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#1 2008-06-10 03:58:47

czechman86
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From: In the Zaporozhian Host
Registered: 2008-05-26
Posts: 41
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Question about PHP

I am completely new to programming and have enjoyed Linux so much, that I would like to go into PHP next. Currently I am a University student with a dead end major (Russian Studies). I am looking to get a certificate in PHP over the course of this next year and to find a little better job with it than I could get with my current degree. I would do a Google search for this, however, I have come to like Arch and the community that surrounds it and wanted to know if any you fine web programmers out there, had any suggestions for free online courses in PHP or book that could be purchased. I was also wondering what a good PHP certification exam to take would be. I have seen the Zend exam and was considering doing a test prep for this after I learn a little more about PHP and SQL. Thank you for your help and suggestions!


Мой адрес не дом и не улица Мой адрес Советский Союз

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#2 2008-06-10 23:32:55

slide_rule
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From: loglogdecalog
Registered: 2007-09-16
Posts: 33

Re: Question about PHP

I would (and did) start by reading through the manual at php.net.  It's very well written, and users have commented on various sections, which can help to clarify certain issues, or provide interesting examples.  Definitely get a LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL PHP) running on your box, so you can try out examples and tutorials.

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#3 2008-06-11 02:32:54

Berticus
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Registered: 2008-06-11
Posts: 731

Re: Question about PHP

A little clarification, PHP is scripting, not programming.  I know in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter all that much, but taxonomy of coding, in general, for some odd reason is a pet peeve of mine.  So not only distinguishing between scripting, programming, and Java, but high, middle, and low level language taxonomy as well...  It's odd, I know.

I'll say that slide_rule's way is only good for freelance jobs.  If you want certifications, you need to know a little more than just how to script, but more back-end sort of stuff.  A great example is the taxonomy I just mentioned.  It won't be on the certification exam since it's a higher, more general topic, but itty gritty details like those will be.

What they're looking for is really a strong understanding on scripting, and knowing when to use what.  The idea is that you can make efficient scripts.  So knowing when to use which functions, since there's a bunch of them that do the same thing.  Also, knowing general computer science is always a plus, as you will learn how to optimize code.  Sometimes the least amount of code is the least efficient when it comes to executing.

The php.net manual is useless when it comes to the detail that you need to know.  For example, it won't tell you that the echo function is faster than print, the foreach loop is often slower than using multiple lines to use  a for-loop, or using an if-elseif-else is slower than a switch statement.

At least that's the impression I got when I looked at the Zend sample questions.  So if you're looking to get certified, you need to look elsewhere than just the php.net manual, because that really is only sufficient if you want to just do freelance scripting where small businesses don't really care about that sort of back-end detail.

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#4 2008-06-11 16:28:55

Kknd
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From: Brazil, Santa Catarina
Registered: 2007-08-15
Posts: 100
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Re: Question about PHP

Berticus wrote:

A little clarification, PHP is scripting, not programming.

Off-topic:
In my opinion, it doesn't matter if the source code will be compiled or interpreted, as long as it runs in a computer, so writing PHP "scripts" is programming.


Book suggestion:

I like the book PHP 5 Objects, Patterns, Pratice, from apress.

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#5 2008-06-11 17:45:29

[vEX]
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From: Sweden
Registered: 2006-11-23
Posts: 450

Re: Question about PHP

I would have to agree with Kknd about the definition.

Anyway, the way I learnt PHP was to simple decide on something to code and then read the online documentation as needed to reach that goal.


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#6 2008-06-11 17:58:30

Berticus
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Registered: 2008-06-11
Posts: 731

Re: Question about PHP

As  I said, to most people, taxonomy doesn't matter.  It does matter to other people, and I don't mean people like me who have these little pet peeves.

It matters to people who know a lot of languages who need to know when to use what language.  There isn't a single programming or scripting language that can be everything, so it's important for people, mostly software engineers, to know taxonomy, so they can pick a language most optimal for what they need to get done.  Most of the time, when you're dealing with very complex systems.  Instead of using one language for the whole system, you'll find out you'll be using COBRA to handle hardware, C++ to handle interface and C to tie everything together or something like that.

