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#1 2008-04-28 20:02:10

Bestiapeluda
Member
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Registered: 2007-10-16
Posts: 180

Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Someone wrote this in the Distrowatch Weekly reader comments.
Of course subject appears anonymous.

I've been seeing some strange things going on in the Arch forums and more generally in that distro lately.

Yesterday I saw a thread about some of the problems with the repos in Arch being outdated. There were a few suggestions for things that could be done to address those problems. There wasn't a lot of criticism or finger pointing, but clearly some users are frustrated, and I have shared that frustration at times.

So when I went back just now to see where the discussion was going, the thread had been closed. The last post by the moderator ended:

"Arch provides perhaps the most high-quality ports-like system available, to build packages from source- ABS. It can be used most effectively in instances like this
Thread closed."

So apparently the Arch forum mods censor any topic if they disagree with any part of it. Besides the fact that he missed the point completely, it seems a poor way to run a distro. This is not the first strange behavior I've seen in the forums and elsewhere.

Anyone else have experiences there? I know there are a lot of Arch users who post here.

I hate when things are taken out of context

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#2 2008-04-28 20:06:47

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Poor, very poor


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#3 2008-04-28 20:13:08

iBertus
Member
From: Greenville, NC
Registered: 2004-11-04
Posts: 2,228

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

I suppose it is true that packages are sometimes not updated the same day that new versions are released, but I've never had an issue with the timeliness of Arch package updates. We've made big improvements in recent months to make Arch better for all types of users and the focus on KISS is still strong.

I'm using Arch for my daily work and have been for several years. I don't expect to switch anytime soon.

Last edited by iBertus (2008-04-28 20:14:06)

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#4 2008-04-28 20:22:01

finferflu
Forum Fellow
From: Manchester, UK
Registered: 2007-06-21
Posts: 1,899
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

As far as I can see here the moderators act as moderators, namely trying to keep flames down (and it is very easy to get flames in threads such as those mentioned). I don't see any bullish behaviour, and so far they look very polite and open minded to me. And this is not biased, I have no problem in saying things straight, and so far I have been positively impressed by the mods around here. The thing that a lot of devs take time in posting here also tells how down to earth they are.


Have you Syued today?
Free music for free people! | Earthlings

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery

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#5 2008-04-28 20:28:59

dschauer
Member
Registered: 2008-02-28
Posts: 95

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Interesting that someone would make such a comment. I've been watching these forums very closely the past 2 months and have not noticed anything strange starting to happen in the forums or in archlinux has a whole.

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#6 2008-04-28 20:31:48

Bestiapeluda
Member
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Registered: 2007-10-16
Posts: 180

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Interesting that someone would make such a comment. I've been watching these forums very closely the past 2 months and have not noticed anything strange starting to happen in the forums or in archlinux has a whole.

same here

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#7 2008-04-28 20:37:33

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

The only strange thing that has happened was that some of the new users (which are always welcome) who just started to use Arch have a weird attitude in regard of, lets call it "feature requests". They prefer to shout "I'm going to quit using Arch if you don't do this like distro X" instead of trying to understand how Arch works.

The only other strange thing that has happened is the way some of these individuals deal with their issues. Not only the DWW comment, also the anonymous mail to phrak are quite disturbing for me.


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#8 2008-04-28 20:39:19

finferflu
Forum Fellow
From: Manchester, UK
Registered: 2007-06-21
Posts: 1,899
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

What anonymous mail to the phrak?


Have you Syued today?
Free music for free people! | Earthlings

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery

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#9 2008-04-28 20:45:14

dschauer
Member
Registered: 2008-02-28
Posts: 95

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

finferflu wrote:

What anonymous mail to the phrak?

http://phraktured.net/anonymous-email-w … -hell.html

Last edited by dschauer (2008-04-28 20:46:46)

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#10 2008-04-28 20:48:36

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Thanks dschauer, thats the one I refered to...


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#11 2008-04-28 20:53:53

Ink-Jet
Member
From: London
Registered: 2008-03-27
Posts: 64
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

To be honest, I think it's just an influx of new people who just don't really *get* Arch - it'll pass.

