On the road to KDE 4.1

Bogart · 2008-07-29 23:13:13

Is anyone else seeing that KDE-4.1 uses a lot of memory, one reason being that when you close apps they don't really get closed? For example, I open konqueror, kopete and kmail. Then I close them all. I type on a terminal "ps -A" and see the processes still there (along with many kio_file and kio_http). All I can do is kill them every time.

Is it just me?

libervisco · 2008-07-30 01:44:23

Peyton wrote:

neowolf wrote:
libervisco wrote:
That said, I'm wondering if it's possible to somehow apply the gtk qt engine. It seems to be installed, but KDE configuration dialogs don't mention it and are also pretty sparse in general.
I think the version is arch is still the KDE3 one, so once that's updated we should be good to go.
The newest version is available through AUR, but it has a hard time with Firefox (and colors, at least on my system...but it's very possibel that I'm doing something wrong):
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=52346
Another user suggested using the qtcurve theme, which seems to be the only completely functional way to make applications consistent.

Thanks guys. I'll post in that topic.

Brandybuck · 2008-07-30 02:01:32

I don't want to rehash what a lot of people have said. But I do want to make known what I and other people like me want from an operating system. Perhaps we have chosen the wrong one.

Our desktop is our work environment. We don't use our computers to play, we use our computers to work. We want desktop that is rock solid, stable and does what is expected. We aren't luddites though, and do expect changes to come our way. But it takes us time to adapt to these changes. The reason we have chosen Archlinux, is because it has a reputation of being stable, and it makes it easy to apply fixes and updates.

It doesn't matter how great the Archlinux packagers are, KDE 4.1.0 is not stable or complete enough to replace our KDE 3.5.9. I can't abandon my old desktop. But I also want KDE4, to try it out and get used to it, because eventually 3.5.9 will go away. Archlinux has not given me a straightforward way to keep my current desktop while trying out the new desktop, and at the same time keep my system updated with current security and bug fixes. Yes, there are some configuration files I can edit to keep my system up to date, but that's must more time wasting I can't afford. Yes, I can completely uninstall kde and move to kdemod, but if I wanted kdemod I would already be using it.

neowolf · 2008-07-30 02:15:56

Bogart wrote:

Is anyone else seeing that KDE-4.1 uses a lot of memory, one reason being that when you close apps they don't really get closed? For example, I open konqueror, kopete and kmail. Then I close them all. I type on a terminal "ps -A" and see the processes still there (along with many kio_file and kio_http). All I can do is kill them every time.
Is it just me?

Not just you I'm afraid. I'll admit things are feeling a bit rough.

libervisco · 2008-07-30 02:31:08

Brandybuck wrote:

The reason we have chosen Archlinux, is because it has a reputation of being stable, and it makes it easy to apply fixes and updates.

It may have a reputation for being stable among bleeding edge distros, but by definition bleeding edge means a little less stability than you seem to expect. Just compare Debian Stable with Debian Sid, for example. Arch feels more stable than sid for me, but I wouldn't quite put it very close to Debian Stable.

So, as a bleeding edge distro it actually isn't very surprising to me that devs would want to adopt KDE4 so early, and while KDE4.1 might not be just there yet in terms of stability and solidity, it definitely broke through and is a big difference compared to KDE 4.0. KDE 4.1.x releases may yet solidify things even further.

Brandybuck wrote:

Yes, I can completely uninstall kde and move to kdemod, but if I wanted kdemod I would already be using it.

Well now you have a reason to use it.

Cheers

libervisco · 2008-07-30 02:34:00

neowolf wrote:

Bogart wrote:
Is anyone else seeing that KDE-4.1 uses a lot of memory, one reason being that when you close apps they don't really get closed? For example, I open konqueror, kopete and kmail. Then I close them all. I type on a terminal "ps -A" and see the processes still there (along with many kio_file and kio_http). All I can do is kill them every time.
Is it just me?
Not just you I'm afraid. I'll admit things are feeling a bit rough.

This might actually be intentional. Maybe it does so in order to make those apps launch much faster the second time you open them, but will be killed if memory for something new is needed. Sort of like cache memory.

