to spend the time until than with more important things.

kensai · 2008-01-22 20:40:11

Valheru wrote:

Well, that is an immensely inane comment. I suppose it's on par with the rest of your post though.

Yeah, well sorry, I didn't cited there any KDE developer. But, yeah it was true that a lot of KDE developers were saying it was a Technology Preview, and someone said it was a locked version which was not going to receive update, but I see that isn't true, making my previous statement wrong, well but I found out and corrected my thinking at the end. Sorry, if I offended anyone.

Last edited by kensai (2008-01-22 20:40:30)

cry0x · 2008-01-22 21:15:45

KDE4.0 should be added to the unstable repository.
From the wiki:

The [unstable] repository can be found in unstable/os/i686 on your favorite mirror. This repository contains experimental and unstable software especially if the development version of a package has become popular for some reason, for example because the stable version is hopelessly out of date or the unstable version has some groundbreaking changes that a lot of users seem interested in testing.

It's a logical decision, and a beneficial one at that. Seems like a bunch of politics is getting in the way.

Arch Linux

#51 2008-01-14 20:54:15

Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

#52 2008-01-14 20:58:06

Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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Re: KDE4 in [current] (When?)

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