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#12 2008-04-28 21:00:44

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

That's possible and i hope you're right.


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#13 2008-04-28 21:07:38

daf666
Member
Registered: 2007-04-08
Posts: 470
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

I think this post in DW refers to http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=47734

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#14 2008-04-28 21:10:39

TheBodziO
Member
From: Dukla, Poland
Registered: 2006-07-28
Posts: 228
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

I think that we should remain calm about the whole issue and maybe lave a comment on dw, after all someone who posted his/hers comment wrote:

Anyone else have experiences there? I know there are a lot of Arch users who post here.

I also think that it isn't a good attitude to divide users to newcommers (them) and veterans (we). We all are "we". "we" arch users (doesn't it sound like "We… band of brothers?" eh? wink). The difference is the time that we've spent using/contributing to arch. I agree that some of "us" who just started their adventure with arch are sometimes to hasty in requesting this or that without understanding consequences of their wishes. I think that a patient explanation is a good way here. But this is of course my humble opinion smile.

Last edited by TheBodziO (2008-04-28 21:13:36)


It's not the best thing when they call you a "member" you know… wink

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#15 2008-04-28 21:15:24

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

daf666 wrote:

I think this post in DW refers to http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=47734

Yea it does. But the thread has been answered and I can understand Misfits motivation to close the thread. We all like it to see packages up to date but I think wine is a special package in this regard. Using the AUR really is an answer in this case.

edit: added quote

Last edited by Sigi (2008-04-28 21:19:30)


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#16 2008-04-28 21:22:07

floke
Member
Registered: 2007-09-04
Posts: 266

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Arch *should* be more like Ubuntu though wink

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#17 2008-04-28 21:23:12

daf666
Member
Registered: 2007-04-08
Posts: 470
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Sigi wrote:

Yea it does. But the thread has been answered and I can understand Misfits motivation to close the thread. We all like it to see packages up to date but I think wine is a special package in this regard. Using the AUR really is an answer in this case.

I dont know the forum policy but generally I think its lame to close a thread that has been informative for the most part.
I was kinda wondering what if a package maintainer just *disappears* for example, when is it realized that the package needs update..

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#18 2008-04-28 21:26:56

adlucem
Member
Registered: 2007-07-19
Posts: 28

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

If the problem is a misconception from new users about what Arch really is, as people here seem to think, closing the thread does nothing to address that problem.

If Wine is a special case, then a note about that wouldn't harm.


ps: personnally, I have no problem whatsoever regarding the "uptodateness" of packages, ABS etc.
ps2: not so long ago, SpookyET got some rather unfriendly answers to a point of his (not to say that he was always friendly himself in his posts in that thread).


"The rules of Go are so elegant, organic and rigorously logical that if intelligent life forms exist elsewhere in the universe they almost certainly play Go." E. Lasker, International Chess Master.

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#19 2008-04-28 21:52:58

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,170

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

daf666 wrote:
Sigi wrote:

Yea it does. But the thread has been answered and I can understand Misfits motivation to close the thread. We all like it to see packages up to date but I think wine is a special package in this regard. Using the AUR really is an answer in this case.

I dont know the forum policy but generally I think its lame to close a thread that has been informative for the most part.
I was kinda wondering what if a package maintainer just *disappears* for example, when is it realized that the package needs update..

I certainly disagree that the thread was informative. A handful of people on one side were suggesting the obvious and logical solutions, and a handful of people were not content with the suggestions offered. The only place for threads to go, in these situations, is into flame-land. The thread was already swinging back and forth between the two polarized opinions.

From the link in my sig on Arch forum etiquette:

INEFFECTIVE DISCUSSION ("BIKESHED")

Questioning or discussing the methods used by the Arch Linux development team will be monitored closely and locked if deemed unhelpful. If you have a question regarding Arch development, ensure that your topic poses a specific question. If possible, include a proposed solution or partial solution. Submitting code and patches for discussion is always a good thing.
Topics stating the equivalent of "there is a problem, we need to discuss it" have been repeatedly proven ineffective and inflammatory and will be locked with a warning from the moderation team. Arch is a Do It Yourself community. If you have a problem, find a solution, then post.

