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#26 2008-04-29 02:59:47

Pnevma
Member
Registered: 2008-04-11
Posts: 112

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

teddyt wrote:

I posted in the closed thread, and yes, I am still going to leave.

However, at the risk of getting my account deleted, let me say one more thing. The rule that

"Questioning or discussing the methods used by the Arch Linux development team will be monitored closely and locked if deemed unhelpful."

is so wrong that there are not words to describe it. The attitude that "devs are God here, users are not to question or challenge anything we do" goes against everything that FOSS stands for. Frankly, the very presence of this thread is odd to say the least. Not all discussions about Arch are going to be positive.

It sounds like a mod thwarted some flame war and offered sound advice at the same time. Seriously, what is there to complain about?

It's entirely free.

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#27 2008-04-29 08:10:06

iphitus
Forum Fellow
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

neotuli wrote:

Dear god why are we discussing this crap?
Everyone who posted in this thread now has a homework assignment: get on http://projects.archlinux.org/git/ , pick a project you like, and submit a patch.

Chop chop. Let's go people.

And you should all expect to be marked on this assignment!

teddyt wrote:

However, at the risk of getting my account deleted, let me say one more thing. The rule that

We wouldn't do that... I'm not sure why you're so worried.

"Questioning or discussing the methods used by the Arch Linux development team will be monitored closely and locked if deemed unhelpful."

is so wrong that there are not words to describe it. The attitude that "devs are God here, users are not to question or challenge anything we do" goes against everything that FOSS stands for. Frankly, the very presence of this thread is odd to say the least. Not all discussions about Arch are going to be positive.

Where is that?

I'll be happy to revise it. That's a really really poorly written statement and what you interpret is not the intention. I think the point is that threads which are just for the sole purpose of bashing and flaming Arch are to be closed. Which is reasonable right? This does not mean that threads with calm criticism will be closed.

As for "devs are God here" -- devs have never been god here, we've never meant to be god here. When I started, devs were always members of the community, cept they had CVS access. And they are... some hang around here less so due to life and other things though.

The path to develop for Arch is really open. Start with the AUR, make or maintain some decent packages, help in the forums/mailing list, and you're practically guaranteed to pass in a TU vote. Very few are ever rejected. We're open and like all the help we can get.

Patches welcome!

Last edited by iphitus (2008-04-29 08:10:59)

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#28 2008-04-29 13:21:26

teddyt
Member
Registered: 2008-02-01
Posts: 4

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

iphitus wrote:

As for "devs are God here" -- devs have never been god here, we've never meant to be god here. When I started, devs were always members of the community, cept they had CVS access. And they are... some hang around here less so due to life and other things though.

The path to develop for Arch is really open. Start with the AUR, make or maintain some decent packages, help in the forums/mailing list, and you're practically guaranteed to pass in a TU vote. Very few are ever rejected. We're open and like all the help we can get.

Patches welcome!

I want to clarify that I'm not attacking anyone or trying to cause trouble. As for the AUR, most of the packages I need are already in the repos. The point I made in the closed thread is that Arch has the rule

"Check [extra], [core], [unstable], UNSUPPORTED, and [community] for the package. If it is inside any of those repositories in ANY form, DO NOT submit the package"

That means once a dev has taken ownership of a package, it's either updated by him/her or not updated at all. When a dev says "I don't have time" that actually means "I don't have time and I'm going to prevent anyone else from fixing the problem as well". I guess I don't understand why things work that way. The devs should concentrate on whatever goes on the install CD and leave packaging of most apps to the community. If the AUR was open to any and all PKGBUILDs, and those could make their way into [community], I would have nothing to complain about.

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#29 2008-04-29 13:40:00

iphitus
Forum Fellow
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

teddyt wrote:

That means once a dev has taken ownership of a package, it's either updated by him/her or not updated at all. When a dev says "I don't have time" that actually means "I don't have time and I'm going to prevent anyone else from fixing the problem as well".

That's the reality. We're people. We don't always have time. We're not monkeys who spend all day makepkg'ing. Most of us are students and/or have jobs and do Arch stuff when we can. Regarding ownership, any developer can update any developer's package (assuming they have any prerequisite knowledge).

Shifting the package around to [community] doesn't change anything... that just means a TU has to rebuild it. They're human too and that also depends on prerequisite knowledge.

If there's a significant problem with a package, you can generally expect a pretty quick answer. If it's just bob complaining because we havnt version bumped his package... thats why ABS exists. We need to prioritise things.

But hey, the community CAN help and contribute. If a package has issues, instead of submitting duplicate packages to the AUR, submit them to the bug tracker! No different! Open a bug and attach the new PKGBUILD/patches and it should get sorted out pronto.