Just a wild guess though.

neowolf · 2008-07-30 02:44:59

libervisco wrote:

neowolf wrote:
Bogart wrote:
Is anyone else seeing that KDE-4.1 uses a lot of memory, one reason being that when you close apps they don't really get closed? For example, I open konqueror, kopete and kmail. Then I close them all. I type on a terminal "ps -A" and see the processes still there (along with many kio_file and kio_http). All I can do is kill them every time.
Is it just me?
Not just you I'm afraid. I'll admit things are feeling a bit rough.
This might actually be intentional. Maybe it does so in order to make those apps launch much faster the second time you open them, but will be killed if memory for something new is needed. Sort of like cache memory.
Just a wild guess though.

That'd fit if it was keeping as many instances in the background as was most used, but I seem to be getting one for each time I open it period, so doubtful~

crouse · 2008-07-30 04:01:40

At first glance I had thought I didn't want to run kde4, and might switch to a different WM. I prefer KDE though, and after using it now for a day, I have to say it IS an improvement. The ability to search for programs in the "start menu" itself makes it worth it for me. Simply typing the first few letters of a program brings up a menu list of options...... very very cool.

Still alot to learn and get used to as far as changes go, but I must say I'm glad it's here. Many other distro's have had KDE4 for quite awhile. Went extremely smooth for me. I have @kdm set in my rc.conf file ....... no issues, worked fine.

Thanks for all the hard work that went into this, awesome.

appel · 2008-07-30 05:24:10

Brandybuck wrote:

I don't want to rehash what a lot of people have said. But I do want to make known what I and other people like me want from an operating system. Perhaps we have chosen the wrong one.
Our desktop is our work environment. We don't use our computers to play, we use our computers to work. We want desktop that is rock solid, stable and does what is expected. We aren't luddites though, and do expect changes to come our way. But it takes us time to adapt to these changes. The reason we have chosen Archlinux, is because it has a reputation of being stable, and it makes it easy to apply fixes and updates.
It doesn't matter how great the Archlinux packagers are, KDE 4.1.0 is not stable or complete enough to replace our KDE 3.5.9. I can't abandon my old desktop. But I also want KDE4, to try it out and get used to it, because eventually 3.5.9 will go away. Archlinux has not given me a straightforward way to keep my current desktop while trying out the new desktop, and at the same time keep my system updated with current security and bug fixes. Yes, there are some configuration files I can edit to keep my system up to date, but that's must more time wasting I can't afford. Yes, I can completely uninstall kde and move to kdemod, but if I wanted kdemod I would already be using it.

I suggest you stop using the word 'we' when refering to your own experience, you aren't a schizo are you?

KDE 4.1.0 is very stable, and I've had no issues with it.

I also use it on my main workstation.

I'd understand if /you/ were having problems, but then list them and stop being so general. What is the problem? Oh, it's not stable? Thats helpful. Second, you only come across as a winer when you don't take the responsibility to note that it's you who is struggling and rather make bizzare claims by referring to yourself as more than one person.

Allan · 2008-07-30 05:26:51

crouse wrote:

At first glance I had thought I didn't want to run kde4, and might switch to a different WM. I prefer KDE though, and after using it now for a day, I have to say it IS an improvement. The ability to search for programs in the "start menu" itself makes it worth it for me. Simply typing the first few letters of a program brings up a menu list of options...... very very cool.

That is in Vista too...

brynjolf · 2008-07-30 06:11:44

Anyone figured out howto apply global shortcuts to applications? I added a shortcut in menu editor but nothing happens.

MONODA · 2008-07-30 06:17:03

That is in Vista too...

! you used the 'V' word
Anyway, I think the devs took the right decision sinnce arch is a bleeding edge distro and that is how it will remain, I suggest to those who do not want to switch to KDE 4 to dual boot with debian testing or stable for a bit and see how they like it, I will do that.

Is pacman freezing up with anyone else at large updates? Is anyone else getting a dependecy problem with kde arts?

Cotton · 2008-07-30 06:28:02

Brandybuck wrote:

I don't want to rehash what a lot of people have said. But I do want to make known what I and other people like me want from an operating system. Perhaps we have chosen the wrong one.

Never forget, you ALWAYS have a choice: http://xwinman.org/ or http://distrowatch.com/

Zaphkiel · 2008-07-30 09:02:00

appel wrote:

Brandybuck wrote:
[...] what I and other people like me want from an operating system. Perhaps we have chosen the wrong one.
I suggest you stop using the word 'we' when refering to your own experience, you aren't a schizo are you?[...]