I mean when you're differentiating between an interpretted language (script) and a program, the issue is efficiency and speed.  No matter what you do, an interpretted language is inherently slower and less efficient than a programming language.  Even Java that is compiled, is compiled to Java Native Language or something like that, and requires the Java Virtual Machine to interpret it (that's why Java gets it's own branch).  I believe it's the fastest interpretted language, but how does it compare to a natively compiled program?  It's still slower.

Even when you know you're going to use a programming language, you still have choices, because each programming language can be split into a high, middle, and low level language.  Reasons for using different levels are due to how quickly do you need to write the program, how portable does the program need to be, how easy should other people be able to read the program, does it need to have low level abilities such as handling memory directly.  Then there's also the question about how your program is going to flow.  Is it functional or object oriented?

It's not so much an opionated matter when you think about it.  It's more along the lines of do you need this knowledge or not?  For most people, I'm willing to bet that's everybody who posts in this thread, that information is not important, they don't need to know it, because they handle very, very simple applications compared to the complex systems that do indeed require the programmer or scripter to know the difference.

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#7 2008-06-11 21:47:43

underpenguin
Member
Registered: 2007-02-01
Posts: 116

Re: Question about PHP

alright kids, back on topic smile

czechman86: I started programming with PHP. I think that it wouldn't be a bad place to start. It's syntax is very similar to other common languages (i.e. C++), and you can do neat stuff quickly over the web.
As mentioned above, install PHP & MySQL on your box and start playing around with stuff.

If you want to use apache you can, lighttpd in my opinion is a little nicer, still very easy to set up for PHP, and has a smaller footprint.

You also should install phpMyAdmin. It is a php-based MySQL frontend that is invaluable when messing around with databases.

This leads me to my next point:

If you want to be a professional PHP programmer, there are a host of technologies that are crucial to learn along with PHP. SQL, the language used to query databases is, in my opinion, the most important and definitely the most complex. 99.9% of all PHP jobs will probably at least require familiarity with SQL.
You should also look into HTML/CSS/Javascript/general web design. If you get a job at a large enough company, you shouldn't have to deal with web design issues, but if you work at a small company (like me), you will have to do everything from database design & application development to designing web pages and fixing CSS bugs neutral .

Overall, the best way to learn PHP is to program in PHP. Don't worry about certifications or any of that until you have a firm grasp on the fundamentals. Knowledge about the field during an interview is going to mean more than a certificate.

I hope this was helpful and not overwhelming smile

Good Luck

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#8 2008-06-11 22:08:42

GGLucas
Member
Registered: 2008-03-13
Posts: 113

Re: Question about PHP

.

Last edited by GGLucas (2022-06-24 08:11:32)

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#9 2008-06-11 22:18:36

moljac024
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From: Serbia
Registered: 2008-01-29
Posts: 2,676

Re: Question about PHP

real_programmers_binary.jpg


The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But if they tell you that I've lost my mind, maybe it's not gone just a little hard to find...

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#10 2008-06-13 09:15:44

czechman86
Member
From: In the Zaporozhian Host
Registered: 2008-05-26
Posts: 41
Website

Re: Question about PHP

First of all, thank you to all of you! The information and clarifications that you have provided here, have been invaluable. I am glad that I was able to be shown the realities of the programming world. It takes much more than PHP to get a start, but its a good place to start over all. With this in mind, I decided that instead of looking for a quick fix to my current problem, its better to solve it properly. Therefore, I have changed my major to CS and being my web programming/intro to ruby this summer. As was suggested by many, I plan to install PHP, SQL, etc and just begin to fool around and see what happens. Its how I got my start in Linux and I imagine that its the best way to move into this field. Also, I am sure that Binary will on the list one day! Thank you to all! You guys rock!


Мой адрес не дом и не улица Мой адрес Советский Союз

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#11 2008-06-13 11:44:16

Jerry
Member
From: Philippines
Registered: 2007-09-14
Posts: 126

Re: Question about PHP

Good luck czechman86, don't forget javascript if you wanted to get into web development.

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#12 2008-06-13 12:19:18

lloeki
Member
From: France
Registered: 2007-02-20
Posts: 456
Website

Re: Question about PHP

moljac024, you couldn't be farther away from truth.

of course I used the universal constants method to write this post wink

Last edited by lloeki (2008-06-13 12:20:52)


To know recursion, you must first know recursion.