If it's just a version increment, don't submit to the bug tracker... use ABS.

Last edited by iphitus (2008-04-29 13:41:47)

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#30 2008-04-29 13:48:28

FeatherMonkey
Member
Registered: 2007-02-26
Posts: 313

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

This is begging for some humour http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPlDP8vlrRs

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#31 2008-04-29 14:05:09

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,172

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

TeddyT, with all due respect toward your view, I would simply like to reply by saying that the system that is in place is working quite well. Indeed, it must be approaching 100% efficiency.
If, say, 10 or 20% of dev packages were chronically and woefully out of date, I would be forced to agree that there was a problem that needs to be addressed. For one, or even a handful of packages, (which are invariably able to be packaged with ABS, makepkg), I don't believe there is much of an issue worth discussing.
I certainly want you to enjoy using Arch. The devs and community all enjoy sharing knowledge, resources and time with fellow users. Nobody here wants a disgruntled user, no one wants confrontational interpersonal conflict.
However, there is a clear-cut division between the complaint which was raised and those who empathize with this viewpoint, and the solutions which are provided, those who code the tools, implement the web site flags, and provide the suggestions.
With this in mind, one could either continue to protest the system which is in place, (that is working flawlessly for a large majority), adopt the suggestions given, stop using the Distro, or get involved and volunteer their time to improve what they deem unacceptable.
I would certainly hope that one would use the suggestions provided to achieve a satisfactory solution rather than moving on to another distro.

Arch is largely 'what we make it'.

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#32 2008-05-01 00:26:02

cardinals_fan
Member
From: /dev/null
Registered: 2008-02-03
Posts: 248

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

I just wanted to say that the mods here are more open and reasonable than those at almost any other forum I've used.


Segmentation fault (core dumped)

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#33 2008-05-01 09:31:09

finferflu
Forum Fellow
From: Manchester, UK
Registered: 2007-06-21
Posts: 1,899
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

cardinals_fan wrote:

I just wanted to say that the mods here are more open and reasonable than those at almost any other forum I've used.

If you add to that the fact that most of the mods are also devs, who aren't elitist and unreachable, like it happens with a lot of other projects, then you really get the value of this community.


Have you Syued today?
Free music for free people! | Earthlings

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery

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#34 2008-05-01 21:06:26

Bapman
Member
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: 2007-09-02
Posts: 140

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

I agree with Finferflu ! I have never felt so closed to the devs/mods in a distro, even if I am not a developer of any kind. I think that this kind of behavior is what you get with success... A lot of people come from Ubuntu (as I did), but not anyone is ready for the Arch Way.
It's just a pity that when they realize Arch is not for them, they still want to leave bitter comments before running away...

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#35 2008-05-02 18:39:11

Onyros
Member
From: Lisbon, Portugal
Registered: 2007-10-11
Posts: 296

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

floke wrote:

Ubuntu *should* be more like Arch though wink

There, I corrected it for you smile

Then again, naaaaaaaaa. I like them just the way they are.

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#36 2008-05-02 19:12:00

floke
Member
Registered: 2007-09-04
Posts: 266

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Onyros wrote:
floke wrote:

Ubuntu *should* be more like Arch though wink

There, I corrected it for you smile

Then again, naaaaaaaaa. I like them just the way they are.

The internet needs a sarcasm button (you *did* know I was joking, right?) (I'll assume you did until otherwise informed).

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#37 2008-05-02 20:15:07

B-Con
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2007-12-17
Posts: 553
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Everyone wants to be an expert. Unfortunately, most people are lazy. You see people write reviews of a distro based on 40 minutes of use and a quick, pathetic scan of forum thread titles one day. It's no different from the modern media. Stick your nose in, snork up the first scent you get, then run like hell with your story.

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#38 2008-05-02 22:55:51

Onyros
Member
From: Lisbon, Portugal
Registered: 2007-10-11
Posts: 296

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

floke wrote:
Onyros wrote:
floke wrote:

Ubuntu *should* be more like Arch though wink

There, I corrected it for you smile

Then again, naaaaaaaaa. I like them just the way they are.

The internet needs a sarcasm button (you *did* know I was joking, right?) (I'll assume you did until otherwise informed).

I'm impervious to the use of figures of speech such as metaphors, irony and, extremely so to sarcasm. I'm like a blind man in a samurai sword shop when it comes to those kinds of things.

I also hate internet clichés, such as quoting,ironically, someone's remark, changing the premises' order and then claiming to have fixed that person's initial, yet faulty, proposition.