Whiners and now even shizos... This is really too much to stand.
I quote every single word from Brandybuck, so WE are two people reporting a problem, and not a schizo using 'we'. Bah. Nice try to start a flame.

I'm following this thread for two days, the only whiners I'm seeing here are the zealots saying kde4.1 is rock solid and bla bla bla, against all evidences; or who said that keeping kde3 and kde4 pkgs would be too much a waste of brandwith (what the mirrors system is supposed to do, then?). He was right, it's funny when people speak of something they don't know anything about; or the ones insulting every person posting critic comments ('schizo' is only the last one in chronological order).

As someone (me too) already said: no one, let me repeat, NO ONE ever blamed Pierre for "doing a bad thing packaging kde4.1".
I love kde and i think that 4.x series is the future, and i really appreciate kde4 developers' work.
That said, kde4 is unstable now. It will eventually become the greatest DE ever, but atm it is too much unstable for everyday use. It's unstable even if you use it to browse some internet pages and listen to some music. If you're a developer (like me) and make full use of all the 4 virtual desktops, have dozens of source files open for comparisons, an ide like eclipseCDT running, using yakuake with multiple tabs and kdesvn to update once in a while your project... you'll realize that kde4 is too much f*cking unstable.

What happens if your distribution WIPES OUT from its repositories your stable DE and forces you to install its unstable successor? And what if this installation will drop all your configuration files? And what if the [testing] stage finished in less than 24h and as a result a big issue like the conflict kdemod-kde was not even noticed?
What happens? You guessed it, the users (those who really use kde and not just to see the new cool plasmoids) complains.

Why don't packagers admit their mistake? They just screwed up this time. It's not that bad. What's really bad is they're treating us like idiots that whine because we loved soooo much that kde3-color-scheme instead of the kde4 one. This is lack of respect and there are no excuses for it.

Last edited by Zaphkiel (2008-07-30 09:09:14)

MONODA · 2008-07-30 09:16:26

Never forget, you ALWAYS have a choice: http://xwinman.org/ or http://distrowatch.com/

both of those have been my homepage for about a year

shining · 2008-07-30 09:18:03

Zaphkiel wrote:

What happens if your distribution WIPES OUT from its repositories your stable DE and forces you to install its unstable successor? And what if this installation will drop all your configuration files? And what if the [testing] stage finished in less than 24h and as a result a big issue like the conflict kdemod-kde was not even noticed?

As far as I know, the kdemod project doesn't have the equivalent of the [testing] repo.
[testing] only works for core and extra, where all the necessary rebuild are done.
So core and extra stays consistent, but there are always some periods where the other repo (community, kdemod, whatever) will lag behind.
Nothing new here.

Anyway, first this is not a big issue, and second, the kdemod ppl will fix it eventually.
That said, you have 3 options :
1) bring your help to kdemod to have things done faster
2) be patient
3) leave

There is no place for whining here, it is just a time and resources problem.

funkyou · 2008-07-30 09:48:06

shining wrote:

As far as I know, the kdemod project doesn't have the equivalent of the [testing] repo.

We have. KDE 4.1 was in our testing repo shortly after it appeared in Archs testing, and before that it was for a long time in our unstable repo...

shining wrote:

So core and extra stays consistent, but there are always some periods where the other repo (community, kdemod, whatever) will lag behind.
Nothing new here.

True. And it has gotten better over the last months, because we are on the lookout for bigger changes...

shining wrote:

Anyway, first this is not a big issue, and second, the kdemod ppl will fix it eventually.
That said, you have 3 options :
1) bring your help to kdemod to have things done faster
2) be patient
3) leave

KDE3 is already fixed in our repo: http://kdemod.ath.cx/bbs/viewtopic.php?id=892
However, this build conflicts with KDE4, but maybe we'll find a solution in the next days... But as KDE4 is unstable anyways, this shouldnt be a problem, or?

I find it somewhat funny that people who dislike KDE4 and want to use KDE3 still want to have a side-by-side installation? For what? Showing off a cool desktop to other people

shining wrote:

There is no place for whining here, it is just a time and resources problem.

