Arch is now on rank 15 !! (Distrowatch)

molom · 2008-10-04 00:24:14

haxit wrote:

Well do you see, DistroWatch is garbage. Thats that.

I learn something everyday

veek · 2008-10-04 08:03:48

AD28 wrote:

haxit wrote:
Tbh, I don't want Arch to be in the top, sorry
I love Arch too much to see it be disrespected like that.
How is a high ranking disrespectful? Why is the "it got popular, so now I must hate it" mentality so common? How does a distrowatch ranking matter period, regardless of whether it's low or high?
It's like people who want something until they get it.. then all of a sudden they don't want it anymore. I'll never understand certain dispositions I guess..

What I worry about is that the unusually high quality of this community will be in danger if Arch is overexposed.
Hopefully newcomers will assimilate the helpful, non-abrasive tone of peope on this forum.

What I think underlies the positive mentality of Archers is an urge to understand the system, solve
their own problems as far as possible, and experiment and be creative. Those are some of the elements I
see here.

Assuming the distrowatch ranking is a valid ranking of popularity, if Arch does climb too high, there may be a
flood of newbies who don't really understand Arch's philosophy (KISS) and what makes it great. Some people
have a nasty sense of entitlement, and get irritated when things don't work the way they think it should. So
far I don't think there's been much of that here, and hopefully it'll stay that way.

Last edited by veek (2008-10-04 08:05:08)

dhave · 2008-10-04 10:25:19

veek wrote:

What I think underlies the positive mentality of Archers is an urge to understand the system, solve
their own problems as far as possible, and experiment and be creative. Those are some of the elements I
see here.
Assuming the distrowatch ranking is a valid ranking of popularity, if Arch does climb too high, there may be a
flood of newbies who don't really understand Arch's philosophy (KISS) and what makes it great. Some people
have a nasty sense of entitlement, and get irritated when things don't work the way they think it should. So
far I don't think there's been much of that here, and hopefully it'll stay that way.

Actually, there's a lot a truth in what you're saying, though I don't know what can be done other than stage a negative publicity campaign.

Allan · 2008-10-04 10:27:47

veek wrote:

there may be a flood of newbies who don't really understand Arch's philosophy (KISS)

maybe.... are you sure there already hasn't been

celthias · 2008-10-04 12:44:48

veek wrote:

AD28 wrote:
haxit wrote:
Tbh, I don't want Arch to be in the top, sorry
I love Arch too much to see it be disrespected like that.
How is a high ranking disrespectful? Why is the "it got popular, so now I must hate it" mentality so common? How does a distrowatch ranking matter period, regardless of whether it's low or high?
It's like people who want something until they get it.. then all of a sudden they don't want it anymore. I'll never understand certain dispositions I guess..
What I worry about is that the unusually high quality of this community will be in danger if Arch is overexposed.
Hopefully newcomers will assimilate the helpful, non-abrasive tone of peope on this forum.
What I think underlies the positive mentality of Archers is an urge to understand the system, solve
their own problems as far as possible, and experiment and be creative. Those are some of the elements I
see here.
Assuming the distrowatch ranking is a valid ranking of popularity, if Arch does climb too high, there may be a
flood of newbies who don't really understand Arch's philosophy (KISS) and what makes it great. Some people
have a nasty sense of entitlement, and get irritated when things don't work the way they think it should. So
far I don't think there's been much of that here, and hopefully it'll stay that way.

If Arch did become more exposed and therefore a huge rush of newbies did come to try Arch out, I wouldn't worry about the community losing its charm too much. The people who get irritated will simply move on, leaving only a few angry/frustrated posts behind. The ones who fully understand Arch's do it yourself attitude and KISS philosophy will stay (more like be hooked). Arch can initially be tough to set up for some, it can require a lot of patience and deep thinking. Those that make it work for them generally have these qualities about them and they transfer onto the forums. My only fear is someone getting Arch working and becoming all arrogant about it to newcomers. The Arch community being generalized as "arrogant" is something I wouldn't like to see.

ArchArael · 2008-10-04 13:14:11

dhave wrote:

Actually, there's a lot a truth in what you're saying, though I don't know what can be done other than stage a negative publicity campaign.

IMHO Arch team should just continue as always. I like the job they do and if other people like it and accept Arch's KISS way than they are welcome.

Why should we bother about people that would like to transform Arch in another Ubuntu. If they like Ubuntu approach than they should stick with Ubuntu.

I think that the Arch developers should just say no to features and changes that are against Arch's simple nature and the users that are not comfortable with should just change distro. There are plenty of distributions out there.