I like to make a funny, once in a while, though. I should probably asterisk my speech a little more wink

Last edited by Onyros (2008-05-02 22:59:41)

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#39 2008-05-03 00:16:40

B-Con
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2007-12-17
Posts: 553
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Onyros wrote:

I also hate quoting,ironically, someone's remark, changing the premises' order and then claiming to have fixed that internet clichés, such as a person's initial, yet faulty, proposition.

Duly noted. smile

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#40 2008-05-03 05:43:40

floke
Member
Registered: 2007-09-04
Posts: 266

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

B-Con wrote:
Onyros wrote:

I also hate quoting,ironically, someone's remark, changing the premises' order and then claiming to have fixed that internet clichés, such as a person's initial, yet faulty, proposition.

Duly noted. smile

You mean *noted* duly?

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#41 2008-05-03 13:51:57

Onyros
Member
From: Lisbon, Portugal
Registered: 2007-10-11
Posts: 296

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

floke wrote:
B-Con wrote:
Onyros wrote:

I also hate quoting,ironically, someone's remark, changing the premises' order and then claiming to have fixed that internet clichés, such as a person's initial, yet faulty, proposition.

Duly noted. smile

You mean *noted* duly?

See? *These* are the kinds of things that give Arch and its users a bad name.

On the next edition of Distrowatch Weekly: "Fracture in the Arch Linux community!", to which someone would also duly, promptly note, "Hey!, it's phrakture, not fracture!".

Last edited by Onyros (2008-05-03 13:52:29)

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#42 2008-05-03 14:54:56

peets
Member
From: Montreal
Registered: 2007-01-11
Posts: 936
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Hey!, it's phrakture, not fracture!

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#43 2008-05-03 17:22:11

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,622
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

peets wrote:

Hey!, it's phrakture, not fracture!

duel, lee noted.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#44 2008-05-03 19:37:24

B-Con
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2007-12-17
Posts: 553
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

cactus wrote:
peets wrote:

Hey!, it's phrakture, not fracture!

duel, lee noted.

Leave Mr. Lee out of this.

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#45 2008-05-03 20:05:00

skottish
Forum Fellow
From: Here
Registered: 2006-06-16
Posts: 7,942

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

Wow! If thread was anymore dead it would be a zombie movie.




More brains....

Last edited by skottish (2008-05-03 20:05:34)

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#46 2008-05-03 20:28:05

ornitorrincos
Forum Fellow
From: Bilbao, spain
Registered: 2006-11-20
Posts: 198

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

brains? Why would you want brains?

Oh...


-$: file /dev/zero
/dev/zero: symbolic link to '/dev/brain'

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#47 2008-05-03 20:36:37

bender02
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-02-04
Posts: 1,328

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

ornitorrincos wrote:

brains? Why would you want brains?

He's hungry.

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#48 2008-05-03 22:56:15

pelle.k
Member
From: Åre, Sweden (EU)
Registered: 2006-04-30
Posts: 667

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

The attitude that "devs are God here, users are not to question or challenge anything we do" goes against everything that FOSS stands for

I think that attitude is awsomel! cool
Now, lock the thread already big_smile

btw. that should be the new arch slogan;
"arch linux - freedom to rule over people"
hehe


"Your beliefs can be like fences that surround you.
You must first see them or you will not even realize that you are not free, simply because you will not see beyond the fences.
They will represent the boundaries of your experience."

SETH / Jane Roberts

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#49 2008-05-04 02:57:39

JaDa
Member
From: Sun City, CA (native German)
Registered: 2007-04-06
Posts: 210
Website

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

teddyt wrote:

That means once a dev has taken ownership of a package, it's either updated by him/her or not updated at all. When a dev says "I don't have time" that actually means "I don't have time and I'm going to prevent anyone else from fixing the problem as well". I guess I don't understand why things work that way. The devs should concentrate on whatever goes on the install CD and leave packaging of most apps to the community. If the AUR was open to any and all PKGBUILDs, and those could make their way into [community], I would have nothing to complain about.

Organization. That's all about!

Archlinux is not a small club anymore, it's getting bigger or down wink


openSUSE
Arch Linux
USALUG

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#50 2008-05-04 05:00:23

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW

teddyt wrote:

That means once a dev has taken ownership of a package, it's either updated by him/her or not updated at all. When a dev says "I don't have time" that actually means "I don't have time and I'm going to prevent anyone else from fixing the problem as well". I guess I don't understand why things work that way. The devs should concentrate on whatever goes on the install CD and leave packaging of most apps to the community. If the AUR was open to any and all PKGBUILDs, and those could make their way into [community], I would have nothing to complain about.

But devs are part of the community. Rather than fussing over the seldom-used installer (more than is necessary to keep it in line with system changes), doesn't it make sense for the most dedicated members of the community to keep meat of the distro up to date?

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