To quote myself from this bug:

funkyou wrote:

Sorry, but "probably we can make them to switch to kdemod if you solve this problem fast" is not an argument for me, because its a "consumer one"... If they only install KDEmod when we are fast, well, thats pretty screwed...
Most of you guys still need to realize that Arch is mostly a Community Distro, and not a distro where everything happens automatically and you just update happily... Most people complaining here never did anything to contribute, they just whine...
We are 3 devs working on packages and we have currently about 600 packages to maintain, so if you dont contribute or want to help in any way, you better be quiet and just wait, because everything else is just unproductive and makes us answer questions instead of doing what we can do best
So, again: We are on it. And you as an Arch user should know how to handle pacman... If not, there is something new to learn for you, which also makes you a better citizen in the "Arch Economy"...
Thanks

kriga · 2008-07-30 10:00:37

funkyou wrote:

To quote myself from this bug:
funkyou wrote:
Sorry, but "probably we can make them to switch to kdemod if you solve this problem fast" is not an argument for me, because its a "consumer one"... If they only install KDEmod when we are fast, well, thats pretty screwed...
Most of you guys still need to realize that Arch is mostly a Community Distro, and not a distro where everything happens automatically and you just update happily... Most people complaining here never did anything to contribute, they just whine...
We are 3 devs working on packages and we have currently about 600 packages to maintain, so if you dont contribute or want to help in any way, you better be quiet and just wait, because everything else is just unproductive and makes us answer questions instead of doing what we can do best
So, again: We are on it. And you as an Arch user should know how to handle pacman... If not, there is something new to learn for you, which also makes you a better citizen in the "Arch Economy"...
Thanks

1+

shining · 2008-07-30 10:01:18

funkyou wrote:

shining wrote:
As far as I know, the kdemod project doesn't have the equivalent of the [testing] repo.
We have. KDE 4.1 was in our testing repo shortly after it appeared in Archs testing, and before that it was for a long time in our unstable repo...

That's impressive, you are even more advanced than [community] then Even though a community-testing was planned too.
Anyway, this wasn't a complaint on my part, I was just saying how I thought it was.
Was kde 3.5 / kde-legacy in that testing repo as well?

KDE3 is already fixed in our repo: http://kdemod.ath.cx/bbs/viewtopic.php?id=892

Wow, that was pretty fast then and make my question above less relevant.

So now all people whining and complaining can just stop doing that, and start using kdemod3 instead, courtesy of funkyou.

MONODA · 2008-07-30 10:05:33

how does KDEmod compare to KDE? is it as stable?
EDIT: also, can I run other QT apps like opera with kdemod?

Last edited by MONODA (2008-07-30 10:19:51)

attila · 2008-07-30 10:58:09

Brandybuck wrote:

It doesn't matter how great the Archlinux packagers are, KDE 4.1.0 is not stable or complete enough to replace our KDE 3.5.9.

+1 for your arguments and it is the same what i think at the moment.

Brandybuck wrote:

Yes, I can completely uninstall kde and move to kdemod, but if I wanted kdemod I would already be using it.

I take a look very early at a kde4 live CD and i was so much shocked that after i read that kdemod3 will survive so long as possible i give it a try. If you do a "pacman -S kdemod3-vanilla" than there be only very little differences to the old kde3 from archlinux. I try it first on my arch64 test partition and after this on my over the years fine tuned working kde3 without a problem and without a difference to before. Give it a try and you can enjoy this thread better.

Last edited by attila (2008-07-30 11:07:32)

AKL · 2008-07-30 11:14:50

I'm a newby to Linux, just switched from Windows to Arch at our home office, so may be I'm not familiar enough with social interaction 'the Arch way', but I'm really disapointed from what I'm reading from some of the developers and maintainers, who basically say that everyone who is complaining about the way the update was done is just a whining, selfish kind of person, only demanding from the community, not giving back something. Some of the developers "personally don't care".

Well, not all people are developers and are able to help in creating packages, actually I think most people who are using Arch aren't. The only thing they can do to help is give feedback. And this doesn't seem to be wanted, because the developers and maintainers know whats best for Arch.
If that impression is true, Arch is only for those who create it, all others may use it but should keep the mouth shut. Very nice. May be I got the wrong impression, may be not.
Arch is a very good distro, I chose it after one year of research to replace windows, and I didn't regret it. But to be good is one thing, to stay good is another.
May be some people should think about their attitude towards the user and how to deal with criticism, otherwise Arch can become even more lightweight than today, but in terms of user numbers. Should be easier to maintain, though.