Nothing against Ubuntu, but it's just not my cup of tea. Arch is.

Last edited by ArchArael (2008-10-04 13:21:56)

haxit · 2008-10-04 15:07:34

dhave wrote:

B wrote:
And I agree with haxit. Too much exposure, too much noobs. Too many stupid topics, too many stupid questions.I guess I can be quite negative .
So that's why a distro should never adopt a graphical installer.

Hah thanks

I am sorry if I offended anyone, but the previous comments kind of prove my point.
Too many noobs = not the same experience.

Last edited by haxit (2008-10-04 15:08:41)

molom · 2008-10-04 15:21:36

haxit wrote:

dhave wrote:
B wrote:
And I agree with haxit. Too much exposure, too much noobs. Too many stupid topics, too many stupid questions.I guess I can be quite negative .
So that's why a distro should never adopt a graphical installer.
Hah thanks
I am sorry if I offended anyone, but the previous comments kind of prove my point.
Too many noobs = not the same experience.

Everyone has to start of as a noob you know?

moljac024 · 2008-10-04 16:41:20

molom wrote:

haxit wrote:
dhave wrote:
So that's why a distro should never adopt a graphical installer.
Hah thanks
I am sorry if I offended anyone, but the previous comments kind of prove my point.
Too many noobs = not the same experience.
Everyone has to start of as a noob you know?

That's why there are distros geared toward helping noobs.

zodmaner · 2008-10-04 16:58:53

Hm... another thread that gives me a deja vu vibe. Didn't we already have a ton of this kind of thread in Arch Discussion?

What fascinated me is the similarity between this thread and other like it:

Someone post about Arch Linux getting popular. (?) -->> People worried that the popularity will attracted new users, which somehow most people will assume to be a (Linux) newbie, and that these influx of newbies will somehow change Arch into Ubuntu (or other distros) or "dumb down" the community. -->> Another group of people argues that not all new users are newbie and that most people also start out as newbie. -->> Both groups argues back and fourth endlessly. Unable to reach any conclusion until the thread cools down and die/forgotten, or goes up in flame...

While I understand people fear that something will change the Arch Linux they know and love, history have shown us that it is very unlikely to happen, thanks to our fearless devs and a lot of other reasons:

- Like most people have already said, Distrowatch ranking isn't a reliable measure of popularity, so claiming that Arch Linux is popular based on the ranking is kinda weak argument.

- The assumption that most new users will be a Linux newbie is not alway true. It is not necessary true that all new users is Linux newbie, some new users I know came from other distros, many have been using Linux for years.

- Likewise, the assumption that new users will somehow causes Arch to change into Ubuntu-like distro is also false. Not all new users like Ubuntu or want to turn Arch into Ubuntu. In fact, a lot of new users, even Linux newbie, like Arch the way it is, and won't have it other way. Ironically, a lot of people who proposed or want to add features similar to one found in Ubuntu is the users who have been using Arch for quite some time, for a variety of reasons (which I won't go into detail here).

In fact, the only thing I see that is worth worry about is this:

celthias wrote:

My only fear is someone getting Arch working and becoming all arrogant about it to newcomers. The Arch community being generalized as "arrogant" is something I wouldn't like to see.

But then again, over the year Arch Linux community have shown me that we are way above bashing new users (be they Linux newbie or not). So again, I'm not terribly worry about that happen.

The bottum line: All is fine in Arch land. No need to worry or overreact about nothing.

Last edited by zodmaner (2008-10-04 17:03:49)

Dusty · 2008-10-04 17:05:05

Well put zodmaner. The funny thing is how there's this 'rolling release' of new users who gain a bit of experience and then start worrying that Arch is changing or too popular or has too many newbies. Really they're just gaining experience compared to the next roll of new users and have 'new' ideas that aren't so new if only they'd bother to search.

Not searching... that never changes. :-D

Dusty

.:B:. · 2008-10-04 21:47:03

molom wrote:

haxit wrote:
dhave wrote:
So that's why a distro should never adopt a graphical installer.
Hah thanks
I am sorry if I offended anyone, but the previous comments kind of prove my point.
Too many noobs = not the same experience.
Everyone has to start of as a noob you know?

Yip. That's why there are those entry-level distro's

Edit: oops, moljac beat me to it.

And zodmaner: don't equate noob to linux user new to distro X. The 'fear' of many users is not about people jumping ship. The fear is [mind the caricature] about inexperienced Linux users running Ubuntu for a week, seeing it all runs slick, and thinking they can go 'to the next level' - the other side, where the grass is greener. They all try to jump, some make it, some barely, some don't.