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#13 2008-06-13 12:22:37

moljac024
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2008-01-29
Posts: 2,676

Re: Question about PHP

lloeki wrote:

moljac024, you couldn't be farther away from truth.

of course I used the universal constants method to write this post wink

I've seen that one. It's a lie. There's no emacs command for the butterflies.....believe me, I've looked wink

Don't believe everything you see on the internet tongue


The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But if they tell you that I've lost my mind, maybe it's not gone just a little hard to find...

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#14 2008-06-13 13:58:48

zenlord
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From: Belgium
Registered: 2006-05-24
Posts: 1,221
Website

Re: Question about PHP

I am in no way a programmer or scripter, but I have been able to produce several dynamic websites just by bookmarking the PHP-website and the MySQL-website and starting off with the "Hello world"-example.

If you're into open standards, you should swap MySQL for PostgreSQL.

Right now I'm building an intranet-website to allow our office to make new files, add contacts, calendar items and a few bookkeeping-things and make all these data interact with each other. So practice, practice, practice and in due time, you'll get the hang of it. It's rather fun to see your code improve (although there's no way of knowing if it's in any way optimal code or not unless you've studied this).

Zl.

Last edited by zenlord (2008-06-13 14:01:11)

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#15 2008-06-13 16:36:19

underpenguin
Member
Registered: 2007-02-01
Posts: 116

Re: Question about PHP

czechman86:
Wow! Great news. Developing programming skills is MUCH easier with a formal education. Glad to hear you'll be joining the ranks, & can't wait to help with homework tongue

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#16 2008-06-13 17:36:41

maddog39
Member
From: Philadelphia, PA
Registered: 2007-06-03
Posts: 73
Website

Re: Question about PHP

underpenguin wrote:

czechman86:
Wow! Great news. Developing programming skills is MUCH easier with a formal education. Glad to hear you'll be joining the ranks, & can't wait to help with homework tongue

I would beg to differ as I was self taught several languages prior to taking APCS and found that I got a far better understanding learning on my own with books then in a closed minded classroom. But whatever floats your boat I suppose.

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#17 2008-06-13 20:14:19

lloeki
Member
From: France
Registered: 2007-02-20
Posts: 456
Website

Re: Question about PHP

I was self-taught too, and received programming theory, development, modelization, project classes and so on. this was very instructive and structured what I learnt by myself in a very efficient way. granted, our teachers were first-class, very involved and dynamic. also, I believe it came at the right time, just when I was hitting the limits of my self-taught abilities. this allowed to span ky knowledge and understanding much farther than I could ever have alone, and now with this strong base I can again build up my knowledge by self-teaching. I guess I was very much lucky...


To know recursion, you must first know recursion.

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#18 2008-06-16 19:16:26

pedepy
Member
Registered: 2007-02-21
Posts: 198

Re: Question about PHP

eh .. since you guys seem so keen on making a ruckus over semantics, how does one 'get' self-taught ?
roll


go python.

Last edited by pedepy (2008-06-16 19:18:20)


chupocabra ... psupsuspsu psu psu

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#19 2008-06-17 02:09:22

mrunion
Member
From: Jonesborough, TN
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 1,938
Website

Re: Question about PHP

+1 on self-taught.

Make a good living at doing it too!


Matt

"It is very difficult to educate the educated."

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#20 2008-06-17 05:05:33

underpenguin
Member
Registered: 2007-02-01
Posts: 116

Re: Question about PHP

maddog39 wrote:
underpenguin wrote:

czechman86:
Wow! Great news. Developing programming skills is MUCH easier with a formal education. Glad to hear you'll be joining the ranks, & can't wait to help with homework tongue

I would beg to differ as I was self taught several languages prior to taking APCS and found that I got a far better understanding learning on my own with books then in a closed minded classroom. But whatever floats your boat I suppose.

Well, you are the one who decides whether a classroom is 'closed minded'. If you only learn what the professors say in class, then yes, you probably could get a better education on your own. But if you supplement your programming education with professors' knowledge, then you will get something you can't get on your own. This is especially true for certain advanced topics, I'm sure you'll agree that advanced data structures & algorithms are easier to learn when you have someone teaching you.

EDIT:

I just noticed you said APCS - I assume you are in secondary school still. Obviously things are a little different in high school. I'll grant you that CS classes in H.S. don't teach you much if you already know a bit of programming, but there is a reason that companies ask for a CS Degree for so many jobs.

Last edited by underpenguin (2008-06-17 05:18:21)

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