Last edited by AKL (2008-07-30 11:22:41)

Gonzakpo · 2008-07-30 11:20:08

MONODA wrote:

how does KDEmod compare to KDE? is it as stable?
EDIT: also, can I run other QT apps like opera with kdemod?

It's just a modified/improved KDE3 so you will be able to do the same things you can do with a regular KDE installation. And yes, it's super/hiper/mega stable. I've been using it for months and It only had an issue. Anyway, it's fixed now

Regarding this issue, I'm not complaining here but the option to keep kdemod3 is not very "practical". They have made a rebuild to fix the conflicts between arch's KDE3 and kdemod3 but If I want to continue using kdemod3 I will have to uninstall it completely and then install it again. Now I really don't have the time to do that (I'm studying for the final exams) but If I had the time, I wouldn't go through the process of reinstalling my DE just to install an old version of it.
I'll just stop updating my system from now on. Maybe in a few weeks I'll have the time to do a KDE4 clean install and keep rolling my system

Someone in here said something that is true: Arch is an almost-bleeding edge rolling distro so it is natural to have KDE4 already. If you like to live in the past but reeeally stable you should use Debian stable.

Cheers!

Zaphkiel · 2008-07-30 11:33:12

Zaphkiel wrote:

What's really bad is they're treating us like idiots that whine [...]. This is lack of respect and there are no excuses for it.

shining wrote:

There is no place for whining here [...]

shining wrote:

So now all people whining and complaining can just stop doing that [...]

Sigh.
Ok, i think i learnt the general rule of this forum: if you post, you are a whiner. Still i can't comprehend what's the point in maintaining a public forum where posts are considered tiresome buzzs, but whatever.
Managing the kde3/kde4 situation is not really a problem for me, since i switched to arch after years of LFS. After that experience, there are really few things on linux related to package management that can put me on trouble.

In the future i'll keep maintaining my aur packages (yes, i do contribute, not just 'whine') and million miles away from this board that has succeded in pissing off the most patient man in earth -yes, it's me-.

Meanwhile i invite everyone blaming us 'whiners' to read this thread from the beginning and find a single 'whining' post, because i can only see bug-reports, users politely expressing their doubts, more advanced users expressing their doubts, technically discussing them and making their proposals. And the recurring answer was: "Ehy, you're all whiners. Shut up!".
I also invite "kde4.1 is stable enough and ready to replace kde3" zealots to read the kde4.1 announcement:

http://kde.org/announcements/4.1 wrote:

Furthermore, the new desktop shell Plasma, [...] it can replace the KDE 3 shell for most casual users.
[...]
While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable [...], some features you are used to in KDE 3.5 are not implemented yet.

Allan · 2008-07-30 11:48:33

OK, this thread is getting out of hand. KDE4.1 is in the official repos now and it won't be going back. So your options are to:
1) block the update and hope you don't run into update trouble later
2) try it - you might be pleasantly surprised
3) use the KDEmod 3.5 release which is now ready (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=52473)
4) if all else fails, go elsewhere

This thread is begining to get out of hand and attacks are becoming personal. Any more of that and I will be forced to close the thread.

Please keep on topic, which is that KDE 4.1 is released and the help you may need during your update to it.

Arch Linux

#126 2008-07-29 23:13:13

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#127 2008-07-30 01:44:23

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#128 2008-07-30 02:01:32

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#129 2008-07-30 02:15:56

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#130 2008-07-30 02:31:08

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#131 2008-07-30 02:34:00

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#132 2008-07-30 02:44:59

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#133 2008-07-30 04:01:40

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#134 2008-07-30 05:24:10

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#135 2008-07-30 05:26:51

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#136 2008-07-30 06:11:44

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#137 2008-07-30 06:17:03

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#138 2008-07-30 06:28:02

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#139 2008-07-30 09:02:00

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#140 2008-07-30 09:16:26

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#141 2008-07-30 09:18:03

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#142 2008-07-30 09:48:06

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#143 2008-07-30 10:00:37

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#144 2008-07-30 10:01:18

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#145 2008-07-30 10:05:33

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#146 2008-07-30 10:58:09

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#147 2008-07-30 11:14:50

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#148 2008-07-30 11:20:08

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#149 2008-07-30 11:33:12

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

#150 2008-07-30 11:48:33

Re: On the road to KDE 4.1

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