Old greeks called it hybris... Always makes me think of it. I think people should know what they are up to, and should know what their strenghts and skills are (that view applies for me IRL as well as online). If a distro's philosophy fits yours, then it is for you. If it does not, don't complain, move on, or stick with what you used before. But don't start whining distro X needs to change to be 'friendlier' to its new users. It's that kind of topics that comes with an influx of users with little experience, and it can get quite annoying honestly - anyone around here can draw up a list of the 10 most frequent questions that can be answered by a simple google, forum or wiki search. Or the top ten of most frequent requests (although those sometimes contain requests that make sense - including doc and info ).

Last edited by B (2008-10-04 22:00:15)

AD28 · 2008-10-04 22:58:06

celthias wrote:

The people who get irritated will simply move on

Exactly.. to think that the core devs are going to grovel and cater to an influx of new users (like myself) is just a bit irrational.

haxit wrote:

Well do you see, DistroWatch is garbage. Thats that.

Well, "distrowatch is garbage" might be enough of a reason for some people, but to me that's the type of "reasoning" that blind devotion is made of.. it's not even a reason at all. Why do I hate grass? Grass sucks. But why? Grass is just lame. QED

Do I care about distrowatch rankings? No.. I have plenty of valid reasons, and many people have given valid reasons in this thread alone. Why does that mean distrowatch as a site is garbage? I check it often for new releases and updates.

If you want to equate distrowatch rankings with distrowatch, that's up to you.. if you want to hate distrowatch, that's up to you, but I hope "distrowatch is garbage" isn't the only "reason" you have. For me, it's the most convenient way to check up on new releases I might want to tinker with.

haxit · 2008-10-04 23:18:54

AD28 wrote:

celthias wrote:
The people who get irritated will simply move on
Exactly.. to think that the core devs are going to grovel and cater to an influx of new users (like myself) is just a bit irrational.
haxit wrote:
Well do you see, DistroWatch is garbage. Thats that.
Well, "distrowatch is garbage" might be enough of a reason for some people, but to me that's the type of "reasoning" that blind devotion is made of.. it's not even a reason at all. Why do I hate grass? Grass sucks. But why? Grass is just lame. QED
Do I care about distrowatch rankings? No.. I have plenty of valid reasons, and many people have given valid reasons in this thread alone. Why does that mean distrowatch as a site is garbage? I check it often for new releases and updates.
If you want to equate distrowatch rankings with distrowatch, that's up to you.. if you want to hate distrowatch, that's up to you, but I hope "distrowatch is garbage" isn't the only "reason" you have. For me, it's the most convenient way to check up on new releases I might want to tinker with.

Thats a good point. Hmm... I might need to come up with some solid reasons

moljac024 · 2008-10-05 00:25:39

It is true that there have been quite a lot of new users coming from Ubuntu, thanks to the Arch subforums over there.
This is what most worry may get out of hand. I don't having anything against new users but why switch from Ubuntu to Arch and then suggest that Arch move in the direction of Ubuntu (didn't you just come from Ubuntu ?)

And these new users won't help in decreasing those "package X has new version out, when will it hit repos" kind of threads. A few of those threads (if it is about an important package, or a security update) don't hurt, but when people open a new gnome 2.24 thread every day that's just annoying. And against forum etiquette.

molom · 2008-10-05 01:11:09

moljac024 wrote:

That's why there are distros geared toward helping noobs.

Yeah, but it depends what you call a noob. Someone might not call me a noob since I've been using Linux for a while opposed to a person who has never tried Linux and is just starting to. You might call me a noob because I don't know much about bash, the kernel etc. Some might call me experienced because I know many DE's and WM's that are available to Linux. And the list goes on. I moved here simply because I wasn't learning enough at the Ubuntu forums, and there were so many noobs there that made it hard to progress. Which is why I'm here .

Too many noobs = no progression for the noobs. You learn around experts, not noobs and there aren't so many experts in percentage compared to these forums I really like

molom · 2008-10-05 01:15:20

moljac024 wrote:

It is true that there have been quite a lot of new users coming from Ubuntu, thanks to the Arch subforums over there.
This is what most worry may get out of hand. I don't having anything against new users but why switch from Ubuntu to Arch and then suggest that Arch move in the direction of Ubuntu (didn't you just come from Ubuntu ?)
And these new users won't help in decreasing those "package X has new version out, when will it hit repos" kind of threads. A few of those threads (if it is about an important package, or a security update) don't hurt, but when people open a new gnome 2.24 thread every day that's just annoying. And against forum etiquette.