-italics mine.

I certainly urge anyone affected by wine being out of date to seek a proactive solution, but again, let's be proactive and pragmatic. If the OP or anyone who agrees with him wishes to further this discussion in such a manner, offering practical solutions, all would benefit from and welcome it.
Before replying in this very thread, perhaps we should ask ourselves if there is truly any value in it for the community...?

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#20 2008-04-28 22:16:46

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Misfit138 wrote:

Topics stating the equivalent of "there is a problem, we need to discuss it" have been repeatedly proven ineffective and inflammatory and will be locked with a warning from the moderation team. Arch is a Do It Yourself community. If you have a problem, find a solution, then post.

At first, I found the locking of the thread too soon. After reading this explanation and the forum etiquette I have to agree to your decision.

Last edited by Sigi (2008-04-28 22:23:54)


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#21 2008-04-28 22:48:28

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,170

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Sigi wrote:
Misfit138 wrote:

Topics stating the equivalent of "there is a problem, we need to discuss it" have been repeatedly proven ineffective and inflammatory and will be locked with a warning from the moderation team. Arch is a Do It Yourself community. If you have a problem, find a solution, then post.

At first, I found the locking of the thread too soon. After reading this explanation and the forum etiquette I have to agree to your decision.

I appreciate that, thanks.
I do regret that someone felt strongly enough about the thread being locked to actually post elsewhere about it, even selectively quoting half of my post. If that person is reading this, I would like them to know that moderating a forum will sometimes mean that parties will inevitably become frustrated over such decisions and judgments which the forums staff must make. These decisions must be made, however, to keep an orderly and efficient forum and for the benefit of the community as a whole.
We are all here to share this distro and community forum, and the responsibility falls upon all of us to keep this place as high-quality as possible. Just as the devs aim to achieve code-correctness, we, the forum members, must aim to achieve effective and helpful communication.
Closing threads is not a personal attack. Rather, may we all ask ourselves if our posts are effective, helpful, friendly, and solution-oriented.
smile

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#22 2008-04-28 23:24:06

neotuli
Lazy Developer
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: 2004-07-06
Posts: 1,201
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Dear god why are we discussing this crap?
Everyone who posted in this thread now has a homework assignment: get on http://projects.archlinux.org/git/ , pick a project you like, and submit a patch.

Chop chop. Let's go people.


The suggestion box only accepts patches.

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#23 2008-04-29 00:22:51

neowolf
Member
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2008-01-27
Posts: 105

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Crazy. I may not post too often but the forums here are one of the things reassuring me that Archlinux is the distro for me.

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#24 2008-04-29 02:39:01

teddyt
Member
Registered: 2008-02-01
Posts: 4

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

I posted in the closed thread, and yes, I am still going to leave.

However, at the risk of getting my account deleted, let me say one more thing. The rule that

"Questioning or discussing the methods used by the Arch Linux development team will be monitored closely and locked if deemed unhelpful."

is so wrong that there are not words to describe it. The attitude that "devs are God here, users are not to question or challenge anything we do" goes against everything that FOSS stands for. Frankly, the very presence of this thread is odd to say the least. Not all discussions about Arch are going to be positive.

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#25 2008-04-29 02:57:29

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,409
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

The attitude is not that "the devs are God".  The attitude is that if you are just complaining and not providing a solution of any variety then it is a waste of time.  In fact the locked thread was even worse than that.  Solutions was provided (build from ABS, use binary packages from AUR) and rejected in favor of further complaining.

While many complaints may be valid, the way to get things fixed around here is to propose, or even better implement, a working solution.  If it is seen as an improvement, then it will accepted into the distro.  Essentially useless arguments such as in the previous thread (package is out of date -> build it using ABS -> don't want to -> rinse -> repeat) add nothing to the community. 

I hope everyone here follows neotuli's advice and makes a contribution to an area they see needing fixed.  I have a patch in the works for pacman that I will submit as my punishment for posting here!

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