Some might be smart enough to learn that though. For example me, I commented on the VLC 'when is it coming up thread' and once Jim Raynor (Sorry I couldn't resist ) said that we aren't 'machines'. I learned not to comment about these things and didn't touch the GIMP thread that was posted (It was a bit stupid BTW since Gimp came out like less than a week ago ).

But yeah, there are some noobs that don't learn which can be a trouble.

AD28 wrote:

If you want to equate distrowatch rankings with distrowatch, that's up to you.. if you want to hate distrowatch, that's up to you, but I hope "distrowatch is garbage" isn't the only "reason" you have. For me, it's the most convenient way to check up on new releases I might want to tinker with.

Yeah, but I believe when people say distrowatch is 'garbage', they are referring to the rubbish rankings, not the rest. I find there to be a use for distrowatch, some of the reviews are good (Some are rubbish though, like there was a reviewer that couldn't see the point of Parsix opposed to Ubuntu, I was shouting 'HELLOOOO!!! Speed, Stability, less bloat and more packages!!!') and most important, its useful to know what distros have come out.

TO ALL!
The solution is simple! Refer all noobs to LFS and say its the best 'distro' out there.

Last edited by molom (2008-10-05 01:25:38)

veek · 2008-10-05 05:06:59

Well I didn't mean to start beating a dead horse again.

But since I opened my trap I'd just like to clarify since a lot of the preceeding posts were directed
at mine.

The only thing I was really trying to say is that I hope the positive nature of this forum survives as
the community grows. My comment was purely about the tone of conversation here.

I'm not trying to sound elitist--far from it. I recognize we all start as Linux / Arch beginners, and
am glad that newcomers are treated well here. I just hope that the newcomers/newbies carry on
the friendly tone of discourse that I've seen so far (And yes I know there are many Archers
that have been here longer than I have who could consider me a newcomer). I'm not worried
about people asking thousands of questions, or people trying to change Arch. Only on the quality of
interaction of the members. I guess it's just about being a little polite.

Sorry to push the conversation down a overused path. Just that there are many forums on the net,
but not so many where people actually try to be civil. That's why I've never felt the urge to make
a post like this on any other forum.

Anyway I'll shup up now, and make sure not to comment on this subject in the future

Last edited by veek (2008-10-05 05:10:45)

dhave · 2008-10-06 22:07:49

Here's one bit of good news: At least in the "past seven days" listing, Arch has slipped to #18, just behind Slackware. I guess our "boost the competition" campaign is starting to work.

On the other hand, I see that Gentoo is at #23 in this same listing, and I thought it was Gentoo that most people were boosting (I was, anyway).

If nothing else, we're seeing how even well-intentioned folks like us can be guilty of trying to rig the stats.

Data exists to be manipulated, right?

Lazer · 2008-10-07 00:17:59

Lots of kids out there, huh? If there is a better source of information about Linux and BSD distros than Distrowatch, I'd be glad to learn about this. Rank 15 or similar for Arch is well deserved because it balances quality with complete lack of understanding for marketing. It is hard to find a distro these days where a newbie almost needs a second computer to receive instructions what to do next.

The 3 "major" BSDs give an equally stubborn impression, this is why they are lacking a bit of everything: drivers, users, donations. PC-BSD was apparently a more intelligent approach, so its popularity is currently higher than that of Archlinux. Quality-wise Archlinux definitely belongs to the top 5, but that will never happen user-wise due to the "Arch Way". But that is probably not bad because one poster tells us that Archlinux should remain as unpopular as possible - although less users usually mean fewer donations. We would not want Arch developers to become fat cats, would we?

cardinals_fan · 2008-10-07 01:26:25

So long as Arch does not change because of them, every new user is welcome.

cactus · 2008-10-07 03:26:49

oh! oh!
I got a good one..

my 2 cents....locked.

Arch Linux

#26 2008-10-04 00:24:14

Re: Arch is now on rank 15 !! (Distrowatch)

#27 2008-10-04 08:03:48

Re: Arch is now on rank 15 !! (Distrowatch)

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Re: Arch is now on rank 15 !! (Distrowatch)

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Re: Arch is now on rank 15 !! (Distrowatch)

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#46 2008-10-07 01:26:25

Re: Arch is now on rank 15 !! (Distrowatch)

#47 2008-10-07 03:26:49

Re: Arch is now on rank 15 !! (Distrowatch)

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